Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2016 August 16

= August 16 =

Crossing the finish line
Athletics at the 2016 Summer Olympics – Women's 400 metres just finished. As they approached the end, the leader was challenged by a second runner, so the leader dove for the end instead of running across like normal, and she was judged the winner. This prompted a question: in international athletics events, when is a runner judged to have crossed the finish line? Does any body part count (cross with one finger, and you've crossed), or does a greater portion of the body need to cross? Nyttend (talk) 02:16, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * As per IAAF rules, it's any part of the torso that has to cross. In most cases this would be the chest or scapula. The guidance goes so far as to indicate seperate parts of a persons anatomy that count. See IAAF Photo Finish Guidelines at Nanonic (talk) 02:32, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Wow, amazingly detailed resource. Thanks!  Nyttend (talk) 02:41, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * They also mentioned that fact at some point after the race. In old films and photos of races, when they used a tape across the finish line to determine the winner, the runners stayed upright with their hands back so that their torso would hit the tape first.This, for example. With laser-based sensing devices and the like, they don't have to do that anymore. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:02, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

As far as I know, there is nothing to indicate she dived to beat the challenger. It looked like she just overbalanced and stumbled as she reached forwards for the line. I believe she would've won if she had not fallen. I just wanted to add this, because the phrasing above makes it sound like a deliberate tactic.86.20.193.222 (talk) 10:12, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The Anatomy of a Dive Across the Finish LineNYT: But there was no gold medal thievery at work here; no moral slippage. Miller’s diving finish would have been completely within the rules even if it had been intentional, which she and her coach, Lance Brauman, both insisted it was not. “She gave everything she had, and her legs gave out at the line,” Brauman told reporters after the race. “It was not intentional.” -- ToE 14:45, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and I'm absolutely sure it wasn't deliberate. It's pretty obvious that just falling like that isn't gonna help at all. There's been lots of discussion of it - some people (on Reddit) showed a video of a baseball player running and comparing a "dive" to keeping going, but baseball is very different.
 * There's absolutely no way she gained any advantage.
 * Unfortunately, some idiots have been editing her Wikipedia bio article, and e.g. changing 'runner' to 'swimmer' and putting stuff about 'diving' all day. 86.20.193.222 (talk) 16:22, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Silver/Bronze medallist breaking previous records ?
Are there instances of a competitor in Olympic games breaking the previous Olympic/World records but not getting the gold medal because someone else broke the record with a higher margin to claim gold ? - WikiCheng | Talk 06:18, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes I'm sure I heard that it's happened this year. I shall now go and research that and come back to you. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:39, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It's very difficult to research from scratch because the official site is erratic to say the least. It doesn't give proper names for a start ("Pendleton Pendleton" apparently broke a record sometime). So good luck with this... --TammyMoet (talk) 08:53, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * It's reasonably common.
 * For example, in the cycling men's sprint a few days ago - in the qualification round, Callum Skinner got a new Olympic record of 9.703s, and later, his teammate Jason Kenny got 9.551s.
 * Or in the weightlifting, Men's 56kg - Om Yun-Chol lifted a new Olympic record of 303 kg, and went on to get silver, when Long Qingquan lifted a  world-record 307kg to get gold.
 * These are examples only; I'm sure it's happened more times in the last few days, and will happen again in the next few.
 * 86.20.193.222 (talk) 08:50, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks ! Another related question: Are the timings achieved in the heats considered for records ? Let us says an athlete runs (200 m sprint, for example) in record time in the heats. But he may not even win a bronze if for some reason he runs slower in the finals. If the winners don't break the record he set in the heats, will the record be in his name ? - WikiCheng | Talk 09:07, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * P.S. I just realised something interesting; in the Rio Women's team pursuit cycling, there was no Olympic record, because the distance had changed. So in qualifications, lots of teams set new Olympic records - Poland (4:28.988), then Italy (4:25.543), New Zealand (4:20.061), and Australia (4:19.059) - all before GB got started, and broke the OR in every round, to get gold medal. (USA got silver, Canada Bronze). So, that's 16 athletes who held an OR for a few minutes... 86.20.193.222 (talk) 09:14, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Re 'related question' - yes, ORs can be set in heats/qualification rounds. I'm sure some athletes have set them and then not medalled, but I don't know any examples without complicated searching. Maybe someone got disqualified in a final, or was injured, or something?
 * I know that 4 days ago, Alice Aprot Nawowuna ran under the previous OR in the Women's 10,000m but only came 4th - but that record didn't count, because of course the winners set new records before she did. Just, rather unlucky for her, to break a record and not win a medal. Also, someone really needs to update her Wikipedia bio — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.193.222 (talk) 09:35, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thinking about your question further, I realised that World Records are often set at other events. So... I remembered the example of Paula Radcliffe, the current women's world-record holder for the Marathon, but she has no Olympic medals. 86.20.193.222 (talk) 09:55, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The marathon, in particular, is unlikely to see a world record set at the olympics. This article at FiveThirtyEight notes that the optimal temperature for marathon is about 43 °F - I don't believe a summer olympics has ever been held where those kinds of temperatures could be expected, and they've often been much hotter. Even in places cooler than Rio and Athens, fast marathons (like London and Berlin) aren't held in the heat of August (London in April, Berlin in late September). FiveThirtyEight jokes that to get a world record in the marathon in the olympics, they'd have to move the marathon to the winter games. Looking at this article about the climate for  Sochi, had the marathon been in the 2014 Winter Olympics (at the end of February) they'd have been right in the sweet spot. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 13:50, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * One of the swimmers in a relay medley set a world record as an individual. Because he was the lead-off swimmer, his leg counted as a normal 100m backstroke race. Rmhermen (talk) 15:15, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Shooting at the 2012 Summer Olympics – Men's 25 metre rapid fire pistol has an example; Alexei Klimov broke his own world record in the qualification round, but could only manage fourth in the final. Warofdreams talk 16:36, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Why did the Soviet Union skip pre-WW2 Olympics?
Dear All,

The excellent Wikipedia pages on each country's history at the games includes one on the Soviet Union at the Olympics. It reveals that the Soviet Union first entered the Olympics in 1952, at Helsinki. But the USSR was formally founded in 1922, so existed for numerous Olympic Games before entering (1936, 32, 28, 24). Why didn't they enter?

Many thanks. 185.12.194.57 (talk) 12:24, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Looking at the opening summary on the Soviet article, it states that "The Olympic Committee of the USSR was formed on April 21, 1951, and was recognized by the IOC on its 45th session (May 7, 1951)." So in other words, they weren't recognized by the IOC to compete before 1952.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 13:05, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * But the IOC recognised them almost immediately after they formed a committee, suggesting that they chose not to before or that they had reason to believe the IOC wouldn't recognise them before. I'd be interested if anyone knows which is the case, and the reasons behind either decision. 185.12.192.57 (talk) 13:07, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Here's a blog article about the issue. Basically, they weren't interested. --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:11, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I wonder if the political leadership changes which were going on during the early 1950s had anything to do with why they had a change of plans. Stalin was in poor health from 1950 on or so, and actual policy decisions fell increasingly on others, and I wonder if that had anything to do with the Soviet Unions opinion on the Olympics.  It should also be noted that there were no Olympics in 1940 or 1944, and the Soviet Union was not very stable during the pre-war years.  Just some speculation on avenues to research here.  -- Jayron 32 13:46, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Maybe related to the original question I have another question: When did the Soviet Union start having competitive sport to begin with (e.g. a Soviet Union-wide soccer championship, track and field championship, swimming championship, etc., as opposed to mass sport, in schools, factories, collective farms, the armed forces, etc.) which would seem a prerequisite for the existence of elite athletes which would itself be a prerequisite for participation in the Games. Can anyone even think of the name of an early Soviet champion in whatever sport prior to about 1950? Who knows, maybe it was just not part of early communist ideology to stress competitive sport as opposed to mass sport and it took them some time to realize the propaganda benefits of taking part in international sport. Contact Basemetal   here  14:06, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The paper linked to in the blog article mentioned above (presumably peer-reviewed and certainly more useful than the discussion below) mentions Georgy and Seraphim Znamensky. --Wrongfilter (talk) 18:40, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Stalin was engaged in widespread genocide during the pre-WW2 years, and massacres during WW2, and participation in the Olympics would have been a natural place for those groups who were the target of this genocide to protest and get press coverage. So, it would have generated negative worldwide propaganda, not positive. StuRat (talk) 14:33, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * StuRat, given the current discussion, I'm surprised you continue to treat the ref desk as a "here's a thought that's just occurred to me about any topic that comes up" page, rather than a place to give referenced answers to factual questions, as it's meant to be. --Viennese Waltz 15:09, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * My answer is better than Jayron's "I wonder if..." answer above. If you doubt that Stalin engaged in genocide or massacres, I can provide all the links you need. StuRat (talk) 15:16, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * That's not what I'm asking for and you know it. I'm asking for sources showing that the reason the Soviet Union didn't take part in the Olympics before 1952 was a fear of bad publicity. I'm not holding my breath, put it that way. --Viennese Waltz 15:22, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * You expect that Stalin published his real reasons (as opposed to the "party line" of not taking part in decadent capitalist games) ? And what's your excuse for attacking me, but not Jayron ?  Just a "jump on the bandwagon" thing ? StuRat (talk) 15:27, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * How do you know what his real reasons were? --Viennese Waltz 15:31, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I didn't claim I did. I offered a possibility, as did Jayron.  You attack me, and leave him in peace.  As for that "discussion", it's a baseless complaint, as the 9 opposes vs 2 supports shows. StuRat (talk) 15:33, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * VW has offered nothing to the OP. His comments should be hatted. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:35, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * You need to stop attacking users in front of the original poster. Take your complaint to the user's talk page or keep your trap shut. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:29, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * And that's why Nazi Germany didn't take part of or hosted the games; or did they?--TMCk (talk) 14:42, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * 1936 was well before the Holocaust got into full swing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:56, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, according to the Final Solution "This policy of deliberate and systematic genocide across German-occupied Europe was formulated in procedural terms by Nazi leadership on 20 January 1942...". Also note that the 1936 Summer Olympic Games were held in Berlin, where the Nazis worked hard, along with friends in the IOC, to prevent any protests.  There was a remarkable similarity to the 2014 Winter Olympic Games, where Putin put off his invasion of the Ukraine until after the games had ended, to get positive publicity.  StuRat (talk) 15:25, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I see. So Germany was a big happy family of "Aryans" and Jews until 1942, I guess--TMCk (talk) 15:39, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * No, but they hadn't started the mass murdering yet. And truth to tell, no one much cared abou the plight of the Jews. Read MS St. Louis for insight. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:41, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * So the threat of boycott was only based on blacks not allowed? History is getting stranger by the minute.--TMCk (talk) 16:06, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * THE MOVEMENT TO BOYCOTT THE BERLIN OLYMPICS OF 1936. Alansplodge (talk) 18:42, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * To the OP: this will not directly answer your question but it may give you some idea as to how sport was organized in the SU from about 1935: Voluntary Sports Societies of the Soviet Union. WP does not have a general article on "Sport in the Soviet Union". Some, er, "contributor" made it a redirect to the article "Sport in Russia" which has absolutely nothing on the Soviet Union. Contact Basemetal   here  15:54, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Sport in the USSR: Physical Culture--Visual Culture by Mike O'Mahony (pp. 18-20) gives an overview of the ideological concept of fizkultura, the idealised portrayal of physical fitness in manual labour, sport and military service which developed during the 1920s and 1930s but only looked beyond its borders to other revolutionary regimes. Victory in the Second World War, the author contends, gave the USSR a new sense of its position in the world, and entry into the Olympics was seen as a non-military way of promoting Communist ideology.
 * Globalizing Sport: National Rivalry and International Community in the 1930s by Barbara J. Keys says (p. 159): "In the 1920s, the Soviet Union opted out of the Western system of international sport, condemning it as inherently capitalist and exploitative. Instead. the Soviet Union attempted to build an alternative system of international sport based on a distinctly 'proletarian' brand of sport and physical culture which eschewed individualism and record-seeking". It goes on to say that the USSR began to come round to the idea of international integration in the 1930s, starting with football (soccer), despite having banned schools from organising football competitions in 1926. Alansplodge (talk) 18:35, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Hey, Rome wasn't built in a day. It takes time to make doping practically undetectable, so cut 'em some slack. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:54, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I have added a brief note to the "Soviet Union at the Olympics" article, using the refs quoted above. Alansplodge (talk) 17:44, 19 August 2016 (UTC)