Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2017 September 23

= September 23 =

Alternatives to the "noninterference directive" ("Prime Directive" in Star Trek)
In Star Trek, the Prime Directive seemed rather flawed, in that it allowed any pre-warp civilization to develop, on it's own, no matter what path they were headed down. Is there any other sci-fi treatment of this issue, where instead they feel free to guide civilizations to develop if they are doing poorly on their own, but leave those alone which are doing well ? StuRat (talk) 00:16, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The Space Odyssey series by Arthur C. Clarke features unseen alien intelligence (the Monolith builders) which is seen to deliberately guide humanity to reach major evolutionary milestones (a theme based on the biological concept of Punctuated equilibrium). Clarke also explores this theme more directly in Childhood's End where we actually see the alien overlords and where we see them more directly manipulating humanity.  -- Jayron 32 00:47, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * That was a strange one, where the monoliths seemed to inspire one group of monkeys to beat another group to death, using bones as clubs. That seems like rather negative "guidance". StuRat (talk) 20:24, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * What do you expect from a director who's greatest hits are sympathetic to someone who clubs the elderly to death for fun and has sex with 12 year old girls? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:53, 24 September 2017 (UTC)


 * And who also deliberately tortured his actors to get the performance he wanted out of them. He made great movies, but he was an asshole.  -- Jayron 32 02:22, 25 September 2017 (UTC)


 * See Uplift (science fiction). David Brin's Uplift Universe envisions a systemic manipulation of more primitive species, rarely for the good of the latter. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:15, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * In Marvel comics (and to a limited extent, the cinematic equivalent), there are The Celestials who help or leave alone races which are doing well, but wipe out or hamper those that do not pass their tests. This is in contrast to The Watchers, who (mostly) follow a policy of non-interference. Matt Deres (talk) 13:32, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The State of the Art by Ian M Banks deals with this - the primitive planet in question being Earth. The story is about the difficulty of deciding whether to contact us, leave us alone, or wipe us out. Many of his SF novels about the culture also deal with similar themes. Wymspen (talk) 15:39, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * An interesting variation could be possible if the aliens were capable of time travel: "Oh crap, we went back in time and killed Hitler during WW1, but then the NAZIs had a more competent leader and won WW2. Shall we kill this guy, too, or put things back the way they were ?". StuRat (talk) 20:29, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * On the Day the Earth Stood Still, Klaatu offered some "guidance": behave, or else. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:29, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

The Star Trek idea has a literary ancestor in the novel Star Maker (1937) by Olaf Stapledon. Civilizations across the universe are allowed to gain awareness, creativity, and to further develop along the Darwinian and Marxist laws of development. One of them, a symbiotic species, is depicted as older and far more advanced than the others. But they choose to not interfere with the development of the fledglings, fearing that they may cost other civilizations their "independence of mind". When one of the civilizations turns out to be an expansionist force, dedicated to forcing its mentality over all others, the symbiotic species violates its own non-interference principles by stepping in to prevent the conquest.

The novel is famous for introducing various new concepts in science fiction. One of them was the so-called Dyson sphere. Basically a fan of the novel, called Freeman Dyson, liked Stapledon's concept and based a real-life scientific theory on it.

As for Star Trek, one of the most controversial depictions of how they interprete non-interference is the episode "Dear Doctor" (2002) of Star Trek: Enterprise.
 * The protagonists make contact with the Valakians, a sentient, humanoid race which still has pre-warp technology, though they already have diplomatic contacts with more advanced civilizations. The Valakians are in deep trouble, as a mysterious "plague" is killing them and at least 12 million deaths per year are caused by the plague. They ask for help and a doctor from the Enterprise starts studying the disease. He discovers that the "plague" is actually a hereditary, genetic disease that is slowly, but surely wiping out the species.
 * The protagonists discover that a second sentient species, the Menk, share their planet with the Valakians. They are supposedly less intelligent and less technologically advanced than the Valakians, but are depicted as having the advantage to evolve into a "dominant species", healthier and more advanced than the Valalians ever where.
 * The Enterprise crew figures out that the evolutionary process in the planet is killing out the Valakians (who are described as an "evolutionary dead end"), and positioning the Menk as replacements. "The Enterprise crew, believing survival of the genetically fittest was the noblest of ideals, refused to save any lives." They deny all real help, both medical and technological, and abandon the Valakians to their fate. Dimadick (talk) 13:16, 25 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Leaving aside that genetic flaws are self-correcting (because those with the flaws die out and don't pass on as many of those genes), that would pose an interesting problem, if saving the one species will wipe out the other. Relocation of one to another comparable planet might help, but that would involve moving thousands or perhaps millions, to avoid a population bottleneck and inbreeding.  If they have continents, that could work, too, provided you commit to keeping them apart thereafter.


 * I would apply a "Noninterference Golden Rule". That is, whatever rule you apply to lesser species should be something you would be happy with a more advanced species applying to yours.  Perhaps right now a more advanced species is waiting and watching, to see how we treat lesser species, so they can do the same to us.  StuRat (talk) 16:29, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Thomas & Friends
In Thomas & Friends, was Hank the Pennsylvania K4 engine able to squeeze through the Ballyhoo Tunnel? And did he have any problems with weak bridges and the like? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:EDA1:6DA2:2F4C:8E0A (talk) 07:49, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The show is fictional. It's not supposed to be an accurate representation of how trains work.-- Jayron 32 12:11, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Fictional or not; that's not what they asked. This is the Entertainment Desk, not Trains 101. There very well could be an answer to this question within the stories. Just the same as if I had asked: did The Little Engine That Could make it over the mountain under the same strenuous conditions other larger trains could not pull the load? Each character in Thomas & Friends has their own particular problem they face. Not knowing the series as well as the OP, the above problems could very well be those for Hank. Is there a better forum for them to ask this question? Maineartists (talk) 12:36, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The original stories as written by the Reverend W. Awdry were fairly realistic with regard to engineering details (aside from the sentient rolling stock element, obviously). Almost all the locos were based on real classes (one was a hypothetical Gresley-Stanier hybrid, if I recall correctly), many of the stories were based on actual events (see the External Link in List of Railway Series books), and Awdry took pains to make the terrain of his fictional Island of Sodor as plausible as possible. I'm not familiar with the media versions, and doubt if their producers and writers were so meticulous as Awdry himself. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.115.180 (talk) 15:21, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Isn't Sodor is inspired by the Isle of Wight? (the one south of Britain the Titanic had to go around to leave port (which in turn was probably there because trains are faster than ships but boarding even closer to America is maybe too long in a less luxurious train cabin to be worth it)) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:37, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I know where the Isle of Wight is, thanks: I live approximately 14 miles from it :-). As far as I'm aware it didn't inspire Sodor, which doesn't much resemble it. Awdry took the name from the title of The Bishop of Sodor and Man: Man is of course the Isle of Man which likely was an inspiration, while Sodor was an old Norse name for some of the Scottish Hebridean Islands which once came under the same ecclesiastical jurisdiction. By the 20th century Sodor was no longer an extant concept, so Awdry imagined a rather large English island occupying much of the sea between the IoM and modern Cumbria. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.115.180 (talk) 08:46, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, see Henry's Forest Controversy for example. Alansplodge (talk) 00:36, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Or the story of Henry and the tunnel (I don't know why no one, I mean NO ONE, apart from me has ever picked up on it until now) -- if this happened in real life, he would likely have choked himself, his crew and all his passengers with his own smoke. But basically, I was asking this because after seeing footage of the only preserved EMD E5 in action (I wanted it for a music video), I decided (as a character development exercise) to brainstorm what an E5 would be like as a character, and ended up creating a whole new character for Thomas & Friends -- but with her loading gauge and axle load, I started having some doubts about her ability to actually travel over most of the line (basically, the Ballyhoo tunnel and everything in the "down" direction from there).  And that's why I asked about Hank, because anywhere a K4 can go, an E-unit can go as well.  (And no, I do not actually know the show that well -- I only watched parts of the first 3 seasons (the last character I actually saw introduced was Mavis (who I once thought was an EMD SW switcher)) before growing out of it and switching my viewing habits to the Discovery Channel, which back then was still educational (as opposed to now) -- so I haven't seen the episode with Hank.) 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:EDA1:6DA2:2F4C:8E0A (talk) 02:38, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * We have an article defining where Sodor is.
 * Who are you, and who are you replying to? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:EDA1:6DA2:2F4C:8E0A (talk) 03:02, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
 * [un-indent] Update: I've been able to find and watch the relevant episode myself, and to reconstruct the approximate route based on it -- and guess what, the trains would have passed through at least 3 tunnels and over at least 3 bridges and viaducts (including one notoriously weak bridge on the Ffarquhar branch where Mavis earlier saved Toby's life), so I guess Hank really has no problem with either the loading gauge or the axle load, despite the former being to the generous American standards rather than the restrictive British ones, and the latter putting him firmly into Route availability 10. (I don't know how this is possible on a British railroad, but I suspect that the North Western was originally built on Brunel's 7-foot gauge, either as part of the Great Western Railroad or as a separate project.) 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:EDA1:6DA2:2F4C:8E0A (talk) 03:02, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
 * 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:EDA1:6DA2:2F4C:8E0A (talk) 03:02, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Scene names in Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Where did we get the names of the scenes? Did the original production mention the names of the scenes, or did they originate somewhere else? With some, there's plenty of room for choosing (why do we always use some form of "Constitutional Peasants" to refer to the scene with Dennis, for example), and while others have rather obvious names due to the dominant character (e.g. "Knights of Ni"), yet others have a dominant character but might not be named thus (is it "Cave of Caerbannog" or "Rabbit of Caerbannog"? I don't know without looking it up). So again I assume we're all getting the scene names from somewhere, and unless there are title cards in the movie showing scene names (it's been a long time since I watched it), I doubt these are the Pythons' original names for the scenes, since we wouldn't have a way to know about them. Nyttend (talk) 11:41, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * There are some title cards in the movie, introducing the various scenes...although I can't remember what they are at the moment. Why wouldn't we have any way of knowing what their names for the scenes were? They're mostly still alive and there is plenty of information about the production of the movie. There is Monty Python and the Holy Grail (Book), with the first and final drafts of the script, and lots of noted. I have it here...somewhere. So! This is not very useful, but if I can find the book and watch the movie again, that would help... Adam Bishop (talk) 12:04, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "we"? I don't see any listed in our article. As Adam says, a few scenes are named directly in the film. The book lists every scene through various drafts, but most do not really have names as such, just descriptions of whether it's live or animated, but it's hard to tell if that's what you're talking about because I'm not sure what you're seeing. The Pythons were often deeply involved in subsidiary works, so it would not surprise me at all if they subsequently added names to some scenes for, say, the game. Matt Deres (talk) 13:41, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Note that Monty Python was rather absurdist, so it wouldn't surprise me a bit if a scene had a name that had nothing whatsoever to do with the scene. Perhaps jousting knights could be named "The Larch", for example. StuRat (talk) 20:35, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * "We" as in the general audience, not "we" as Wikipedians. The constitutional peasants was what brought this to mind; a Google search for "constitutional peasants" returns allegedly 48,800 results, and the results that are visible come from all over the Internet.  Clearly "we" are all getting the name constitutional peasants from somewhere, since it's a generic description, not something derived from a phrase in the text (if you were going by the text, you might use "anarcho-syndicalist peasants" or something similar) that one would expect to be understood independently by the large majority of people watching the film.  Nyttend (talk) 01:47, 24 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Still can't find my Holy Grail book, but Michael Palin's diary suggests it was already called the "Constitutional Peasants" scene during filming, assuming this is his real diary, which it seems to be. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:58, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Found the book with the various stages of the script - they are not called anything in the scripts, just "peasant". Adam Bishop (talk) 19:46, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

"Why wouldn't we have any way of knowing what their names for the scenes were? They're mostly still alive"

Not all of them. Graham Chapman died in 1989. Dimadick (talk) 13:36, 25 September 2017 (UTC)


 * That's why I said mostly :) Adam Bishop (talk) 13:48, 25 September 2017 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, there's an audio CD set called "The Final Ripoff", that has audio versions of selected sketches. It lists that scene as "Constitutional Peasant". So clearly, this name is now used officially. But I couldn't say if that is its origin.
 * It wouldn't surprise me if some of these well-known names are lore that is handed down from early fan sites on the Internet. Python was very popular among people who had a disproportionate influence on the Internet's early culture. In the early days of the web, websites that were script archives of Python sketches were very popular. It would not surprise me if names chosen by those early websites survived to this day, without anyone really thinking about where they come from. ApLundell (talk) 20:02, 25 September 2017 (UTC)


 * A problem with using a script for the movie as a source here is that there are multiple scripts. In a documentary about castles, featuring Terry Jones (I have no memory for the title as I only remember the scene I describe here), Terry Jones and Terry Gilliam visit Duone Castle. In the gift shop, they find, as expected, coconut shells and similar memorabilia for sale. They also find bound copies of the "official" script for the Holy Grail. They flip through it and comment that while it is obviously faithful to the movie, it isn't the actual script they used. Then, they wonder out loud if they are getting proper royalties for sales of the script. The scene abruptly ends as Terry moves on to another castle. If you were to use that "official" script, you would likely find scene names that were not in the original script. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 17:19, 26 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The African scene names or the European ones? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:36, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Imitation drum
Once upon a time I stumbled at amazon.com on an electronic device which imitated various drum beats. The player, usually with a guitar in hands did not need to use drum sticks. He could regulate the tempo by pressing a couple of pedals. The drum beats were electronically generated. The thing had a variety of programs. I wish I saved the link but I did not. All my attempts to find it again have failed. The thing I am looking for is NOT similar to this. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks, - --AboutFace 22 (talk) 23:46, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Is it any of the things that show up when you put drum machine pedal into Google? Like this? Matt Deres (talk) 00:18, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

@Matt Deres, thank you. It certainly is one of them, perhaps even the one I saw a couple of years ago. --AboutFace 22 (talk) 14:21, 24 September 2017 (UTC)