Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2012 August 15

= August 15 =

Norman Brown - Guitarist for The Mills Brothers
The Mills Brothers had a great guitarist out front with them for many years by the name of Norman Brown. Might he be added to the list of Norman Brown please? I thought for sure that the current jazz guitarist of the same name must have been some relation but apparently not.

Thank You — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smith008 (talk • contribs) 07:13, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We'd prefer if an article be written about him first. There's not much point just adding his name to that list if there's no more info on him.  Would you be able to write it?
 * Oh, and BTW, this question would probably have been better suited to the Help Desk. Rojomoke (talk) 16:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Swimming and people of African origins
How come people of African descent do not dominate swimming as they do with running? --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 08:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * First of all, tell us why you think they should. --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  08:14, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Wasn't this just asked the other day? I seem to recall someone mentioning the musculature of African's legs being slightly different.  Dismas |(talk) 10:26, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep, found it. It's over on the Science desk.  Dismas |(talk) 10:29, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to say, the musculature of Cullen Jones and Anthony Ervin and Lia Neal don't seem to find their musculature to be much of a hinderance. The real answer is that there are purely social reasons: people from different cultures and social groups are raised in environments that favor certain sports over others, and as a result they are disproportionately represented at the highest levels of some sports but not in others.  Or to simplify it: people of African decent are not, on the balance, raised in cultures that value competitive swimming as a sport, so less of them get Olympic medals.  -- Jayron  32  17:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That is the politically correct narrative, but measurable physiological differences have a lot to do with it. μηδείς (talk) 18:12, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Not that I believe the following, but if I were to play the devil's advocate here, I would say that the existence of three African-American swimmers isn't a sufficient argument against the racial/physiological hypothesis. In the African-American population, there is a high degree of recent (genetically speaking) admixture of Caucasian, Native American and even Chinese genetic material (see the "Admixture" subsection of our African American article). It is theoretically possible that although these three individuals exhibit outwardly "African" physical characteristics, their musculature may not be inherently "African". Again, I'm not saying that is the case at all. I'm just pointing out a hypothetical which shows that, logically, the mere existence of the three swimmers named above can't disprove the hyposthesis as convincingly as would a medalist from, for example, Zambia or DR Congo or better yet, a comprehensive study of measurable physiological differences in individual swimmers.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 19:17, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your time, and directing me to the Science reference desk. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 21:39, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Can someone answer my first question? Why would good runners be generally assumed to also be good swimmers? Or vice-versa, for that matter. -- ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  03:53, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * They wouldn't, frankly. ("Good" meaning "world class", vs. merely competent.) It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at Phelps and other great swimmers vs. various types of runners and see that they have all focused on developing different muscle groups. Phelps has an upper body that would put Charles Atlas to shame. And I say various types of runners because the short-distance speed demons are all well-muscled in the legs especially, whereas the long-distance runners are the skinny ones, where muscles don't matter so much as endurance. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:00, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Right. So, this whole thread proceeded from a false premise, as I always suspected.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  20:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Given the above discussion, it seems the answer is cultural: they don't have the same opportunity to achieve great things in swimming as they do in other sporting disciplines. --TammyMoet (talk) 14:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Pardon me, Tammy, but oh, lord, with the cultural again. Am we supposed to believe that white people don't outsprint West Africans because they the former can't afford streets and sneakers and are ashamed to go out for track and field while the latter can and aren't?  On average, people of European and West African descent have different body shapes (especially in the limbs) and that results in different strengths.  Blacks have skinnier calves and bigger upper legs and buttocks than whites.  It gives an advantage in sprinting which is driven by upper leg strength.  Not so for swimming.  Neither is there any worldwide cultural difference between blacks and whites--that may be the case in the US and SA, but hardly everywhere.  Majority black countries with no lack of access to swimming, like Brazil, Jamaica and the Dominican Republic, do not produce great swimmers in the expected proportions.  This conclusion should not bother us. μηδείς (talk) 04:02, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I was actually thinking of the no visible role model aspect of culture here. In the UK we have a phrase "have you seen yourself lately?" which has been used by the ethnic minority communities to describe the lack of non-whites in the media. This has resulted in more ethnic minority actors, newsreaders etc being employed. I would argue it is crucial for people to see people like themselves in non-traditional roles, to inspire them to perform in those roles. So because we had Linford Christie in the UK, we now have Mark Lewis-Francis and Christian Malcolm: Christie is now an athletics coach and so the hierarchy is slowly changing colour. Culture does not equal poverty. I was hesitating to mention the term "institutional racism" but it sums up the situation. I would venture to suggest that, once black and Asian swimmers start winning medals at major championships, we will get more of them appearing. It may be that ethnic minority parents look at the overwhelming whiteness of swimming clubs and think "I won't be welcome here" and take their children to athletics clubs, where they think they will have a better chance of doing well. None of this is anything to do with physical attributes, or money, but rather it's the thought processes of parents, coaches, administrators... --TammyMoet (talk) 09:54, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the answer. I suppose if the only way athletes could achieve success were through subsidized school programs institutional racism might play or have played a part.  But great athletes literally raft from Cuba to the US have a chance at a career.  The driven ones find a way, and skilled athletes find private backers.  And frankly, I can't see socialized swimming pumping out a greater number of Olympians than the profit motive.  In any case, Blacks are not just Whites with darer skin and curly hair.  They have different physiques.  I'll end it there because even if this weren't the entertainment desk I have only personal experience to go on, not refs and links. μηδείς (talk) 01:54, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Do remember that there are more nations on this ref desk than just one: I happen to live in the nation that came 3rd in the Olympics medal table, and I do have some experience in this sort of community development work. If you can't see "socialised swimming pumping out a greater number of Olympians than the profit motive", then I guess you haven't looked at the 2nd nation in the Olympics medal table either, and you're too young to remember the dominance of the DDR/USSR/Soviet bloc during the 1960s and 70s. The establishments in the traditionally high-performing nations reflect the predominantly white populations in those nations. I guess the US must be so far in advance of the rest of the world at integrating ethnic minority populations into its sporting establishment that the only answer permissible to this question is "they physically can't do it". --TammyMoet (talk) 09:52, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Why no Olympic Order for Sebastian Coe
Hi,

Why was the Olympic Order not presented to Sebastian Coe in the closing ceremony of the London olympics? Gulielmus estavius (talk) 17:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * According to this he definitely got it, although it doesn't confirm exactly when Rogge presented him with it. - Ka renjc 18:57, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It also depends in which country you are located in, and what broadcaster you were watching. For example, the American broadcaster NBC edited it out of their telecast to the U.S., among other performances. Zzyzx11 (talk) 06:52, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems that the presentation took place at a reception at the Hilton Park Lane hotel on 13 August, rather than at the ceremony itself. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:58, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I watched the BBC broadcast, it was not in it. Any reasons why it was not part of the closing ceremony? Gulielmus estavius (talk) 17:18, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The presentation did not take place at the closing ceremony in 2008 either - there was a separate presentation event - http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-08/25/content_9707186.htm.  Presumably there were organisational reasons on both occasions.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:49, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Apparently, it is no longer listed on the IOC's current list of closing ceremony protocols.  I still don't know why it was removed (if it was in fact there previously) Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:28, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The pdf linked above contains an email address at the bottom, who could be contacted and may be able to answer the question. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)