Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2021 November 24

= November 24 =

Star Wars
In the Harry Potter series, there were the Death Eaters, who sere straightforwardly and openly the bad guys; there was the Ministry of Magic that was nominally good and supposedly trying to fight the Death Eaters, but which was in reality corrupt and incompetent and ineffectual (besides being infiltrated by DE's); and there was the Order of the Phoenix which was the actual competent good guys.

In Star Wars there was the Empire (with Darth Vader and friends) who were like the Death Eaters, and the Rebels who were like the Order of the Phoenix. Was there also an analog to the Ministry of Magic? I.e. some initially ok but later corrupt governing body that the Empire eventually crushed? And is that basically a trope? I think something like it happened in Asimov's Foundation series as well. (Edit: hmm, I'm remembering a little more now, i.e. maybe the original Republic morphed itself into the Empire after Palpatine gained enough influence).

Disclaimer: I've not that familiar with either Star Wars or Potter. I read the first few Potter books and the original few Star Wars movies, but neither did all that much for me. I did enjoy the Foundation novels but don't remember enough about them.

Thanks. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:69F6 (talk) 19:50, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The Galactic Senate seems to fill that role. They are only mentioned a bit in the original trilogy, but they play a more prominent role in the prequels.-- Jayron 32 19:55, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * As Jayron said, the Galactic Republic, as seen in the prequel trilogy, seems like it might fill that role. By the time of the events in those movies, the Republic was considered bloated and corrupt, unable to prevent its member planets from splitting off and warring with each other (the Separatists, though that conflict was revealed to have been engineered by the Sith before they revealed themselves). It wasn't so much overthrown by the Empire as it was subverted by its leader, Palpatine, who declared himself emperor and diminished the Galactic Senate's power, installing his own cronies in positions of power. The Senate continued to exist at least in name until the events of the first movie in the original trilogy, when Palpatine dissolved it (Princess Leia mentions being a senator in the first movie). It's not really discussed much in the movies, from what I remember, but the Rebel Alliance was started by figures like Bail Organa (Leia's adoptive father) and Mon Mothma, who were prominent political leaders from the days of the Republic who wanted to restore democracy (the group's full title is the Alliance to Restore the Republic). They initially worked from within the Empire in secret before either being killed or fleeing into exile when the Emperor consolidated power. It does seem like a common trope (I can see some similarities in Foundation with that empire collapsing in on itself), but I don't know if there's a name for it. Wiki Tropes probably has a giant page on the subject. clpo13(talk) 20:13, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Asimov's Foundation series was (he has explicitly stated) inspired by The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. In Western culture this (either the event in general or particular details of it, not just Gibbon's book) is an obvious inspiration for other such works (for example, A. E. van Vogt's Empire of the Atom) because it looms so large in history as taught. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.225.31 (talk) 01:10, 25 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Depending on how broadly you want to define the MoM's role, other parallels crop up. If you just want the "nominally good, but secretly corrupt" position, you'll find scads of parallels, including Saruman in LOTR. If they also need to be bloated and corrupt, there's S.H.I.E.L.D, as depicted in Captain America: The Winter Soldier Matt Deres (talk) 19:42, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * S.H.I.E.L.D. was introduced in 1965, as a rather benevolent spy organization. In the Nick Fury vs. S.H.I.E.L.D. (1988) series, Life Model Decoys (sentient androids) have successfully infiltrated SHIELD, and most of the SHIELD personnel have been replaced by android imposters. For a summary of this storyline, see here. Stories where various SHIELD agents are revealed to secretly serve Hydra have since become commonplace. In the 1970s, there was also a storyline where SHIELD had successfully been infiltrated by The Corporation, a large criminal organization whose leader was a corrupt U.S. senator. Dimadick (talk) 13:15, 28 November 2021 (UTC)