Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2023 May 17

= May 17 =

Orchestra dress codes
I was wondering what the deal was with the way orchestra musicians insist on dressing? Essentially the people dress as if they are stuck in the 19th Century or thereabouts. I feel that in this modern day and age of inclusivity and casualness, symphony orchestras look out of place with black and white tie usually. White tie in particular is very outdated and is extremely rare in today’s society. Certainly, neither I or anyone I have ever met has worn white tie to any event to my knowledge.

I think it would imperative for these classical musicians to abandon the use of white tie and tails, as it look ridiculous and doesn’t do much for non-western individuals, who should be able to wear something more culturally aware. Also, I wish to stress that a lot of money can be saved by not dealing with these expensive, difficult to maintain clothes, and we young, lower middle class and working class folks can also feel less alienated.

Finally, I am confused as to why classical musicians must always forgot colour in their wardrobes. Would it be that big of a deal for them to introduce a little colour and vibrancy. I’d rather they didn’t look like they were dressed for a funeral to be brutally honest. Coloured ties for the men and coloured dresses for women would make a lot of sense to me. Also, let women wear trousers for god’s sake! Pablothepenguin (talk) 00:43, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Since you don't like it, who's making you watch it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:40, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * What is the relevance of this question? The OP is wondering what the deal is. Are you suggesting that they should keep their eyes closed when attending classical concerts so that they no longer will be bemused? --Lambiam 08:46, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The OP's essay is loaded with false premises. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:22, 17 May 2023 (UTC)


 * It's centuries-old tradition. Why do judges wear robes? In Britain, why do they wear wigs? Ye olde wigs! Also less distracting for the audience; the music's the star. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:28, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yuja Wang often wears a colourful dress. I don't know why she should wear trousers. Why not let the men wear skirts? --Lambiam 08:56, 17 May 2023 (UTC)


 * While full evening dress is traditional for formal concerts, it is by no means universal and can be dependant on context. Here for example is the London Symphony Orchestra with the males wearing dark lounge suits and no ties at all (quelle horreur!). Alansplodge (talk) 10:21, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * And here is the New York Philharmonic Orchestra in open-necked black shirts. Alansplodge (talk) 10:25, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * One more, here are the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra in black shirts and ties. Black seems to be the new black. Alansplodge (talk) 10:32, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Apart from other considerations, conforming to a dress code gives the orchestra as a whole a look of neatness, contributes to its esprit de corps, does not make any individual stand out visually (except for guest soloists who are supposed to) thus distracting the audience's attention (per Clarityfiend above), and relieves the individual members of any worries about what to wear and whether it might be inadvertently inappropriate for the occasion. Also, it's fun to dress up for special occasions.
 * As for cost, since these 'working clothes' are not worn for any other occasions than actual performances, they are not "difficult to maintain" (no more than other styles of clothing, at any rate), and where musicians are self-employed (as most are) their cost can be claimed against tax allowances. {The poster formerly known as 87.81,.230.195} 90.199.210.77 (talk) 10:52, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The only actual question in the OP's rant was why orchestras dress formally and/or uniformly, and you've answered it very well. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:33, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * While it is understood that orchestras like uniformity, I on the other hand do not. Generally I want musicians to stand out and look as trendy as possible. I do not want to see a bunch of upper-class toffs in funeral wear. For too long orchestras have been too elitist and out of touch with the working man. That is why I am the way I am here; I just want more casualness and I definitely do not want to feel like I am the poorest man in the room with the cheapest clothes.
 * I am a realist and a practical wardrobe should be one that doesn’t burden its wearers with clothes that would be ruined by a home washing machine or tumble drier. Also, the general trend over the last hundred years or so is towards less formality in many areas, and orchestras are in danger of getting more and more ridiculous by the day.
 * I want clothes to be as colourful as the music their wearers play. Wearing black is boring and unoriginal. Colour is good; it can help working-class youngsters be less bored. Pablothepenguin (talk) 15:46, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * How many of these formally-dressed concerts have you actually attended? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I haven’t attended any, but I have watched videos of them on the internet. I am just not comfortable being the shabbiest person in the room. Pablothepenguin (talk) 16:40, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * You can be as shabby as you want in your own home! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:12, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It follows that you are not comfortable being alone in a room, because in that case you are definitely the shabbiest person in the room. --Lambiam 19:58, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Technically I would also be the least shabbiest person in the room in that case, so it all works out. Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:32, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * So this is the nub of your issue: Your personal discomfort at being shabby when among better-dressed people. You have a problem. You choose to be shabby, yet you seem to deny others the right to choose to dress to a higher standard. Why not try dressing better yourself, and see if this works better than wanting to drag others down to your level. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:29, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I can’t afford black or white tie, so can’t just dress better unfortunately. I just want to enjoy the music without looking poor. White tie has no place in modern society. It is an anachronism from a past era. And it should stay in the past. I very much doubt that Generations Z or later are interested in white tie anyway. Pablothepenguin (talk) 00:02, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Based on what evidence? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:36, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
 * , your logic is flawed. While some orchestras sometimes perform in white tie or similarly formal wear, the audience are not required to. A small minority of performances see much of the audience dressed in Evening wear, but any male would not stand out (especially in the cheapest seats) if dressed in a lounge suit or something one might wear to an interview for an office job, and for most orchestral performances any "Smart casual" wear would be acceptable. If you lack such clothing, you ought to be able to find suitable trousers, jacket, shirt and tie at Charity shops (thrift stores) for under £/$25 total (or local equivalent). Dressing appropriately and neatly (and cleanly) shows respect for others around you: if you refuse to conform to social norms at public events, don't complain that you (would) feel out of place at them. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.210.77 (talk) 12:11, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
 * In several visits to classical concerts at the Royal Albert Hall and Cadogan Hall in London, I have never seen any males in the audience wearing either white tie or black tie evening dress, in fact a majority lack a tie entirely. Smart casual seems to be usual, but some go in jeans and a sweatshirt, while those who have come straight from the office are in business suits. Alansplodge (talk) 12:52, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Why does the way the musicians dress affect your listening to them? Dress how you want, ignore anyone in the audience who might give you the side eye for how you are dressed, and just ignore the way the musicians are dressed. YOU are the one placing limits on YOUR enjoyment. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:11, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Japanese culture doesn't seem to mind the formal dress. Check out this rendition of Beethoven's Ninth: ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:38, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Getting back on topic…
I accept that I’m a bit funny when it comes to handling dress codes. I just need to think carefully about this. Anyway, I guess all I need to do right now is get some more perspective here. As such, I was wondering how orchestras ended up looking so old-fashioned and not with the times? Would it be a good idea for them to pursue modernisation techniques? I’m think of things like dressing more causally or adding more popular music covers to the repertoire. I feel like these orchestras should try to do things to shake off the upper-class elitist image that some people unfortunately think they have. I appreciate all insights and useful comments here. Pablothepenguin (talk) 19:39, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * What sources to you find to support your personal opinion? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:17, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I base my option on the general process of becoming more casual over the decades. For instance, the coronation of King Charles III was a shorter and more concise service than his mother’s coronation. In particular, the 1953 service featured a large number of lords and other nobles in red robes and coronets. Charles’s service this year omitted these people, and therefore shortened the service considerably, as it used to be the custom for each one to come up to the monarch individually to swear allegiance.


 * Another good example of this phenomenon is that morning dress used to be the custom at US presidential inaugurations as recently as that of John F Kennedy. Nowadays, business suits are generally worn instead. Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:39, 20 May 2023 (UTC)


 * But morning dress was specified for the coronation. Orchestras do sometimes dress casually (examples posted above) and sometimes they don't. Shouldn't they be free to choose? Alansplodge (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I think the real essence of the thing is that the orchestra members all wear the same clothes. Whether it's white tie, business suits, or green t-shirts and blue jeans, is beside the point. The idea is that a group of people look a lot better to an audience if they have some sort of "uniform" dress code. Soldiers marching would march just as well with or without their uniforms, but the visual aspect of the thing would be severely compromised if they all dressed "come as you are". I'm sure orchestras in recording studios or rehearsal rooms would be wearing a wide variety of clothing; but playing for an audience in a concert hall is a different matter, requiring a dress code. What exactly that dress code is, has varied and will continue to evolve. Same applies to choirs and all manner of musical groups. Even rock bands generally have their own clothing style, but there's more room for individuality. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:55, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Not that long ago the conductor of an orchestra operated as a dictator, so they presumably set the dress code. The traditional "uniform" look is much more uniform across different orchestras in different countries than school uniforms or various professional uniforms. For one thing, the outer garment layers are almost always black, any other visible layers are white, the male members wear bow ties and the female members long dresses. The whole outfit can typically be bought as ready-to-wear clothing in retail stores. So the mere contribution of a uniform dress code to the group looking good cannot be the whole story. This photo from 1882 shows this dress code for an orchestra in a time in which it was also the standard dress code for non-musician gentlemen when doing business or going to the club. Perhaps it become frozen as the uniform orchestra dress code because the styles for business attire that developed later were not so uniform. One other profession in which this dress code survived for a long time is that of waiter in a classy restaurant. Another aspect contributing to the persistence may be audience expectation. --Lambiam 09:06, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I do understand the need to look uniform, but why does it have to be black? Given that black is traditionally associated with funerals and very dark macabre things, and given that most people don’t wear all black, wouldn’t it be a logical approach for orchestras to try other jacket and dress colours such as white and navy blue? Why not go even further and have the women in coloured dresses and the men in coloured shirts, with or without coloured ties? Todays youth don’t wear black unless they are at a funeral or are part of some goth/heavy metal type subculture.
 * If you go to a formal party, such as a wedding reception or a royal state dinner, the women at least would have coloured dresses whilst remaining extremely formal. Also, I can’t help but notice that orchestra dress codes are sexist anyhow. The women should be allowed to wear trousers if they like. And non-binary people won’t know what to wear. Another issue with the dress code is that it would be exceeding uncomfortable during a heat wave, so such things are inherently poor in certain ways. Finally, I’ll mention that orchestra dress codes are awful for people with severe disabilities, as the clothes may be difficult to put on for them. Also, people with sensory processing difficulties might find the clothes to be rather uncomfortable, due to the heaviness of the materials and the fact that they are generally not as soft as those used in casual clothes. Pablothepenguin (talk) 18:45, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The convention was set in stone long before even women were permitted to play in orchestras, let alone people with physical disabilities. Strange that playing music at home was long considered a woman's thing, and sort of unmanly; but when it came to playing in orchestras, it was strictly men only. So of course it's going to be seen as sexist, ableist and whatever other -ists we abhor in these enlightened times. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:26, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Women in classical music is a fascinating read. There we learn that the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra did not accept its first woman member till ... 2003! --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:31, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Those are interesting reads by the way. I think we have established now that I hate uniformity for many reasons, but mainly due to the fact that many people like myself, people with disabilities, and people from minority cultures are not accounted for. It’s not that we are refusing to conform on purpose, but rather we just can’t do it due to extreme discomfort and displeasure. Taking myself as an example, I am from a working-class background, and I have devoutly socialist beliefs when it comes things like the aristocracy and classical music. I also believe that said classical music is a product of the elite, and that for hundreds of years it has been virtually the most hostile genre there could be towards the working class.


 * I also believe that the class structures of old should be abolished immediately. Therefore, some aspects of class must go, such as white tie and peerages for the upper class, and the low wages and financial insecurity of the working class. Orchestras must therefore adjust their appearance in order to remove their upper class clothes and attitudes. They should be more visually attractive and more conversational with their audiences, like popular musicians since the 1960s. Finally, I shall state that live orchestras and bands should be used in more situations, such the Eurovision Song Contest, and it chart-topping hits. Pablothepenguin (talk) 11:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * As a fan of Symphonic metal, I don't disagree with your last point, and of course orchestral backing is used in popular music more than most people notice. However, the sheer logistics and cost make live orchestral participation in pop/rock very difficult (though not impossible for one-off concerts or static shows). A band doing a year-long 100-gig world tour cannot take the London Philharmonic and Metro Voices Choir along with it for obvious reasons, so has to use backing tracks on stage.
 * Your other points I disagree with. Having grown up partly in a very Socialist household (my Mother's godmother was Ellen Wilkinson) I have seen that many of such attitudes are self-imposed. Too many Socialists are still fighting battles of the 1920's which have long since been won. As The Cranberries observed in 'Zombie', social and political disputes can become ossified into useless and destructive habits. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.210.77 (talk) 14:13, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Nothing you say here will make that happen. This is an encyclopedia, not a parliament or debating society. Alansplodge (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * That would be sufficient grounds for boxing up this discussion. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:58, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It will be archived soon anyway. Pablothepenguin (talk) 15:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)