Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2022 July 8

= July 8 =

Beyonce hip tattoo removal question
When did Beyonce get her hip tattoo (see here: https://twitter.com/sadeyoncee/status/1249688283585503233 ) removed? The more specific the date/timing, the better. 68.4.99.100 (talk) 03:25, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I found this quote, allegedly from an interview with People magazine in 2010:
 * When I was 21, I actually did get a tattoo of an angel that I had painted. It was very, very beautiful. But the next day I woke up, and I was like, “Oh my God! What did I do?” So literally the next week, I started getting it removed. It’s gone now. I went through so many years of pain. I wish I’d taped it for young people to see.
 * So it was a process of many years, starting in 2001 or 2002 and ending not later than 2010. --Lambiam 08:28, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Looking for sources for Musician
Looking for any web sources or books about musicians—specifically the profession—especially if it has a worldwide portrayal of the subject. Ideally, there's information out there like "the origin of society having a seperate jobs for people who play music was in Ancient XYZ in X BCE ..." (etc.) Thank you in advance. — PerfectSoundWhatever  (t; c) 13:40, 8 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I think such a topic would be far too broad and its history goes too far back to be sure of any definite facts, but take a look at Music. Shantavira|feed me 14:54, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. That sucks. But I see information about Ancient Greece that could be of use: "Music was an important part of social and cultural life in ancient Greece, in fact it was one of the main subjects taught to children. Musical education was considered to be important for the development of an individual's soul. Musicians and singers played a prominent role in Greek theater". I could try to find more information to expand on this, since this is about musicians, not just music.
 * Otherwise, any other sources including musicians in general would be great. — PerfectSoundWhatever  (t; c) 15:02, 8 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians in its latest version comes in no less than 29 thick volumes, so broad and complex is the subject. I don't have access to it, but I do have the 1966 reprint of the 5th edition (1954; with supplementary volume 1961). It's a paltry 10 volumes, but was considered good enough for almost 30 years. Perhaps surprisingly, it does not have any articles called "Music", or "Musician". The closest is "Musician's Union" or "Musicology". That tells me you have to ask a rather more specific question. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:28, 8 July 2022 (UTC)


 * It is unlikely that there is an identifiable unique origin; itinerant musical entertainers such as the medieval bards and minstrels arose independently in different cultures, possibly already in prehistoric times. The consensus among historians is that the entertainers in Ancient Greece who gave recitals of the Iliad and the Odyssey sang the verses, with instrumental accompaniment of an instrument in the lyre family (hence our term lyrics), such as the cithara or the phorminx. It is entirely possible that the (much older) Sumerian poems that formed the basis of the Epic of Gilgamesh were likewise musically performed. The Chinese Classic of Poetry is a collection of songs, and courts may have employed singers and other musicians to perform the court hymns and other songs. --Lambiam 08:08, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks! I feel like an overview of the multiple theorized origins could fit well in the article. Where can I find sources for these? — PerfectSoundWhatever  (t; c) 14:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Yesterday I found this source for musicians in ancient Egypt, approximately 4,500 years ago, but I wasn't sure about it for a couple of reasons. What was a "profession" in the Old Kingdom? The page makes interesting statements like "vocalists could also be booked by private individuals", "musicians were connected to the royal court or to a temple", and in contradiction to that "there is no still evidence for music used [as] entertainment at the royal court", but I'd like to know evidence they have for the first two. Early currency doesn't seem fit to support people having creative, entrepreneurial careers. This Ipi person (sometimes written Ipay) was also a priest in the royal court. Was that the norm, was the role assigned by the decree of superiors? Or if you could freely choose to make a living as a musician, what would you be paid with? Grain? Clay receipts for grain? Lumps of copper?  Card Zero  (talk) 14:54, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * These are not putative origins, merely putative occurrences in early historical cultures, possibly tens of centuries later, assuming that "job" includes any type of regularly performed labour rewarded in a way that provides the worker with the means of living. The question is a bit like asking for sources regarding the origin of society having separate jobs for people who mill grains. --Lambiam 15:04, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I was asking for sources for the specific occurrences you gave. I understand that there isn't one single "origin". — PerfectSoundWhatever  (t; c) 02:42, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Artists, musicians, writers, philosophers, alchemists and astrologers have long been supported by patrons. Modocc (talk) 15:22, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * But that requires their society to have become sufficiently stratified into 'richer' and 'poorer' people that such patronage is possible. There is little doubt that the origins of music and musical performers predate the Neolithic, when (broadly) some societies had grown and developed to the extent that this could apply.
 * Many early musical instruments (recognisable as such, which percussively pleasant rocks might not be) would mostly have been made out of organic materials (wood, gut, sinew etc.) which will not have recognisably survived to the present day. The earliest definitely recognisable musical instruments are bone flutes, dating to around 37,000 years Before Present, with an older disputed example being about 67,000 years old: keep in mind also vocal music and the possibility of specialist 'singers'. In this context, both understanding social (including ritual) activities and identifying the origins of 'specialisation in musicianship' are problematic. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.225.65 (talk) 16:36, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * But patronage is not simply limited to the rich supporting the poor. Monestaries Monasteries, communes and ancient tribes could covet talent without being wealthy themselves. Modocc (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Monasteries [sp] were probably a bit thin on the ground 37,000+ years ago. A specialist being supported within a Paleolithic 'commune' or 'tribe' stretches the meaning of 'Patronage' beyond what I would be comfortable with. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.225.65 (talk) 01:39, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Of course, a sufficiently stratified society, perhaps the medieval minstrel, is your criteria for there to be patronage. However, prehistory tribes were also engaging in trade and diplomacy with their neighbors, banding together their acquired assets, and supporting their kin, etc. Exceptional fighters, charismatic singers, and skilled flutists would have had substantially varied status and support, such as patronage, from within their tribes and perhaps beyond. Modocc (talk) 06:50, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
 * True, but those are still stratified societies: what evidence do we have for even the existance of 'tribes' (in the non-Linnean sense) in the Paleolithic, when (if not before) music as a discrete 'thing' presumably originated and some performers of it would have been more proficient than others?
 * I fear we have strayed from the original query into uncharted territory where only unprovable conjectures can be built on a near-complete lack of foundational evidence. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.225.65 (talk) 19:27, 10 July 2022 (UTC)