Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2020 October 29

= October 29 =

Tolkien in Earthsea's True Speech
When I read Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea series, I was immediately amazed with the idea of the "True Speech". One of the first words of the True Speech mentioned in the books is tolk, meaning "rock". Later, there is a description of a lecture in magic at Roke island, where the speaker is saying (I can't remember the exact quote but I'll paraphrase): "In the True Speech, the word for 'foam' is sukien, which comes from suk, meaning 'feather', and Inien, meaning 'the sea'. Feather of the sea, is foam. But no one could ever command foam by calling it sukien, one must use its own true name, which is essa."

It became immediately apparent for me that by this formation, tolkien means "rock of the sea" in the True Speech. Now was it Le Guin's intention to honour J.R.R. Tolkien this way, or was it just a coincidence, or something I have just thought up on my own? J I P &#124; Talk 00:09, 29 October 2020 (UTC)


 * That's interesting. She certainly considered Tolkien one of her main influences. If you can't find references to this online you might do better to ask at one of the many Tolkien fandom websites.--Shantavira|feed me 10:42, 29 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Le Guin was quite capable of such word-play, as with the name Orsinia, conceived of as being derived from ursinus, Latin for "bear-like", just as her own forename is Latin for "little she-bear". There's perhaps another Tolkien tribute in the Earthsea story "The Rule of Names", in which a dragon disguised as a man lives under the name "Mr. Underhill", the same false name that Frodo took when setting out from the Shire.  Sadly it's too late to ask Ursula Le Guin herself, and no-one else could ever have answered your question for sure. --Antiquary (talk) 12:05, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * There is a very considerable body of critical literature about Le Guin's ouvre, as can be gathered from the variety cited in the article about her. Many of the critics were able to consult her directly, so it wouldn't be surprising if these references have been confirmed and written about by at least one of them.
 * I can only go so far as stating that they don't appear to be mentioned in Ursula K. Le Guin Ed. Joseph D. Olander & Martin Harry Greenberg (1979; New York, Taplinger Publishing Co., Inc. / Edinburgh, Paul Harris Publishing; 'Writers of the 21st Century Series') (which might perhaps be added to the article's 'Further reading' section).
 * It might be worth making an enquiry at the official website listed under the article's 'External links'. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.129.143 (talk) 14:39, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This seems to be a good idea, but I don't know how to do it. The "getting in touch" page lists the following:

Rights and permissions

Permission to quote, copy, reprint, or use published passages, works or images

Literary and publishing rights

Theatrical, film and television rights

Archives online finding aid and access requests

Media inquiries Agency

Curtis Brown, Ltd. represents the Ursula K. Le Guin Literary Trust. Estate

The Ursula K. Le Guin Literary Trust is managed by her family. Archive

Ursula’s archives were gifted to the Special Collections of Knight Library at the University of Oregon. Donations may be made in Ursula’s name to:

Audubon Society of Portland Friends of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge (for Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Harney County) Malheur Field Station Social Media

Instagram Twitter


 * I do not represent the media nor wish to reproduce Le Guin's works or to pay donations in her name. I just want to ask a question about her works. I would prefer to e-mail someone at the official site directly instead of using social media. Does anyone have any idea how I could post a general enquiry? J I P  &#124; Talk 21:41, 29 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying any of these count as reliable sources (I only checked a few), but googling "ursula" "le guin" "tolkien" "tolk" "inien" yielded a few blogs etc. where others have made the same observation. ---Sluzzelin talk  23:21, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This one for example. Alansplodge (talk) 14:54, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * If this counts as a reliable source, could it be mentioned in the Earthsea article? I think it's specific to Earthsea, not about Le Guin's works in general. J I P  &#124; Talk 15:44, 31 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Le Guin herself implicitly compared her Earthsea cycle to Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings when she complained about the Legend of Earthsea adaptation, wondering what would have happened "if the people who made the film of The Lord of the Rings had ended it with Frodo putting on the Ring and ruling happily ever after". In his 2013 book The Riddles of The Hobbit, author Adam Roberts appears to assume the word play was intentional: "So the answer to the riddle can be found, neatly enough, by translating it into Le Guin's true-tongue. What is Earth-sea? It is tolk-inien. The riddle is: what is Earthsea? Le Guin is far from the only writer of Fantasy who acknowledges that her creations are Tolkinien, of course." (It seems to have escaped him that inien as the head of a compound term becomes ien.) --Lambiam 16:05, 31 October 2020 (UTC)