Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2021 July 7

= July 7 =

Rock music
Why is it the great musicians such as Belafonte, McCartney, Jagger, Neil Young and Gordon Lightfoot as well as less musicians continue to entertain but no longer produce memorable songs? TFD (talk) 06:01, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This is an invitation to debate and we don't do that here, sorry. There are plenty of other places on the internet where you can discuss this kind of thing if you wish. --Viennese Waltz 07:25, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Klingons
In the original Star Trek, Klingons were portrayed as basically thugs, but in the later series they became more like Samurai with elaborate honor codes etc. Of course ST itself didn't give up on stereotypes (viz. the Ferengi) after rehabilitating the Klingons. Question: did anyone take the Klingon's place as thugs? I.e. power hungry but unprincipled, out to conquer whatever they could find using whatever methods worked in the moment. I'm not sure that describes the original Klingons exactly either, but I'm trying to put a label on an archetype. I guess the The Augments sort of fit, but they had superhuman abilities rather than just being forceful. The characteristic I'm looking for isn't particularly thuggery, but rather, the pursuit of conquest in its own right, and acceptance of thuggery as part of that. The mirror universe was sort of like that, I guess, but was treated as somewhat of a joke. Added: not the Romulans as they were too subtle. I'm looking something a little more barbarian, if you know what I mean. Thanks. 2602:24A:DE47:BA60:8FCB:EA4E:7FBD:4814 (talk) 20:22, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I think the Kazon are probably the best fit for that. --174.94.31.124 (talk) 20:57, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

In the original series of the 1960s, the space enemies were a clear analogy to the Cold War. The Klingons were viewed almost like the Communist Chinese, and even looked mongol in their appearances. The Romulans on the other hand were intended to represent the Soviet Union, equal in technology to the Federation, and very stealthy and cunning. Interesting, by the 90s, the Romulans were hardly ever mentioned and the Klingons were clearly now like the Soviet Union. When the Next Generation started up in the 1980s it was the Ferengi who took thr place as the bad guys, but this proved to not worked well. The Borg was the answer to everything as the ultimate villain. -KTcup82 (talk) 21:13, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Let's not forget the Cardassians. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:52, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * They were schemers, not thugs. (And therefore the most interesting villains in all of Star Trek, I thought.)  --174.94.31.124 (talk) 01:21, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The Bajorans would disagree. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:47, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! The Kazon maybe sound like a good match, though oddly, I don't remember them at all despite having seen a fair amount of Voyager. Cardassians, hmm, maybe I don't really understand what they were about. Borg were more like Saberhagen's Berserkers. Hmm ok, rather than species, does anyone remember if ST had any good ruthless madmen who were out to conquer the galaxy outright and got anywhere doing so? Sort of space conquistador types. Come to think of it, departing from Star Trek, Jabba the Hutt may be sort of what I want (Darth Vader was "lawful evil" and I'm looking for chaotic evil). Any other ideas? 2602:24A:DE47:BA60:8FCB:EA4E:7FBD:4814 (talk) 22:38, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * In the first episode of Voyager, "Caretaker"? The Voyager was brought to the Delta quadrant by a device known as the Caretaker's "array".  After the Caretaker died, Janeway planned to use the array for a return trip, but when it became clear that this would increase the Kazon's power over other species by leaving the array in Kazon control, she ordered it destroyed instead, thus setting up the premise of the whole series.  Hmmm... perhaps the "fair amount of Voyager" that you saw was only from later seasons, by which time the ship was beyond the range of Kazon space? --174.94.31.124 (talk)
 * I may have seen the episode you mention, without finding it memorable. I liked the original ST and I got into ST Enterprise after a while, and TNG had its moments, but I was never that crazy about Voyager or DS9.  2602:24A:DE47:BA60:8FCB:EA4E:7FBD:4814 (talk) 04:23, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The humans inhabiting the Mirror Universe are ruthless thugs. --Lambiam 09:37, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, i mentioned them, though I don't know if they got anywhere in terms of galactic conquest. Khan Noonien Singh might be a candidate?  I don't remember his story though, or if he was connected with the Augments.  The bad guy Whatsisname (ah right, William of Ceta) in the Dorsai novels is also pretty close to what I want.  Hmm.  I never read the Lensman series but maybe it is time that I did. 2602:24A:DE47:BA60:8FCB:EA4E:7FBD:4814 (talk) 23:46, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Khan was an earthling, a result of eugenics. As a side note, I recall someone once saying that the Federation is who we like to think we are, while the Klingons are who we really are. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:50, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Bugs, yeah, earthling is ok for this, I realize I'm looking for a character type (hmm, maybe Doctor Doom) rather than a species. And re Klingons: I remember the saying "you're looking for a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem".  Heh.  2602:24A:DE47:BA60:8FCB:EA4E:7FBD:4814 (talk) 21:45, 12 July 2021 (UTC)