Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2013 February 5

= February 5 =

Pawn Stars - experts
I happened to see the first episode of Pawn Stars again today. I've seen almost all of the episodes. In the first episode Rick says "Normally I like to talk to the expert one-on-one, but today I made an exception." However, in subsequent episodes, the expert is almost always on with the person that comes in the store. The exceptions are when the expert is not available or the client is in a rush and can't wait. Why the discrepancy? Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 00:34, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I haven't seen the show but Rick apparently works in a real pawn shop which sometimes consults experts. You say it was the first episode so I guess he was referring to his work before the tv show. If he wants to haggle a good price then he may want to control what the customer hears. It was probably deemed more viewer-friendly for the show if the expert and customer are shown together and maybe talking together. Don't expect reality television to portray reality. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:04, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

TrekNation
Hi there,

I've currently nominated a few Good Articles, and a question has come up over the referencing of Code of Honor (Star Trek: The Next Generation). The reviewer has questioned whether TrekNation and also "Jammer's Reviews" (which is hosted by TrekNation). TN has previously been used in the Featured Article These Are the Voyages..., and was directly mentioned in the nomination paragraph for that article with it being described as "TrekNation is a long-standing website owned by UGO Networks and the Hearst Corporation".

Jammer's Reviews has not been used in any GAs previously (my initial Star Trek related articles did not include it as I was concerned that it was simply a fan site). However upon investigation, I discovered that the opinions of the writer and editor of the site was held in such esteem by the Star Trek: Voyager crew that they flew him out to Los Angeles to pitch story ideas to them at one point. Admittedly they didn't use any of his ideas, but they cared about his opinions enough to do that, and so I think that he can be considered a reliable source due to that context (in this case, he went back afterwards and reviewed each episode of The Next Generation after the series ended - I believe he started with Voyager).

Would it be possible to get some opinions on whether or not you think these would meet the criteria to be considered reliable? Thanks. Miyagawa (talk) 10:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * You would probably be better off at the Reliable sources/Noticeboard. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 13:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll move the discussion over to there. Miyagawa (talk) 14:52, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Why is so much Swedish pop and rock in English?
This goes back to the days of ABBA but even new Swedish pop music in English. What's up with this?--67.85.176.244 (talk) 16:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Love it or hate it, but English is one of the most widespread languages on the planet. If a band is fine with regional success, they sing in their native tongue. But if a performer wants a shot at worldwide stardom, they will need to sing in English. Many artists, such as Shakira, Celine Dion and Jennifer Lopez, have released songs in both English and their native languages. I would think a Swedish band would be no different. -- McDoob  AU93  16:39, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * FYI, Jennifer Lopez is from New York. Her native language is English. D Monack (talk) 01:02, 7 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed, although there are other languages with vast numbers of speakers, such as Spanish. StuRat (talk) 16:53, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Yep, but that wouldn't have helped to crack the Australian market. Everyone knows that, if you haven't made it in Australia, you've hardly scratched the surface of international success, not even if you've made it in old New York, or gay Paree or even London town.  ABBA certainly knew this.  They didn't even have to mention Australia in the title of ABBA: The Movie, that was just taken for granted, obviously.  To this day, I still wonder why they didn't migrate here, become Australian citizens, and become our joint Prime Minister.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:32, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Apparently they did sing in Spanish: Oro: Grandes Éxitos. StuRat (talk) 21:08, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * ...and also in French, German, Japanese.... and Swedish. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:57, 6 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I found it interesting that ABBA sang English with American accents but when interviewed in English had Swedish accents. --TrogWoolley (talk) 16:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, with songs, they could take their time with a voice coach and learn how to pronounce each word. In an interview, there's no opportunity to do that. StuRat (talk) 16:29, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Did ABBA in fact sing with an "American" accent? Is that documented? I find it generally quite hard to distinguish between a Gen Am and a RP accent in songs unless perhaps for example in Pink Floyd's spoken, rather than sung, lyrics like where they mention the Bahth and the Pahth on Dark Side of the Moon. μηδείς (talk) 18:18, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Accents most definitely show up in singing; the fact that some British singers sometimes sing with what sounds like an American accent (and visa versa, c.f. Billy Joe Armstrong or Bruce Springsteen in his recent single "Death to My Hometown" which takes a Celtic twist, even in his singing) doesn't mean they are indistinguishable. It's been a trend in British popular music over time that has changed: In the early days of Rock music, many British acts were working in musical forms from America: R&B and the Blues formed the core inspiration for much of the early British rock scene, including the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, The Who, etc.  When performing such music, there was a tendency to sing with an American accent, which fit in with singing a distinctly American style of music.  You can see the difference particularly in music by, say, The Who, compare Happy Jack, a song which comes from a British musical theater tradition, to I Can't Explain which has distinct elements from American forms (call-and-response Blues, etc.).  You can definitely hear the difference in accent.  It should also be noted that, over time, British singers have, more and more, begun to sing in their own vernacular.  A big part of the Punk and New Wave movements in Britain were to abandon the American accent in the vocals (John Lydon and Joe Strummer both obviously sing in their speaking accent).  The recent Blue Eyed Soul revival in British music (Amy Winehouse, Joss Stone, Adele) and British hip hop (M.I.A. show this as well.  Compare their singing to Dusty Springfield and you can hear the British accent come through much more prominently in the more modern singers than in the earlier singers, though all of them seem to be able to switch between British and American accents from song to song, and they use the American accent much more prominently than singers which are known for singing other styles of music, for example the Arctic Monkeys' Alex Turner and The Libertines Carl Barat sing in distinctly British accents, but again they come from a British Punk tradition.  This article does a good job of breaking down singing accents.  -- Jayron  32  19:21, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * See Rock 'n' roll best sung in American accents. Alansplodge (talk) 20:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I take a little issue with how he draws his conclusions in that article. He does note the existence of the phenomenon, but I don't see how he connects the dots between "Most pop music is sung in American accents" to "It is done that way because it's physically easier to sing that way".  As I noted above, Robert Plant sings like American blues singers because he's singing American Blues.  George Formby didn't find it particularly hard to sing with a British accent.  Bon Scott sung with a clear strine accent in many songs.  The reason why people naturally drop into American accents when singing pop (read: Rock and derivatives) music is that's the expectation of the form.  The article I cited above shows clear counter examples; even of American singers taking on British accents when singing to mimic British styles (Billy Joe miming The Buzzcocks for example).  I don't think there's anything mechanically which makes singing pop-rock music in General American any easier, it's just what the form expects.  I mean, Keith Urban sings in a Southern American accent (which is quite distinct from GA) because he sings Southern American music.  Country singers from all over fall into that southern "Twang" because the form expects that accent, not because it's "easier" to do so.  Why does Jim Croce, a native Philadelphian, adopt an English accent for Time in a Bottle if it's easier to sing in General American?  It isn't easier to do so; Time in a Bottle is an English Madrigal, and the form contains the accent.  He sings Bad Bad Leroy Brown in African American Vernacular English because it's an R&B song, and R&B is sung in African American Vernacular English.  Sorry, don't like the conclusions there.  Doesn't stand up to scrutiny.  -- Jayron  32  20:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, here's the research. Enjoy. I hold no opinion (unusually). Alansplodge (talk) 20:33, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I think this is one of those correlation vs. causation things, and the research itself doesn't support the stance in the popular article noted above. Skimming the introduction and abstracts, the research appears to say that 1) New Zealand singers use distinctly American vowels when singing pop music and 2) They don't do so deliberately or with the intent of mimicking the American accent.  That's still a far leap to the conclusion that it's easier to sing in General American.  Merely because they aren't conscious of their vowel choices doesn't mean that they are doing so because it is physically harder to maintain their native accent from a mechanical point of view (that is, singing in American is physically easier), the possibility that their subconsciously adopt the expectations of the form mandates the use of that accent.  Is there any similar research on New Zealand singers that use New Zealand vowels, or on forms of music native to the New Zealand dialect?  -- Jayron  32  21:01, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. We sing pop music with an American accent because we're culturally "primed" to do so. Here's Alfie Boe singing "Bring Him Home" from Les Misérables - he's English, and he's singing in English, but he keeps lapsing into a pseudo-Italian accent because he's trained as an operatic singer, and Italian is how operatic singers are primed to sing. It takes effort to overcome that conditioning, which is why the New Zealand subjects in the study struggled to sing in their own accents. I know that, for example, Belfast singer-songwriter Duke Special made a special effort to sing in his own accent, and in some of his early recordings, before he started calling himself Duke Special, he sounds like he's putting on a fake Belfast accent. It sounds natural now, but I've heard him do Ian Dury's "Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick" live, and he lapses into cod-cockney. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:00, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

The fact that nearly 90% of Swedish people can speak English - see Languages of Sweden - is probably also a factor. Alansplodge (talk) 20:02, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Jim Croce English accent? He sings "there never seems to be enough time to do the things you wanna do..." and "I wanna spend..." as well as saying "/trɛʒər/, not /treʒə/ as Brits do.  See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyTfbtZeGeU.  I think this is the same as people accusing me of having a British accent, because I enunciate and have conservative Philadelphia vowels.  Without references, I find it hard to accept ABBA has a specifically American accent.  They seem to have a general English pronunciation that perhaps predates the bath-trap split.  There are certainly no diagnostic Americanisms in their singing of which I am aware. μηδείς (talk) 23:25, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * He sings in two different accents: Consider the way the song changes between the two opening verses, and the chorus. The style of singing changes drastically, and his accent with it.  The verses are sung in the style of a traditional English folk song, the melody and melodic phrasing, like the way he bends the notes, are distinctly English, and his accent (his vowels and diphtongs especially) take on a subtly English character.  When he gets to the chorus (the part you note), his singing style changes drastically, as he starts singing (the melody and the mannerisms in his singing) take on the style of American folk music (esp. 1960-1970s singer songwriter styling) and the accent changes to his more natural General American accent.  The musical form determines the accent used.  -- Jayron  32  02:58, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * You may want to argue that he sings in two different registers, high and low, if you want to make that claim. (I wouldn't, there's really not enough evidence)  But I can assure you that no one from the Delaware Valley would think he had any accent at all any part of that song, vowels or whatever. I'll even ask some informants and get back to you. μηδείς (talk) 04:50, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
 * There's nothing British about the way they pronounce "Dancing Queen". I'd go with Trans-Atlantic accent myself. Alansplodge (talk) 01:20, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * One of the most noticeable features of ABBA's songs, at least the earlier ones, is how they mistreat the English language - examples here. But it can be lovable - there's a moment I treasure in Agnetha's version of "If I Thought You'd Ever Change Your Mind" (here) where she sings "jewelled..." as "yewelled".  Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:13, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * By Yumpin' Yiminy! Well, they were probably doing the best they could. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:24, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * She says "jugoslayvia" at 2:34 in a youtube-linked interview: . This thread actually taught me something. A young and spritely grade-school teacher once told our class that ABBA learned their songs phonetically and didn't actually speak English. – Kerαu noςco pia ◁ gala xies 00:41, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
 * In my experience, you would be hard pressed to find a Scandinavian over 11 and under 70 that wasn't a reasonably fluent English speaker. Many speak it better than we do. Alansplodge (talk) 01:09, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I've run across many people in the USA who are totally comfortable with English and still mispronounce some words. (And some of those people were born outside the USA. [Insert rimshot here.]) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:23, 9 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Talking of such things, Keraunoscopia: I finally got to see The Yellow Rolls-Royce on TV yesterday (which I can now cross off my list of movies that I've been hearing about for decades but always managed to miss; a terrible admission for a Rattiganite of long standing). In the final vignette, Ingrid Bergman played a terrific role, in which she drove Omar Sharif to Yugoslavia from Trieste and certain events ensued (no spoilers here, thank you).  She only mentioned the name of the country once that I heard, and she was meant to be an American (her Swedish accent was never explained), but there it was: "Yugoslayvia".  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  17:53, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The country's name was once routinely spelled "Jugoslavia" on maps, so that might account for ABBA's troubles. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:05, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It is spelt with a J in Swedish as well. However, I believe being used to am English spelling it with J or Y won't make much difference for most Swedes when speaking English. As exaplified by yewelled above, j->y misponunciations are very common, since Swedish (generally) doesn't have the English J sound. There are plenty of cognate words that begin with j in both languages, so as a Swede you might subconciously consider the hard j a charachteristic of English, and apply that to all words that you think of as beginning with a soft j if they were Swedish. Basically, it's hypercorrection after being corrected enough for saying yoke, yet-set, yump, yew etc. /81.170.148.21 (talk) 22:33, 10 February 2013 (UTC)


 * B. or B., I forget which, said he liked writing in English because not every word has final stress. —Tamfang (talk) 19:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Football refery
Hello

In my country not many people watch football. I have recently become interested in the play, but I see people in blue shirts on the field. My friend is saying these are the referys. Is it they who make the screaming sound from the field? And what are their job?

Two of them are on the side of the field. They hold on to a pole with yellow paper hanging on. Sometime they put in in the air. What does this mean?

Thanks, Jialin from China — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jialinzhen (talk • contribs) 16:51, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * It's spelled referee. Also, are you asking about American football or Association football (soccer) ? StuRat (talk) 16:55, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * It is Soccer.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jialinzhen (talk • contribs) 17:28, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, that matches your description. See Referee (association football), and Assistant referee (association football) (also called linesman) for the two people with a flag on the side. There is only one referee inside the court. He makes the decisions and indicates it by blowing a whistle, maybe the screaming sound you mention. His clothing varies and is sometimes changed to not be similar to either team. The assistant referees wave a flag to signal what they see to the referee, mainly when the ball leaves the field or there is offside (association football). They cannot make decisions on their own but the referee usually follows their flagging. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you.. But what does it mean when he puts yellow card in the air? Everybody gets angry always when he does so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jialinzhen (talk • contribs) 17:44, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * When a player behaves bad he gets a red card. When the referee behaves bad he gets the whole team after him... Zaminamina (talk) 17:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * See Referee (association football). The referee holds up a yellow card to a player to indicate a caution for misconduct. Some players get angry over this. A second yellow card to the same player results in a red card, i.e. a send-off for the rest of the match (with no substitute player allowed to take his place). PrimeHunter (talk) 18:58, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Other than displaying yellow and red cards, the main job of the officials is to keep track of the remaining time in the half, and to keep it secret from the players. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, what? The "main job" of the officials is to keep the game flowing and ensure that the laws are upheld.  That involves a lot more than "displaying yellow and red cards".  As for keeping the remaining time secret from the players, that is not an issue at all - the players know full well how much time is remaining.  How do the officials keep it a secret, in your view, by hiding their watches from the players?  lolol. --Viennese Waltz 06:06, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a snide attack on a football rule. Association football says: "The referee is the official timekeeper for the match, and may make an allowance for time lost through substitutions, injured players requiring attention, or other stoppages." Unlike many other sports, for example American Football in Bugs' home country, this added time is not displayed on the public game clock, so the players don't know how much time has been added. This was alleviated some years ago by a rule in the linked article: "In matches where a fourth official is appointed, toward the end of the half the referee signals how many minutes of stoppage time he intends to add. The fourth official then informs the players and spectators by holding up a board showing this number." The exact amount of remaining time is often critical to know for players and coaches in American football where you can frequently time an attack to score in the last seconds. See Hurry-up offense. In comparison, soccer has short attacks, frequent ball losses and few goals, so the remaining seconds would rarely influence tactics if the players knew. Furthermore, there is a practice that the referee doesn't end a half during a dangerous attack. With short attacks and no public game clock, he can just wait some seconds. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:49, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * What sign do the refs hold up to inform the crowd that the game is fixed? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:09, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * One that says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", Baseball Bugs. --Dweller (talk) 16:06, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Major league baseball games stopped being fixed around 1920. When was the fixing of soccer matches stopped? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:24, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * If you believe that, you'll believe any answer I give you. --Dweller (talk) 16:36, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * . If you're going to assert that organized gambling is still fixing Baseball games something akin to a source would be nice.  -- Jayron  32  18:46, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * My comment was about Baseball Bugs believing it isn't happening. The source was provided by Baseball Bug's previous post. --Dweller (talk) 09:42, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "Isn't" happening is the key. 1920, last I checked, is not in the present tense. In contrast, the fixing of soccer matches qualifies as recent. And it's not about "believing" no MLB games are fixed, it's about there being no such claims and no such evidence. But if you've seen a credible source that alleges recent MLB game fixing, it would behoove you to provide a link to it, and eddycate the rest of us. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:51, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Baseball now uses the much more straightforward methods of simply letting the rich teams buy all the best players, and not doing drug tests during the season. APL (talk) 01:13, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Typically, PED users are not trying to lose as the 1919 White Sox were. And players have been suspended in mid-season. Rich teams do get the best players; the Yankees dynasty didn't happen by accident. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:20, 9 February 2013 (UTC)


 * See also Fergie time. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 13:52, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

You might like to read our article Association football, which is available in Simple English and even Chinese. --Dweller (talk) 16:13, 7 February 2013 (UTC)