Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2023 November 8

= November 8 =

How many movie stars started as extras?
And if there are no known numbers, are there at least some reliably sourced known instances of this? Let's say the criterion is that the person was filmed as an extra for at least one movie, before beginning a notable acting career. I think it doesn't matter whether the footage of them as an extra actually appeared in the finished movie, or whether the person had some credited roles (bit parts etc.) before being an extra. Purpose of question is to better understand the current AFTRA dispute where the studios want perpetual likeness rights for extras. Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6375 (talk) 21:20, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * You would have to first come up with a list of "stars" (however that's defined) and then look for their first known appearance in a movie. For one example, see Sylvester Stallone filmography. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Stallone is a good example.  I meant movie star informally, basically an actor who is at least a minor celebrity rather than someone known only to film buffs.  A major celebrity like Stallone is even better.  If I understood the sticking point in the actors' strike, the studios wanted perpetual likeness rights for anyone who appeared as an extra (they knew better than to try that on name actors).  So if they had gotten Stallone to sign that contract back in the day, they could be releasing blockbusters with deepfakes of him now.  I have heard that the strike was just suspended (I guess they reached a contract agreement) so I'll be interested to see what happened with that clause. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:6375 (talk) 03:32, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Since I logged in for another reason I might as well say this. Was this really going to be restricted to extras? I mean obviously maybe they weren't going to try it on actors who already had a significant profile but my understanding is the fear is they would do it for all actors starting off with fairly minor roles rather than just extras specifically. This would probably apply to a lot of actors since only very few get fairly major roles early on. Some even do it for a long time before they have success. Harrison Ford is a notable example of someone who largely played bit roles for quite a while some of the early ones at least were uncredited. Speaking to 97's point below, his extra roles lack a proper record. (Ford's breakthrough in American Graffiti]] was about 7 years after that first known role.) While his uncredited role might not have been as an extra, and even if this or something similar was really was his first role, I don't see a reason to think the fact he said "Paging Mr Ellis" about 5 times, alog with Mr Ellis and "No sir, Charles Ellis room 607" and "Yes sir" even if he did it like a bellhop rather than a movie star, would have meant it any less likely such requirements would be imposed. Nil Einne (talk) 05:29, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to further emphasise the point, while I have not followed either the strike or the actor's union's concerns, my understanding is their fear is that likeness rights will be demanded early on in an actor's carrier when the power imbalance is significant, and where the actor may be desperate for some role and/or money. The Ford example actually illustrates this too IMO. If we put partly put aside the early stuff, if Ford had been asked for likeness rights as a precondition for his American Graffiti role is he likely to have rejected this? I mean I'm sure Ford didn't quite realise how significant that role would be, but I think it was still his first fairly major role in a production that seemed significant. How significant a role becomes does depend on a lot of factors including the success of a film which an actor can only slightly predict, the actor's role but also their perceived performance in it both in terms of the public and critics but also producers, directors, casting directors etc, the contacts they make along with I'm sure many other factors the actor can barely fantom in the early stage but my understanding is the American Graffiti role was still likely seen as significant by Ford even before the movie came out. I'd note even if requiring likeliness rights is banned, there's still a risk people will perceive its rejection might be an unprovable factor in why they don't get roles, e.g. I'm not sure how true the Ford offended Tokofsky making him unfavoured story is but it wouldn't be surprising if Ford came to believe it for whatever reason. More to the point early on in an actor's career, enough money to sustain them for e.g. a year or two in a rundown apartment with cheap food may be very tempting to many especially if they feel it will allow them to e.g. dedicate greater time to try to get acting roles. Nil Einne (talk) 06:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
 * In the earlier days of filmmaking, I think, beginning as an extra was rather common. See the first sentence of John Wayne, for instance. Deor (talk) 13:18, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a case where absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Film extras are not listed. I have been an extra in multiple films. My name is not listed anywhere. I was paid on the spot, in cash, without sharing any information. So, it is impossible to make a list of everyone who has ever been an extra. You are limited to anecdotes in which a person admitted to being an extra. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 19:03, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Film Facts by Patrick Robertson (a/k/a The Guinness Book of Movie Facts and Feats) lists some stars who are identified as starting out as extras, among them Gary Cooper, Marlene Dietrich, Clark Gable, Jean Harlow, Harold Lloyd, Sophia Loren, Marilyn Monroe, David Niven, and Rudolph Valentino. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:32, 15 November 2023 (UTC)