Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2020 February 17

= February 17 =

Can the Elder Scrolls game can be consider or added to the Dark Fantasy genre ?
Hi ,

Can the elder scroll franchise be listed or added in the Dark Fantasy section? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_fantasy) like the original games series such as Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim has dark mature themes and aswell horror elements,  overall the tone of the series has a dark fantasy atmosphere

thank you for your consideration and time — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oneuser12 (talk • contribs) 01:20, 17 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Hello, . Currently, the lede of Dark Fantasy specifies it as pertaining to "literary, artistic, and cinematic works", and discusses various novel, story and comics œvres and works (some of which have been filmed), but no games. However, the 'See also' section has a link to Category:Dark fantasy role-playing games and I'm aware that a number of games are based to varying extents on literary works specifically mentioned in the article.
 * I see no reason why you should not Be bold and try adding some text to the article concerning relevant games, but this should probably cover at least a range of those already listed in the Category linked above: mentioning just the Elder Scrolls games (which certainly could also be added to the Category) might be seen as partial and promotional. The worst that can happen is that someone else disagrees and Reverts your edits, in which case you can Discuss the matter with them on the article's Talk page – this BRD cycle is the usual way in which a consensus on content is reached.
 * One possible objection that occurs to me is that the character of a game when played may well be determined in part by the players themselves, so might not be dependably "dark" – I can well imagine playing a game involving Elric of Melnibone, say, deliberately for laughs. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.58.107 (talk) 20:24, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
 * (personal opinion) I don't think Elder Scrolls qualifies as dark fantasy. Yeah, there are grim portions of those games, but only portions, much of which is optional. IMO, they're clearly part of epic high fantasy; they may in fact be the purest form among popular video game franchises. I think in order to qualify as dark fantasy, there needs to be a much more overall feeling of supernatural horror. American McGee's Alice is probably the poster child for dark fantasy video games and, not coincidentally, has an entirely different feel from Elder Scrolls. Matt Deres (talk) 19:25, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Using the soprano clef
Was the soprano clef (with Middle C on the first line) the most common clef for high notes back in the 17th and 18th centuries?? When and why did it switch to the treble clef?? You must note that the soprano clef is confusing to everyone today; everybody today is familiar with the treble and bass clefs. (This was brought to my attention with some images at Minuets in G major and G minor (Petzold).) Georgia guy (talk) 12:24, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that different clefs (than the standard Treble and Bass) were in use in earlier eras, and that the standardization into the two clefs is a more recent development. The article clef is sadly uncited, but does state uses of the soprano clef and also noting that it is no longer used.  -- Jayron 32 19:06, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I have the impression that the other clefs are still used in orchestral conductors' scores, the ones that show what all the instruments are doing at the same time, on 6 or so staves. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:7AC0 (talk) 19:42, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
 * No, while there are a slew of staves, they are all either treble clef or bass clef, or OCCASIONALLY alto clef (usually ONLY for viola, IIRC). See  or  for examples.  Other than treble, bass, and alto the other clefs are just not used.  Even in SATB vocal parts, for which some of the other weird clefs were created, are now all written in treble and bass clef.  See .  -- Jayron 32 12:57, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Such clefs will not appear on the page anymore (unless you are reading from old scores; the Alte Mozart-Ausgabe from the late 19th century uses soprano clefs consistently for soprano parts), but they are still used for clef transposition.
 * P.S. Tenor clef is more common than alto clef. Double sharp (talk) 13:02, 20 February 2020 (UTC)