Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2013 October 10

= October 10 =

Non-American/Canadian quarterbacks in the NFL
Just a quick question: have there ever been Non-American or Non-Canadian quarterbacks in the NFL? American quarterbacks born in other countries, quarterbacks from American Samoa, and those who only played quarterback in NFL Europe/NFL Europa don't count. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:42, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There was Rohan Davey & I think at least a few more.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  14:59, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * David Whitehurst is another.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  15:26, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * These count according to the specification of the question, but note that they both went to high school in the US. I think that any quarterback who makes it to the NFL would pretty much have to grow up with the game, which I assume means growing up in the US or Canada. I know there are placekickers who grew up elsewhere playing soccer -- I wonder if anyone in the NFL in a non-kicking position grew up outside the US and Canada. Maybe a track star turned wide receiver? Duoduoduo (talk) 19:11, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * He's hardly current, but in the early 1990's running back Christian Okoye was a very well known for his non-American background. A Nigerian native, he'd never touched a football till he arrived in the U.S. For college. -- Jayron  32  23:39, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * In 2010, one editor compiled a List of current non-American players in the National Football League in his user space. Some of the athletes listed there grew up in the United States too (and some of them are Canadian), but some didn't. I just don't know anything about American football and can't distinguish which positions are "kicking" and which aren't. ---Sluzzelin talk  19:45, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No quarterbacks in the list in 2010, which is what the OP asked about. It could be useful to compile a current list, though that doesn't cover "have there ever been..." As regards positions, kickers are specialists who do various types of place kicks, whereas punters typically just punt the ball, i.e. they are their own "place" holders. Kickers have been from international territory for decades now, typically schooled in soccer. To save a tedious explanation of other positions (which you can always read about at your leisure), I see both offense and defense on the list and both linemen and backs (men behind the front line), in fact just about every normal position except quarterback. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:22, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The practice of using non-American, ex-soccer players as placekickers dates from Pete Gogolak, a Hungarian-born soccer player who introduced "Soccer-style" placekicking to the NFL. Most modern NFL fans wouldn't recognize "non-soccer-style" kickers (so-called "straight-on" kickers), the last significant straight-on kicker I can remember is probably Mark Moseley, who retired in the 1980s.  For much of the 1960s and 70s, nearly all of the "soccer style" kickers in the NFL were foreign born (Jan Stenerud, Garo Yepremian, and John Smith come to mind from that era) however since the success of the Gogolak brothers, Stenerud, Yepremian, Smith, and others, all American players began to be trained in soccer-style placekicking, until by the mid 1980s, there were no straight-on kickers left.  Punters have been less often foreign born; though punters from Rugby and Australian Rules Football traditions are not unknown in the NFL.  Darren Bennett is the first that springs to mind.  -- Jayron  32  02:09, 11 October 2013 (UTC)


 * No, I don't think so, besides what Marketdiamond found. I went through all the relevant subcats of and couldn't find anything that fit your criteria exactly. A few came pretty close, though:


 * Lou Molinet: Born in Cuba, played in the NFL and as quarterback but apparently not both
 * Pandel Savic: Born in Macedonia, played quarterback for Ohio State University but not pro
 * Samuel A. Weiss: Born in Poland, played pro football with the Glassport Odds, but not NFL --BDD (talk) 20:12, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice finds BDD, Glassport Odds, that takes me back!  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  15:09, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Do real Swordsmen still exist?
Hi Guys.

I am very interested in (sport) fencing, which leads me to a question: are there still any real swordsmen who have actually fought with swords in a real fight, who had actual combat experiences? I know, that there are many people, who study medieval or asian combat arts, but what about "real" sword fighting? Most of the people I know who practice these ancient arts, have never used a bladed weapon against a real opponent. I realize, that there are massive differences between sportitive training and real combat situations. Have these old martial arts become sports and the swordsmen gone extinct? Or are there countries, where the people still learn real fencing (I am not familiar with all cultures)?--92.105.189.138 (talk) 15:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Other than knives and possibly bayonets, I cannot think of where bladed weapons are used in combat. -- Jayron  32  15:22, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * One sided "real fights" still go on with no less than a fencing coach.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  15:30, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Just look for news of "sword attack" in a news aggregator for instances of people using swords in real combat situations, I guess. Effovex (talk) 17:18, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "Bring out the gimp"... -- Jayron  32  18:08, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "Who's Zed"..."Zed's dead."  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  20:37, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The last swordsman was killed in the late 30's. μηδείς (talk) 18:26, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Heard a rumor that was in the 80s & somehow that swordsman lived on to fight another day with MacGyver, James Bond & Zorro . . . nah couldn't be.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  20:37, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Sword versus sword fights are rare but Japanese officers used swords in WWII and large machetes are still commonly used in Africa, especially the Rwandan Genocide. 75.41.109.190 (talk) 21:02, 10 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Military officers in many places are still issued with swords, but these are largely for ceremonial purposes, they are very rarely used in battle. The British WW2 leader Winston Churchill as a young officer took part in a cavalry charge with sabres drawn against Dervish sword and spearmen in Sudan.  This is often said to be the last meaningful cavalry charge in battle, but there were others much later.  According to Churchill the last charge involving British troops took place in 1941 in the Middle East.  Spinning  Spark  21:14, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought that some of the Northern Alliance might have been carrying swords in the cavalry movements with U.S. Special Forces but I am mostly finding metaphorical sword entries on Google. Rmhermen (talk) 03:14, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Here is one but it claims the American was using the sword Rmhermen (talk) 03:21, 11 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Our Cavalry article has the details on "last cavalry charges". The last by British forces was in 1942 by the Burma Frontier Force against the Japanese. The "last classical cavalry charge" was by Polish cavalry of the 1st "Warsaw" Independent Cavalry Brigade against German infantry at the Battle of Schoenfeld in March 1945. Not mentioned was a Polish cavalry versus German cavalry skirmish at the Battle of Lasy Królewskie in 1940 1939 (the Germans were surprisingly keen on horses), which is my candidate for the last sabre against sabre battle. Alansplodge (talk) 12:28, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Interestingly, I have found two quotes from two actual swordsmen that are very informative:

"There are swordsmen who have never fought a real fight and have only trained in their comfortable dojos (training/fencing room). Let me tell you, that they have no idea how to react in combat as a true warrior should know well." Master Miyamoto Musashi (Japanese Ronin, 17th Century).

"A man who carries a sword but has never used it is about as absurd as a man who carries a book but cannot read." Master Jude Lew (German fencing master, 15th century)--92.105.189.138 (talk) 17:05, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

There are rumors about real swordsmen on the Philippines and in Germany (practioners of the Mensur). Does someone know more?--92.105.189.138 (talk) 17:10, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia has an article about Bishnu Shrestha, an ex-Indian Army Gurkha soldier who fought off an armed gang who were robbing a train with his khukri. He killed three of them and injured eight so badly that they were unable to run away with the others. Another source quotes him; "“They had carried out their robbery with swords, blades and pistols. The pistols may have been fake as they didn´t open fire,”. He received a serious cut to his left hand. Alansplodge (talk) 16:58, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Channel 5 live on web
Can anyone explain why Channel 5 (UK) do not provide a live view on the web? One can get free "watch again" streaming from the Channel 5 site and free live feeds of Channel 5 are available elsewhere (from TVCatchup for instance). It seems very strange that Channel 5 do not provide this themselves.  Spinning Spark  20:20, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Generally web archiving, data storage & server space can get very expensive very fast. If organizations like Channel 5 choose not to devote time & resources monetizing/marketing their online content then the driving 'business reason' for online investment is gone.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way   20:27, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, but what makes their business model so different from, for instance, the BBC and Channel 4, both of whom provide live feeds. And why would live streaming cost more "web archiving, data storage & server space" than the service that Channel 5 do offer, the watch again service.  To do that they have to archive all their programmes anyway, and they have to serve them to all their customers that access the service.  It seems to me that a catchup service is way more IT resource heavy than a streaming service.  Spinning  Spark  20:56, 10 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Channel5 is TV on the cheap. Its a mostly virtual channel, like the hundreds of bought-in shoveller channels in the neither regions of the Sky EPG. Those channels exist only as some leased space in video servers in the playout centre of a large provider like Arquiva, with no studio or live announcer or anyone "there" in real time at all. Channel 5's business model is mostly to replicate this, outsourcing as much as it can. It still has some live content, chiefly news (outsourced to ITV) and various sports events (outsourced to different live broadcast sports companies). Demand 5 is a skin over an off-the-shelf IPTV system intended for those kind of shovelware channels (which abound in almost every cable and satellite TV system the world over). Integrating that with live content, coming from a range of providers, isn't something so easy to buy off the shelf and integrate in someone else's datacentre. Other broadcasters, especially the BBC, own their own infrastructure and playout facility, and the BBC especially has invested in the additional engineering to get both live and recorded TV on iplayer.  87.113.178.42 (talk) 22:36, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * @Spinning Spark:"to me that a catchup service is way more IT resource heavy", TVCatchup is not a part of or related in any business way to Channel5 as far as I can tell (might be wrong on that). It would be similar to SkyNews showing a clip from some BBC studio news show where a politician had a meltdown, that doesn't mean BBC and SkyNews are the same business entity it just means Sky got permission to use the clip.  The BBC wouldn't be paying SkyNews' bills everytime that BBC clip gets aired.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way   03:20, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * @87.113.178.42, thank you for an informative answer. @Market St., you are completely missing the point and have misinterpreted what I have been saying. I know TVCatchup has nothing to do with Channel 5.  I have been talking about Channel 5's own catchup service, Demand 5 which is most definitely run by Channel 5.  I mentioned TVCatchup because live streaming is available there - that is, it shows that Channel 5 do not have a legal problem with their TV on the web.  Spinning  Spark  17:53, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Your link doesn't take me to video links, but then I'm in the US which has started blocking. <sup style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;"> Market St.⧏ <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;"> ⧐ Diamond Way  20:19, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
 * British TV companies don't let you see their programmes if you're abroad, presumably in case they want to sell them to you later. Alansplodge (talk) 11:18, 13 October 2013 (UTC)