Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2022 July 16

= July 16 =

Rippaverse
Hi! Should there be an article about the Rippaverse? It's all over the news. Ericdec85 (talk) 01:53, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure, we need more racist comic books. --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:56, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * We have articles on the plague, Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The criterion for inclusion of a topic is not whether we "need" it, but whether it is notable.  --Lambiam 09:26, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * How is it racist? And why would it even be a reason to ban it from Wikipedia? Ericdec85 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:9D80:270:E6A0:3106:DD02:370B:139B (talk) 11:24, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If it attacks "woke", then it's racist. Such an article would be yet another lightning rod for Wikipedia. Have at it! --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:12, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If it attacks "woke", then it's racist. I don't see the logic here. If it's racist, then it's racist. If it attacks anything else than people based on their race, it has absolutely nothing to do with racism. This is a new comic book made by a black writer with a black main character and as far as I know, it's not racist toward white or Asian people or anybody else. Ericdec85 (talk) 10:05, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Find us some links so we can learn about it. If it's "all over the news", you should have no trouble finding links. --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:46, 17 July 2022 (UTC)


 * If it's "all over the news", how about providing some links? --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:08, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTNEWS. --Lambiam 07:45, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Other term for "series"
In German there is a term "Serie" for series like The Simpsons and a term "Reihe" for rather loosely connected items like the James Bond movies. What would be a proper term for the latter in English to distinguish it from series like The Simpsons? I have seen "franchise" but this does not fit e.g. for movies of arthouse directors like the Three Colours trilogy. Could it be "set", or "group", or "collection"? How do you call a series of series, like "NCIS" with "NCIS", "NCIS L.A." and so on, if you don't call it "franchise"? --178.9.172.92 (talk) 09:01, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The most common term is series, also for the James Bond movies. The Star Wars franchise includes video games, comic books and action figures. --Lambiam 09:38, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I think there is the term film franchise for this type of series or meta-series, and then there is the term media franchise which includes the other media, but the distinction is rarely made. I suppose NCIS would be a "TV franchise", but the article NCIS: Los Angeles just says "the NCIS franchise". Franchise has old meanings of "freedom" and subsequently "noble generosity", but has come to mean "authorized business" (with regard to intellectual property), so yes, it's a poor fit for art films. I don't think it's common for art films to form a series, because artistically-minded directors don't have the urge to milk a concept for all it's worth, and I doubt there is any outer series of spin-off series of art films extant, so I don't know what would be the term for it. If it becomes necessary, you might resort to using the term fictional universe. Card Zero  (talk) 11:57, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * See Anthology series. Modocc (talk) 13:02, 16 July 2022 (UTC)


 * In genre literature criticism, the term "sequence" is sometimes applied to a series of books and/or stories by a single author where the plots have a discernable chronological order, but are not necessarily directly linked: their setting is sometimes described as "the —— Universe." The term "cycle " is also sometimes used, which ought to indicate that there is something cyclical about the overarching plot or background, though this is not always evident.
 * Another term, "saga", is used to suggest in addition some world-changing, heroic and/or mythical aspect to the plot or setting (ironic since the Icelandic sagas from which the term is taken were mostly accounts of historical events, often at a domestic level).
 * Where a number of books/stories are set in the same background or universe, but written by a range of authors, the term "shared-world series" is sometimes used: the stories may be aggregated into a series of "shared-world anthologies." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.169.177 (talk) 21:57, 16 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Another confusing use of "series" here on Wikipedia is in the Doctor Who articles. Doctor Who (series 1) is the 2005 season. Doctor Who (season 1) is the 1963 season. It uses "season" to indicate an old season and "series" to indicate a new season. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 12:19, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Venezia F.C.
Venezia F.C. have a new logo. How can I get the svg? 94.247.8.9 (talk) 09:03, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I see only png's on the Web, like this one, but there are many free online png to svg converters. --Lambiam 09:48, 16 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I found this on the French Wikipedia. --Lambiam 09:57, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

What is the music sub-genre of tokusatsu intro music?
What is the music sub-genre of tokusatsu intro music?

They usually have a very specific sound.

I am talking about songs like those ones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69LKsTflxEw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0oCN4WKwRI

177.206.34.42 (talk) 18:10, 16 July 2022 (UTC)


 * You probably want a more specific answer, but while you're waiting for that I'll say "disco". They utilize a lot of very enthusiastic synth tom fills (example is from a proponent of Italo disco but the sound is much the same, and the equipment probably), there's a string and horn section (as used by, for instance, The Trammps), sometimes electric guitar doing rock ornaments, nothing at all subtle about the harmonies, and a lot of synth sounds reminiscent of Giorgio Moroder. Disco. What it's called specifically when it's a theme tune for over-the-top Japanese sci-fi adventure shows, I don't know. Card Zero  (talk) 20:40, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Durin's Bane (LOTR)
If I understand it right, the basic sequence of events was: 1) Khazad-dûm is a huge city of dwarves, happily singing and mining away. 2) They eventually dig deep enough to awaken the Balrog. The Balrog kills a heck of a lot of them, and the rest escape/flee to other regions. Khazad-dûm is left deserted. 3) Orcs move into the abandoned Khazad-dûm and increase their population until they become a serious threat to travellers and lesser settlements all over Middle-Earth.

Questions: 1) Do I have the above basically right? I read LOTR a long time ago but couldn't make it through the Silmarilion and subsequent works.  2) If yes, why didn't the now-awake Balrog attack the Orcs? Was the Balrog sympathetic to Sauron? I thought it was at least as old as Sauron and wanted to kill pretty much everything, so I don't see why it would let the Orcs take over the city. We know it didn't go back to sleep because Gandalf & Associates ran into it near the entrance of Moria near the end of the Third Age. Thanks. 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 23:39, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The Balrogs had served Morgoth, to whom Sauron was 'chief lieutenant', so if this particular one was still 'with the programme,' it would (I suggest) have regarded Sauron as a colleague or perhaps superior officer, and the orcs as its minions (and possibly lunch). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.169.177 (talk) 07:44, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Why wouldn't the Balrog let the Orcs stay? It's evil; they're evil. It's not like it needs the space to raise little Balrogettes. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:17, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * [Edited] Thrór tried to return to Moria, after the dwarves were expelled from the Lonely Mountain by the dragon Smaug, but when he got there Thrór was killed by the orc Azog, which began the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. Years later, Náin (II), son of Grér, was killed by Azog, during a battle outside the gate of Moria. Dáin (II) Ironfoot, the son of Náin (II), then killed Azog, after which he peered through the gate and saw the Balrog, and didn't like it, and consequently the dwarves went back to living under the Lonely Mountain (now dragon-free, as told in The Hobbit) instead of Moria. Later, Balin returned to Moria and established a colony which lasted five years before being overrun by orcs. Why didn't the Balrog attack Balin's colony? This seems like a bigger plot hole. Ironfoot warned Balin not to attempt the return to Moria: didn't this warning involve saying "look out, there's a Balrog", and if so, why was that not persuasive? The Balrog apparently lurks in the depths by habit, which is a partial explanation, but when Ironfoot was at Moria the Balrog was visible through the gate. I think the best answers are that it's prone to falling asleep for years or decades at a time, and that it's influenced to wake up (or fall asleep again, to spare the orcs?) by the all-seeing Sauron. Card Zero  (talk) 08:54, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Or perhaps it was content to let the orcs deal with a small colony of mere dwarves (it's millennia old, so likely patient), but sensed and needed to confront the presence and threat of a Maia, namely Gandalf. Perhaps, even, Sauron had ordered or influenced it to guard against potentially irksome opponents using Moria to pass secretly through the formidable barrier of the Misty Mountains, unseen by the Eye. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.169.177 (talk) 11:59, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * While freezing to death in the mountain pass, Gandalf is obliged to use magic to start a small fire and laments that he is shouting "Gandalf is here" by doing so, so it's certainly possible. I don't think Tolkein says anything of the sort, but biologically, you have to think that the orcs there - and the balrog too - must be hibernating or otherwise lying dormant in some way or else they'd starve. There are masses of orcs in there that'd required likewise masses of food to eat if they were always up and about. I guess I've always assumed that's what was going on when Pippin accidentally "awoke" them - both orcs and balrog. Matt Deres (talk) 14:45, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Dáin was Thrór's grand-nephew, not his son; do you mean Thráin? (Not gonna go downstairs to check the story right now) —Tamfang (talk) 15:57, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * You're right, I'm confusing two events (2790 and 2799). I'll edit it ... when I untangle it. OK I think it's right now. (I noticed in passing that one of the dwarf kings was called Gróin, which perhaps explains why Dwarfish needs diacritic marks.) Card Zero  (talk) 17:41, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Another possibility: the Balrog does eat orcs, but they keep growing in numbers anyway and have little to no concern for the fate of other individual orcs. And so they would stay despite the conditions, whereas other more reasonable races would have fled long ago. Cambalachero (talk) 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Tolkien toyed with several possibilities for the nature of balrogs (eg. some of his early writings said they were created by Morgoth), but his later writings and the published Silmarillion say that they were Maiar who had chosen to follow Morgoth. Maiar, being essentially angelic beings who existed before the creation of the world, presumably would have no need to eat anything. CodeTalker (talk) 00:13, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, but Gandalf is a Maiar, and he eats, drinks, and smokes. While being of angelic spirits, the Maiar cannot strictly die, but their bodies are subject to the same rules of living flesh as say, elves and men.  We don't have any text to say that the Balrogs eat, but they are Maiar made flesh as well, and presumably subject to the same physical limitations of that body as Gandalf is.  -- Jayron 32 10:58, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Cambalachero That may be as well. That was the understanding Sauron had with Shelob. Matt Deres (talk) 16:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The Sauron-Shelob relationship reflects the cyclic nature of Tolkien's world; a major theme of his writing. Most of the stories of the end of the Third Age/War of the Rings time have parallels with earlier stories from earlier ages.  The Sauron-Shelob relationship closely mirrors that of Morgoth and Ungoliant, Sauron's master and Shelob's mother, respectively, for example.  -- Jayron 32 16:55, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. The book I was reading (extremely good if you're into that sort of thing) tries pretty carefully to follow Tolkien's canon, so I wondered about this issue. Later in the book it became more apparent that the Balrog was supporting the orcs and maybe directing them. I had forgotten or not noticed the bit in LOTR about Gandalf calling unwanted attention to himself by starting the fire. So I thought maybe the Balrog had picked up the presence of the One Ring rather than of Gandalf. Anyway, I guess Tolkien never really makes the matter clear. 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 02:08, 19 July 2022 (UTC)