Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2012 March 12

= March 12 =

Was Gubby Allen the illegitimate son of Pelham Warner
These two old time English Test cricketers have a seemingly partially concealed connection.

In Pelham Warner we are told "He was the father of 'Gubby' Allen, who had refused to bowl Bodyline." That's it, and there's no source.

In Gubby Allen, we have "Allen was knighted for 'services to cricket' in 1986. It completed a family hat-trick, as both his father Pelham Warner and grandfather had been similarly honoured." The sentence is sourced to a book, which I obviously don't have immediate access to. His article also tells us he was Australian born, but gives no explanation as to how he came to then be educated at Eton and Cambridge. It just says that he was. Pelham never lived in Australia. He just visited on MCC tours.

I've found a handful of sources that mention the connection, seemingly in passing, but no elaboration. I'm curious. Who was Allen's mum? How did he end up in England? Who paid for his up-market education? Did dad and son end up "together" as family?

Is this something that everybody just "knew", but never spoke about because of social mores of the time? HiLo48 (talk) 04:34, 12 March 2012 (UTC)


 * One collection of reminiscences by Philip Snow, A Time of Renewal: Clusters of Characters (p 111), brushes the topic with "... he had just warned a writer that he would 'take him to the cleaners' if he published that he was a son of Sir Pelham Warner. This was at a time when there was a publicized recrudescence of that belief.", possibly suggesting that the connection wasn't a fact.
 * The State Library of New South Wales has a collection of his letters, and two of them can be viewed here. They are addressed to "Darling Dad", but the way Allen refers to "you and Mum" or "Give my very best love to Mum" strongly suggests that his parents, at the very least, were in contact with one another (and probably married, and probably living together). Of course it is possible that he was born (1902) to Agnes and Pelham before they got married (1904) or Agnes was his stepmother and he called her "mum" all the same.
 * The same link also explains that he was born in Sydney and "taken to England to be educated" at the age of seven. Nothing more conclusive, sorry. I hope Dweller sees this thread, as he is both a refdesk regular and someone familiar with cricketeer sources. ---Sluzzelin talk  06:23, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

It's possible, I suppose, but at this moment, I think it's unlikely.

Allen was born in Australia in July 1902 and Warner was not on the English tour of Australia that arrived in November 1901, that would have fitted quite nicely. He did travel in 1902-03, but the team didn't arrive in Australia until March 1903. Incidentally, Warner did have at least one legitimate son: John, who succeeded him in his role with The Cricketer.

It's possible he had an affair elsewhere and his pregnant lover then moved to Australia, but with Cricinfo not linking the two individuals, I think we're on the very edge between OR and fiction. I need to look into this more, but may struggle.

A possible explanation for the letters, but not our articles, is that of metaphor - Warner was the joint tour manager for the infamous Bodyline tour. Allen famously refused to bowl the tactic, believing it to be ungentlemanly. Warner too opposed the tactic, so they had a commonality that may have prompted such an unusually warm epithet in the cauldron of Bodyline Australia.

Altogether fascinating. I'll take a look at the article histories and also leave a note for WP:CRIC. --Dweller (talk) 12:58, 16 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Allen's father on his birth certificate is identified as "Walter MCA Allen". Johnlp (talk) 14:21, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah. I had the wrong end of the stick with the letters. I thought you were saying they were addressed to Warner, calling him "Dad". They actually put paid to this nonsense. They're clearly addressed to his parents and make occasional reference in the third person to "Plum", Warner's nickname, proving Warner isn't "Dad". Cheers --Dweller (talk) 15:14, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The only mention I've seen of this was in David Frith's Bodyline book, where he states outright that there was a widely circulating rumour in the 1980s that Allen was Warner's son. Frith quotes Bob Wyatt as saying everyone knew this to be true. Frith goes on to suggest it was a realistic possibility. --Sarastro1 (talk) 18:28, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I find this very unlikely, based on the letter above, sent by Allen to his father (his mother was unwell) which includes several warm references to Warner - highly unlikely if the family knew Warner had been Mrs Allen's lover, even if that was before she met Mr Allen. --Dweller (talk) 19:59, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

new underground music
heyyyy guys!!!!!! ima huge fan of underground music!!!!!! so i love to feel like ive discovered new artist before they get big! lol! my latest obsession has been an underground rap artist called Stickz Greenz but i cant find any new stuff of his besides the old stuff ive already heard. do you guys know how i can find anything else on him? thanx!!!!!! kisses!!!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexissweetthang05 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I assume you have clicked on the links from a search!!!!!!? Astronaut (talk) 18:11, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you sure you put enough exclamation marks in there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? J I P  &#124; Talk 19:41, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Song Video
Where can I find a certain song? The lyrics include "Teach me, Lord, in the ways of the wise. Teach me, Lord, in the ways, oh-oh, in the ways of the wise". I found out that it may be Tony Melendez, "Teach Me In the Ways of the Wise". However, I haven't been able to find it online. Allen (talk) 21:02, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * For those who don't follow the Help Desk, the OP asked this question there originally. I gave a response of "Teach Me Thy Way, O Lord" by Benjamin Mansell Ramsey but the OP said that was incorrect.  Just didn't want anyone to waste their time by providing the same answer that I already offered.  Dismas |(talk) 23:15, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I have been trying to listen to Tony Melendez's "Ways of the Wise" online, but I can't find it. I keep finding other songs on the CD, also entitled Ways of the Wise. I don't want to download it unless it actually is the song I mentioned above. What do I do? Allen (talk) 02:05, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * His website doesn't seem to have any videos or MP3s.
 * I searched Google, using the chorus, name, and artist, but to no avail. YouTube doesn't have the song. Tony Melendez's site doen't have any clips (as far as I could easily see). Allen (talk) 05:08, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know where I can listen to Tony Melendez's "Way of the Wise" online? Or legally download it? Thank you!  Allen (talk) 20:17, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Werner and Otto Klemperer
In addition to his acting talents, Werner Klemperer was an accomplished classical violinist. Did he ever perform with any of the orchestras conducted by his father, the famed Otto Klemperer? (Also, Johanna Geisler — Werner's mother and Otto's wife — was an opera singer. Did she ever perform with her son?)   → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 21:14, 12 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Werner's article says; He can be seen playing in the violin section of the New Philharmonia Orchestra on the EMI Classics DVD "Otto Klemperer – Beethoven Symphony No. 9." at a concert performed on November 8, 1964, at London's Royal Albert Hall.. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  01:22, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I see nothing! I hear nothing! Clarityfiend (talk) 02:59, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Jack. I must have missed that part.   → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 06:46, 13 March 2012 (UTC)