Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2020 February 22

= February 22 =

Mozart's 2 most famous Minuets
Does Wikipedia have an article for either of the following Mozart minuets:


 * 1) The Minuet in C has a C half note followed by eighth notes of E-C in the first measure.
 * 2) The Minuet in F has F-A eighth notes followed by 2 C quarter notes in the first measure.

Georgia guy (talk) 02:06, 22 February 2020 (UTC)


 * It doesn't look like it according to this List of compositions by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. They might be tucked into some other article though. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 02:24, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you know the Köchel number of either one? 2601:648:8202:96B0:C8B1:B369:A439:9657 (talk) 08:02, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that link IP. There are several minuets with links to some info about them listed in the table in the Köchel catalogue. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 08:07, 22 February 2020 (UTC)


 * They're both originally from the Nannerl Notenbuch. The first one is an earlier piano version of what later became Menuet I from the third movement of Mozart's Violin Sonata No. 1 in C (K. 6). The second one is Minuet in F, K. 2. There are articles on that second minuet on a few other Wikipedias: Minuetto K 2 / Menuet en fa majeur, KV 2 (Mozart) / Minueto en fa mayor, KV 2 (Mozart). ---Sluzzelin talk  09:55, 22 February 2020 (UTC)


 * "Mozart's 2 most famous minuets"? What led you to that conclusion? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:14, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Sluzzelin, a good thing given your links is that I can click on Translate to reveal English versions of them. JackofOz, these are the Mozart minuets that occur most frequently in piano books these days. Do you know of a third Mozart minuet that is also very famous?? What is its first measure?? Georgia guy (talk) 12:42, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I think JackOfOz is saying "citation needed" on these two being the most famous. Seems like an unverifiable opinion. Now, it could be verified that they are the most published, but we would need a source for that statement, not just your assertion (or even your original research by counting). --Khajidha (talk) 16:58, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * What other Mozart Minuet do you think is famous to pianists these days?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:00, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the first thing I thought of was Piano Sonata No. 16 (Mozart), which however is not a minuet. Added: also, the ubiquitous Bach Minuet in G major, which is not only not by Mozart, but also not by Bach. 2601:648:8202:96B0:C8B1:B369:A439:9657 (talk) 19:46, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't know what other Mozart minuets might be known to pianists or anyone else and it doesn't matter. "Most famous" would require a lot more than your assertion. --Khajidha (talk) 19:59, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * We don't have to be quite so finicky about sourcing, outside of article space. I'm satisfied with saying to myself "ok, maybe" and leaving it at that. 2601:648:8202:96B0:C8B1:B369:A439:9657 (talk) 22:15, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Georgia guy, you've now qualified your claim by reducing it to minuets famous to pianists. He wrote a heck of a lot more minuets than that. All I know is I've been playing classical piano for close to 60 years and I've never come across these two of which you speak. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:50, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * That's nothing. Andy Warhol said everyone will be famous for 15 minuets. Elizium23 (talk) 00:01, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Go figuroe ... ---Sluzzelin talk  03:09, 23 February 2020 (UTC)


 * JackofOz I know you think by saying such as thing: "I've been playing classical piano for close to 60 years and I've never come across these two of which you speak" makes you seem impressive to the rest of us; and attempts to put Georgia guy in his place - but in reality, it makes you sound pompous and ignorant. You claim to know that Mozart "wrote a heck of a lot more minuets than that" yet only these two escaped your 60 year Classical grasp? Really? Hm. Quite the coincidence. I've been playing classical piano for 35 years, and I knew of these minuets in the first 2 years of my studies. In fact, I found them in 5 separate collections of Mozart anthologies in my library upon reading this thread. O.R.  The OP stated 2 piano minuets and you took issue with his qualification of reduction famous only to pianists ... do you know any piano minuets by Mozart that are famous to oboists? it seems as though you came into this rather innocent discussion with an agenda. When in reality, you should be thankful: you now know 2 more minuets after 60 years of not ... Maineartists (talk) 04:05, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
 * For which I will be eternally grateful, I'm sure. But let us stick to the facts: The first time Georgia guy mentioned the word "piano" was after - not before - I queried his assertion. Until then, he appeared to be talking about ALL of the minuets Mozart wrote. Which is a lot. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  04:21, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I wonder if one area of confusion in this discussion is what the restriction to piano meant. Maineartists mentioned "that are famous to oboists". Yet it seem to be maybe the key counter part is not some other musician, but people in general. It could easily be the case that certain minuets are famous to pianists because they're consider a good teaching and learning tool. But the minuets the general public are most likely to have heard and recognise may be different. And yes, whether they've heard these minuets played via a piano, violin, oboe, didgeridoo, theremin, this would apply since the original question did not say anything about piano minuets. I have no idea if this is the case, I don't even know what a minuet is. And yes, challenging uncited claims is a normal part of the RD. Editors who don't want such challenges should either not make uncited, potentially poorly worded, claims, or find somewhere else where such challenges are not routine. Nil Einne (talk) 13:33, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Nil Einne "Editors who don't want such challenges should either not make uncited, potentially poorly worded, claims, or find somewhere else where such challenges are not routine." The OP did not place uncited content within an article. This is the Reference Desk/Entertainment. Perhaps the most forum-style, opinionated, free-form, call-in for an answer, and (might I say), least respected part of WP. Where did the editor ever say he "didn't want such challenges"? Your assumption seems harsh. The original question was directed toward a very specific answer; and the vulture type editors that pounced due to a common need for WP policy found within proper article writing, went nuts. The conversation sidelined into something else; when really: Sluzzelin answered the question without incident. The rest is just arguing for the sake of argument. Someone please just close this and move on, Betty. To say I actually I mentioned minuets "famous to oboists" is like questioning the punchline: "What do you mean that wasn't the guy's parrot? Whose parrot was it?" Maineartists (talk) 14:12, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Read carefully. I never said or implied the OP didn't want such challenges. I simply pointed out that if editors did not want such challenges, the RD was not the place for them. This was in response to your suggestion that there was something wrong with such challenges or it was unfair to the OP. It was not unfair, because people who make questionable uncited claims should expect such challenges as it is the norm of the RD. Any editor who does not welcome such challenges is welcome to find a community where that is the norm which is not the RD, or simply avoid offering uncited claims so the situation does not arise. I do not see any evidence that Georgia Guy holds such a view but it does seem like you do, and my point stands there are 2 solutions open to you. And while there is greater tolerance of uncited claims here than elsewhere, you're mistaken if you think that mean's challenges aren't routine, or that editors aren't expected to provide sources for their claims when necessary. This happens especially with responses, but it also happens with claims made in questions. Especially when those claims are a key part of the question (i.e. if the claim is untrue, the question may not make sense) which admittedly didn't apply here. In fact, an editor was topic-banned and then got themselves indef blocked for socking in part due to their tendency to keep offering unsupported answers in response to questions.  Actually there are so many arguments over whether someone is being excessively nit-picky that I don't understand how someone can think it's not the norm here. Dare I say it, while lack of sources and tendency of editors, yes including me, to offer opinions on the RD is on aspect which has been controversial among non regulars when people complaints about the RD, the tendency of RDers to challenge and nitpick everything is another thing which also tends to get a lot of attention in complaints about the RD.  And while I can't speak for others, when I challenge a claim it is nearly always because I find a claim questionable, and want to see some evidence it is true. Nothing to do with arguing for the sake of arguing. If someone provides a cite, I'm happy since it means I learn something. (This is probably not so common, since a lot of the time I do a cursory search before challenging and don't challenge if it looks like the claim is true or may be true; but it depends on the situation and I still learnt something even if it was from searching myself so am happy even if I would have preferred not to have to search.)  BTW, I stand by my point. What I would assume when someone says "2 most famous minuets" speaking as someone who once learned guitar for a few months when fairly young, and did take compulsory music lessons in primary school, but who's understanding of music theory is extremely limited; is not minuets most famous among piano players. Nor minuets most famous among oboeists. It is minuets most famous among the general public, who don't know how to play the minuet or any musical instrument, and probably like me have no idea what a minuet even is, but have heard them and would recognise them even if they have no idea what they are and probably don't know who composed them or where they originated from.  Nil Einne (talk) 19:36, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I'd guess the most often played standalone Mozart minuet for piano to be KV 355/576b, honestly. The early pieces from the Nannerl Notenbuch are not really played much. If we are talking about any instrument(s), then it's probably the one from KV 525. Double sharp (talk) 15:03, 24 February 2020 (UTC)