Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2006 December 12

= December 12 =

what did elisabeth kinsolving write?
i read an anthology of her poetry a long time ago. She became one of my favorite poets, but i believe i found her book in a used book store and she may not have been very prolific. Does anyone know where i can find any information about her or what she wrote? I've search amazon, google and metacrawler with no luck. thanks for any help.


 * Do you mean Susan Kinsolving? You will find her website here  Clio the Muse 00:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

i'm pretty sure it was elisabeth. i believe it was a book from the 70's. but thanks.


 * It's such an unusual surname that I am surprised there is more than one! But, as you have discovered, there is no mention of an Elizabeth Kinsolving on Google, which is fairly unusual, unless she is, or was, a very minor poet indeed.  Clio the Muse 01:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe Barbra Kingsolver. She wrote The Bean Trees, first published in 1988. schyler 02:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Barbara Kingsolver didn't publish anything in the 70's, but perhaps the surname is spelt differently, though the list of variants is here didn't help me find anything. For what it's worth, Sally Bruce Kinsolving published four books of poems between 1921 and 1942 (in the major library collections I checked, these are the only two Kinsolving poetesses).  A fictional Elizabeth Kinsolving is found guility of murder in Raymond Chandler's screenplay Playback.  Wareh 02:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * So there really is more than one poet with the name Kinsolving? Live and learn!  Clio the Muse 06:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I also have been searching for her, also found an anthology of her poems, in a used bookstore on martha's vineyard island. there was the one about "...like mariners who embark to sail, through stormy night, past fog and gail...or a deed of pity done in a squalid street at noon... these are harbingers of peace..." please update if she is located!

Name of fiction book with a quantum twists
My mother read a book in which the opening chapter consists of a wierd quantum relationship where a little boy is sitting on a peir dreaming about growing up to be a writer, while the writer his is dreaming about being is writing the story about the boy. I remember the author was male. Additionally the Trade Paper version of the book pictured the peir if I remember correctly. I have sought in vain for this title, but have yet to discover it. I rather hope that it will sound familiar to someone.

Thanks, D.M. Arney — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmarney (talk • contribs) 02:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi - could this be The Affirmation by Christopher Priest? It's a long time since I read it, but it features that kind of recursive relationship. Cheers, Sam Clark 08:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * several dutch poets have written books in that style, though I doubt you will have any use for that. should you discover the title somewhere else could you please write it down here? I still need a book for my english literature list and this sounds quite interesting. Graendal 06:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

UN Charter regarding military action at the time of the Korean War
Hello all!

I'm wondering which document of the UN was applicable to military intervention during the time of the Korean War - what the policy of the UN was, at that time, towards military intervention (and also, if available, an online source for this particular document?). Any help is appreciated!

Thanks. ArcticFlame 07:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Uniting for Peace -- AnonMoos 03:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The intervention was authorized by UN Security Council resolutions 82 - 85 under the authority of Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter. --Spoon! 20:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Ahh... all right. Is there a document regarding military interventions in general (in the 1950s... as in scope, when UN military interventions are legal/justified, etc.)?

Thanks again for the help. -- ArcticFlame 07:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Korean seems to have been an exception. The first armed UN peacekeeping force wasn't until 1956 (United Nations Emergency Force in Suez) and it was considered innovative. Rmhermen 21:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Percentage of a TV series
Is there an easy way to calculate how many episodes of a given TV series I have see? Take the Simpsons, how can I calculate how many episodes out of the 385 I have seen without going though each one and reading the synopsis? An online survey perhaps? --The Dark Side 03:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Doubtful. You'd be better off just reading each synopsis, it doesn't that that long. I didn't really realise there were 385 Simpsons episodes -- I've seen each one, most of them multiple times.
 * What a waste of 8470++ minutes of your life :-P Nil Einne 13:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Imagine what you could do on wikipedia with 508,200 seconds... :-) | A ndonic O Talk 19:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Rodeo
Could anyone tell what the the storyline of Aaron Copland's ballet Rodeo is? (The articles on Copland and Rodeo didn't have much.) Thanks in advance. --Philosofinch 05:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * See here (pdf file) or its html-version for a plot outline. The piece is sometimes subtitled The Courting at Burnt Ranch (subtitle and ballet by Agnes de Mille).

Original Grant of Land from John Ingram dated 1416 A.D.
Hello,

I am trying to find a document or more detailed information on a document that I currently own, which I believe to be a historical document. The document is in in its original state, well intact and has the original wax seal with it. The document appears to be written in latin and and the caption that is with the document states that it is an "original grant of land from John Ingram dated 1416 A.D. during the regin of King Henry V. Along with the document is a photograph of King Henry V, a photograph of the battle of shrewsbury 1485 a.d. and also a photograph of a judge in wardrobe form the 1400's.  I am not sure the correlation of all the items that are containted in a picture frame for the preservation of them all.

I would like to see if I can find out any further information on these items, if at all possible. I would welcome any valid information or some guidance as to where i can do further research on them.

please if anyone can help me with my research on these items, please contact me at. Thank you in advance for any and all help in this. I look forward to hearing from someone soon in the near future.

Sincerely;

Staceysangel

...
 * Er, photographs of the fifteenth century? Sam Clark 08:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, Stacey. It's not really a good idea to include your email here.


 * Anyway, I have a feeling that this might be a facsimile of some kind, for the simple reason that a document of this antiquity would now be showing strong signs of ageing. Is the seal broken or intact?  Again, if it is an original, the seal will almost certainly be broken.  The way you describe it suggests that it is in some kind of presentation case or frame, with a modern English descriptive text and illustrations (not photographs!) from the life of Henry V.  But look again at the date of the battle.  The Battle of Shrewsbury, in which Henry fought when he was still Prince of Wales, took place in 1403, not 1485.  If you can-assuming it is not behind glass-take the document in your hands.  If it is an original it will be on vellum or parchment, made from animal skin, which will feel quite different to modern paper.  Once you have done this come back with any more specific questions that might arise.  But if you really do think it is genuine it might be best to have it examined by an expert.  Clio the Muse 08:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Further to Clio's excellent post, a suggestion: if you could take some digital photos of the items, that might help somewhat. You could temporarily post them in your user space and then let us know here. --Dweller 09:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Or, he/she could just put it here instead. By the way, or article on John Ingram says he was born in 1565. Google confirms this with the first few links. I'd say that's a little off from your dates. | A ndonic O Talk 11:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * There have probably been several thousand John Ingrams. Neither name is that unusual. --Dweller 12:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

... (My response was removed to the talk page by another user. Go there if you want to see it. I see no need to get into an edit war of this but I disagree with the removal. I still doubt the sincerity of the question asker and I still think even if the user was being sincere the question was so poorly phrased that the comment was deserved. If this had been a case of language difficulties, I would have been more forgiving but it's not. Kind of ironically, given that the person asked for a response by e-mail there's a fair chance they won't even read any of this. Anyway, I will not be partaking further in this discussion but please don't remove this response. Nil Einne 22:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC))


 * The question clearly means there are photos of paintings. And as for looking at a digital image of the document, how could you tell whether it was a scan of an original or a scan of a good reproduction?  I have seen much older documents in museums and cathedrals in England which still have their wax seals. All we can really do is what some have attempted, i.e. check for anachronisms, then perhaps check for what similar random legal documents of minor historical figures have sold for recently at auction, and perhaps look for any reports of similar fraudulent documents. Antiques Roadshow ran a segment where someone had found a genuine letter from George Washington in an old box of junk, and their kid took it to school for show and tell, and the teacher announced it was clearly a fake.   The questioner probably should take it to someone qualified to examine and evaluate it, to make sure it is authentic, find out the value for insurance purposes, and make sure it is framed with archival materials, (acid paper can destroy a document) or whether it should be kept out of the light. Edison 15:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * What about the text? Does anyone hear know about the Black Salamander letter? Well, it was a fraud which evaded police because the text was made to look cracked. Perhaps the the text here can be checked (under a microscope) to see if the ink looks cracked? | A ndonic O <i style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Tan;">Talk</i> 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The questioner wants more information about the document, not just to find out if it's genuine and to that end, a scan will be extremely helpful, whether it's an original or reproduction. --16:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dweller (talk • contribs)  toned downDweller 16:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Public conversation
Could you please suggest me  some points over  the topic " How does cultural background and family upbringing  affect you and your  speaking abilities?"


 * See U and non-U English and Google "restricted code" + "elaborate code": . -THB 10:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * See also cultural capital. Sam Clark 14:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * A different set of points: One way of reading this is that you are being asked about yourself, not about a general sort of theory. It may be that whoever set the question was trying to raise your awareness of where you come from, how it affects you, and what you may wish to change. Taking it this way, you could do something like: What are my own speaking abilities? I talk too softly; I talk too quickly. What is my cultural background and upbringing? My cultural background says one should be respectful. It says children are not allowed to say what they think. My upbringing was half by family, half by orphanage. 10 sisters, I was only son. What part of my cultural background and upbringing is reflected in my speaking? I talk softly because in my culture (as described) it is considered polite never to raise one's voice. I am hesitant and afraid of talking publicly (children shouldn't speak up). I sometimes shout when I have a point to make (because that is what I learned I had to do to get heard in the orphanage). I talk too quickly because I had 10 sisters who were always trying to talk first. --Seejyb 21:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Four more years!
Considering the 22 amandment to the US constitution, is there any possibility that any of the post-WW2 presidents would have won an election for a third term as president? Would Ronald Reagan have succeeded? Thuresson 08:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * From memory, wasn't Bill Clinton achieving very hight approval ratings as he left office? --Sandy Scott 09:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Bear in mind altho it's interesting to analyse each President on merit, it's actually a rather complicated issue, impossible to accurately consider. For starters, it's rather likely a President's popularity would have varied if the amendment hadn't been in place. People's perception of the person would likely vary if they were considering him (I usually like to be gender neutral but all US Presidents to this day have been male) for re-election. More significantly, the actions of the President and the responses of the people around him (especially Congress and the Senata) would probably vary if he were going to be facing re-election rather then a lame duck (to use American terminology). More importantly though, if you really want to consider the matter properly, you'd have to realise there is a good chance the people who became President, and when they became President would vary even if no one had been elected for a third time. For example, I believe GHWB a Republican was immedietly after Ronald Reagan. If Ronald Reagan had run and won the primary, obviously GHWB would not have been President from 1989 to 1992. It could have been Ronald Reagan or the Democrat candidate (who might not have been Michael Dukakis). Even if Reagan hadn't won the primary, if he has contested it, he could have easily changed the outcome. So even if none of the people from 1960 or whenever this amendment was introduced had a chance of winning, there's still a very good :chance they would have changed the people who did win. And in this case, we're not even considering the other point I made about how a Presidents actions would have probably been different. So while it's interesting to consider, bear in mind it's too complicated to actually make any resonable guesses Nil Einne 13:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The 22nd Amendment was a response to the long presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt, who was the first to violate the 2 term max tradition of George Washington. With the amendment, the U.S. might be spared a future with an "aging strongman" who has the money and influence to stay in power for life. The President in power when it was ratified, Harry Truman was exempted, and could have theoretically run for a third term (or more), but his popularity rating during the Korean War and after firing Douglas MacArthur was so low (only 36% of Democrats wanted him for a 3rd term per United States presidential election, 1952 that he chose not to run. Polling data for all postwar Presidents can be found at and is used in the following, looking at Jan-May of the election year, when candidate selection gets down to the wire before and during the primaries. (Granted, the responses might have varied if a President were allowed to run again.) Truman joked about running for a third term after he turned 80, but he was content to hang around the Truman library and discuss history with visitors. Eisenhower was popular: his Gallup approval rating Jan-May 1960 was 62% to 66%, but even if the amendment had allowed him to run for a 3rd term, he had suffered a heart attack in 1955 and a stroke in 1957, so he was medically questionable in 1960. He had even wavered over running for a second term in 1956 because of health, per Eisenhower's Presidency. Kennedy died young, and Johnson did not do well in primaries and his approval was so low, 36% in March 1968, that he chose not to run for a second term. Nixon 's approval was so low during Watergate, 23% that he would have been an unlikely candidate for a third term. Ford and Carter failed re-election to a second term. Reagan was 76 at the end of his second term, but his approval rating of 48% to 51% in the Jan-May 1988 was such that he might have been a viable candidate for a third term, especially with a Vice President who appeared qualified to take over if he became incapacitated, and after the landslide reelection to his second term. Reagan later called for the repeal of the 22nd Amendment, so it looks like he had no philosophical objection to a third term. His Alzheimers did not become known until 1994, over a year after his third term would have ended with him at age 81. George H.W. Bush failed relection to a second term. After 2 terms, Clinton's approval, 52% to 70% in various polls, Jan-May 2000 was high enough he might have been a viable candidate, despite his impeachment. George W. Bush's approval rating has ranged from 31% to 38% in the past month. The unpopularity of the Iraq War would be a burden if he were up for a third term, but the economy has been doing well and he remains a strong fund raiser, so if the Democrats nominated a candidate with high disapproval or who could be attacked effectively with TV ads, who can say what might happen. Edison 17:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually Franklin Roosevelt was not the first to "violate the two-term tradition"; he was only the first to do it successfully. See U.S. Grant and Theodore Roosevelt. Both men tried for a third term after 4 years out of office, but failed to get the Republican Party's nomination; in Roosevelt's case he then started a third party, an action which is often said to have split the Republican vote and given the victory to the Democratic candidcate, Wilson.  (In about 30 states Wilson won a plurality but not a majority of the popular vote; of course this does not prove that he would have won without Roosevelt running). --Anonymous, December 13, 02:50 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.176.159.90  (talk • contribs)


 * O.K., FDR was the first to successfully get re-elected to a third and fourth consecutive term. I knew about Teddy Roosevelt but had not heard about Grant. His administration was widely criticized for corruption, so I wonder if he had any serious chance. The article cited says that he wanted the job but said nothing publicly. This may fall short of an attempt to secure a third term, since lots of former Presidents might have privately wished they were back in office. Sources are needed to shopw that he was behind a "draft Grant" movement. The earlier attempts clearly did not lead to any amendment to the constitution to prevent a recurrence. And someone who pops in and out of office as in the attempts cited would be more like a parliamentary government and less likely to become an entrenched "aging strong man" using the power of the state such as the secret police to stifle opposition. Edison 15:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to all of you for taking time to answer this question. Thuresson 01:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Where was Morgoth during the Third Age?
In The Lord of the Rings, while Sauron is raising a gigantic Orcish army, and gathering Easterlings under his wing, where is Morgoth during the whole affair? Encased in some underground prison? Floating about the ether? Or has he already been 'vaporized', so to speak, as what happens >>>SPOILER WARNING<<< to Sauron later on? And please don't say, "In The Silmarillion"; I do know that much. :) Thanks. Lehokhan 16:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I did check out the link to Morgoth -- apparently, he was locked outside 'the Door of Night'. So, my next question is -- how would, say, Gandalf get to the 'Door of Night' from the Shire? Sail over the sea, past the Elfhome, and keep going? Or is this where The Lord of the Rings must be treated at a non-literal, metaphorical level only? Lehokhan 17:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Why do think Gandalf went there? Rmhermen 19:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that Lehokhan is simply asking, 'where exactly is the Door of Night'? Vranak 16:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * As I understood it - it's not in middle earth or the 'planet' as such - more a sort or valhalla/heaven for baddys.. Taking the description literally you could guess he was dumped somewhere in outerspace ie beyond the stars, but I'd say it's not the sort of place a mortal could physically reach.87.102.8.6 17:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Morgoth was deprived of all power to directly intervene in Middle Earth affairs over 6,000 years before the events of the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, and over 4,000 years before Gandalf first appeared in Middle Earth. AnonMoos 19:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * See also Minor places in Middle-earth - the door of night may be a 'hole' for the sun to pass through on it's journey through day to night..? (actually sounds a bit like a black hole.)87.102.8.6 17:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Lots more here http://tolkien.cro.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=379&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=64 "But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the doors of night beyond the walls of the world, into the timeless void"87.102.8.6 17:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Boney went to Elbow
Napoleon was "exiled" to Elba in 1814. Why did the allies allow his exile to be so comfortable (made "Emperor" of the island, allowed 600 guards, etc.)? And how could they be so stupid as to let him escape? All this seems extraordinary, and Wikipedia doesn't seem to shed any light. --Auximines 17:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The coast was regularly patrolled by ?British? ships, and it wasn't thought that he could actually leave without being seen. Also, I doubt anyone could forsee the French coming to love him (the people at least) after all he had done, especially in Russia. | <b style="font-family:Papyrus; color:black;">A</b> ndonic <b style="font-family:Papyrus; color:Black; font-size:small;">O</b> <i style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Tan;">Talk</i> 19:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello, Auximines. Yes, you are absolutely correct: in retrospect sending Napoleon to Elba was a considerable mistake, one that was not repeated in 1815.  But, of course, history is never made with the benefit of hindsight.  As so often in the past, the allies misread Napoleon, and his remarkable ability to recover from a very difficult position.  But they also misread France.  In 1814 the country was close to military, economic and political exhaustion.  Napoloeon was abandoned by virtually everyone, the army included, and it seemed inconceivable that he would ever be welcomed back.  But France was still fighting, and fighting well, even after the disaster at Leipzig and elsewhere; and as the allies wanted a quick victory and the departure of Napoleon, their chief war aim, they agreed generous terms, which suited all sides.  After the departure of the Emperor the King returned; and all seemed content that France would move down a tranquil and legitimate road.  But Louis XVIII was not the man to inspire much in the way of affection, and it did not take France long to recover from the shock of defeat, especially as the allies had behaved with such leniency.  Shying away from bourgeois respectability, France, for one brief period, took again to living dangerously.


 * But why Elba, and why under such loose terms of supervision? The simple answer is that the allies of 1814 had no unified view on how the fallen Emperor should be treated, and there was no precedent in European history for dealing with such a problem.  But the most important factor of all was that Napoleon still had one important admirer among his enemies, and one with a particularly decisive voice-his former ally, Tsar Alexander of Russia.  Alexander disliked the Bourbons, and still remembered the days of Tilsit, the invasion of 1812 notwithstanding.  A chastened Emperor of Elba was the best solution for Alexander, a way of embarrassing Louis without offering any serious threat to himself.  But Elba was but a short sailing distance from mainland Europe, and the waters could be patrolled constantly.  After Napoleon succcessfully managed to return to France in the spring of 1815, Alexander angrily asked the Duke of Wellington, the leading British commander, Why did you let him escape?  To this Wellington responded, Why did you place him there?  As far as I am aware no reply was ever recorded.  Clio the Muse 20:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the replies, all very interesting. I did wonder whether there might have been some negotiations before Napoleon surrendered "unconditionally". It still all strikes me as very odd, and I'm surprised the issue isn't more widely discussed. The allies seemed to treat him more like a vanquished medieval king than the common tyrant he really was. Compare the treatment of Saddam today! Perhaps you'd care to expand the Elba article, Clio... --Auximines 22:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I suspect that this is straying into chat rather than question-answering territory, but I'm not convinced that 'vanquished medieval king' and 'common tyrant' are mutually exclusive categories... Cheers, Sam Clark 22:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I was really suggesting that maybe there was a fear of treating him too harshly. Divine right of kings and all that. Even though he wasn't royalty. --Auximines 23:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * To be honest with you the crowned heads of Europe were more inclined to view Napoleon as an upstart, rather than a tyrant. Concepts like 'tyrant' and 'dictator' really belonged to the world of Classical antiquity.  Beyond the radical fringe, they did not form a part of contemporary political discourse.  After all, it would have hardly have done for Tsar Alexander or Kaiser Francis to dismiss Napoleon as a 'tyrant'.  In practical terms you are quite right, Auximines, he was a tyrant, the first of the modern age, it might be argued.  But it really wasn't until the twentieth century that the old usages came back to life.  Clio the Muse 01:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Fixed my comment. | <b style="font-family:Papyrus; color:black;">A</b> ndonic <b style="font-family:Papyrus; color:Black; font-size:small;">O</b> <i style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Tan;">Talk</i> 11:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

horsemen and marshall on Parthenon
What is the significance of the horsemen and marshall on the Parthenon?°Pgbarnes 17:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC) Does this freize depict a battle or procession? Any info would be appeciated. PGBarnes

Did you read Parthenon? Does that answeer your question? User:Zoe|(talk) 18:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Comba Tai in America
After winning the interservice Pacific Wide Championships in Okinawa 1983, Alonzo M. Jones told the “Filipino Flyer” of the “Pacific Stars and Stripes” that he was a direct descendent of a supposed 6,000 year old royal warrior tradition of boxing, wrestling and stick fighting called Geziret el Malik from ancient Nubia.

The wrestling and stick fighting style of Geziret el Malik favors the Nuba style and are thought to be descended of the Medjay Kushites or Nubians who ruled Egypt during the 25th Dynasty and even as far back as pre-dynastic Egypt. The Smithsonian in June 1993 said: The Nubian Pharaohs of the 25th Dynasty ruled with an enlighten benevolence. They were medicis (patrons of art and literature), rather than Caesars, who awoke Egypt to the artistic and cultural splendor of its own past as they patronize artists, revived lost learning and rebuilt derelict temples.” The Nuba of today seem to practice the same style of wrestling of the Nubians during the times of the Pharaohs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuba_fighting). http://www.mashufaa.co.uk/Mashufaa%20History%20of%20Martial%20Arts_files/image037.jpg

In this interview Jones further claimed Geziret el Malik is a direct descendent of the oldest martial art in the world created by the Nubians/Kushites. He later discovered that the earliest known depictions of martial arts practitioners were found at Beni Hasan in Egypt. As such he speculated with some that those fighting techniques made their way to India and ultimately the rest of Asia. Therefore it is likely that all martial arts were affected by fighting forms from Egypt. Jones further claimed the Kushites were probably the progenitors of Egypt (http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/qib.jpg). In 1984 after Alonzo M. Jones won a tournament called “The Asian World Full Contact Martial arts Championships” while stationed in the Republic Philippines, he and a Boxer, Kajukembo and Kuk Su Woon practitioner, Grand Master Leamon Tillmon, founded the Combat Academy, Institute of Martial arts. It was later changed to the World Combat Academy Institute of Health and Fitness. He was taught this military system by his grandfather, Dr. Samuel Adams Jones, the senior pastor of Greater Sunlight Baptist Church in New Orleans Louisiana. Dr. S.A. Jones died in 1994 at 98 years of age. Dr. S.A. Jones bestowed the birth right upon Jones after receiving his D.Min degree from Eternal Word Graduate School, making Dr. Alonzo M. Jones the soul heir and sovereign grand master of an Order descendent of the Knights of Ethiopia called the Knights of Saint Anthony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_St._Anthony), The Royal Order of the Sword and Shield. The first two Students of Alonzo M. Jones to be inducted into the American Royal Order of the Sword and Shield were Robert D. Parham Jr. and Sebron Jackson--1987, Biloxi Mississippi. Because the African Martial arts was devised in America and many of the African names for techniques lost in the passage of time; Dr. Alonzo M. Jones called the cultural tradition handed down to him by his grandfather, Comba-Tai. Comba-Tai was taken from two words, Comba and Tai. Comba is taken from the French word Combattere which means to contend or struggle. Tai is taken from a Chinese word that means grand. Thus, Comba-Tai translates the grand struggle. While in South Central Las Angeles and while serving in the military from 1978 to 1984, Comba-Tai’s development was influenced by street fighting as it was influenced by various art forms of martial arts to include Kempo, capoera, Boxing, Judo, Kajukembo Kick Boxing, Arnis, takwondo and Iado/Kenjutsu. Later Comba-Tai was also influenced by Goju Sabudo-Kai Karate-Do. Comba-Tai is in fact the result of African and Asian influences; hence it is classified by the linguistic term, Afro-Asiatic. It is believed that Afro-Asiatic best conveys the idea of monogenesis. Since Afro-Asiatic language families exemplifies the human family’s common origin Comba-Tai was further defined by Dr.  Jones as the “Grand Struggle to Help All People.” Comba-Tai is an eclectic system forged on the streets of New Orleans, South Central Las Angeles, Texas and in the Pacific. The fires that forged Comba-Tai were street fights in gang land territories and amateur and professional competitions. The training is based on hours of thousands of drills and physical fitness routines that allow the warrior to move into the “Zone of Technical Ownership." This type of training is also believed to give the practitioners of Comba-Tai a sense of a heightened internal locus of control.  Completely own skills is important so that the students creativity flows with far greater success. In Comba-Tai when students are trained to the Zone of Technical Ownership, this level is called having the ability to use the S.T.A.R. principle, i.e. Strength, Timing, Agility and Resourcefulness.  It is said that Comba-Tai is not a martial art proper but a conceptual belief about mental, physical and spiritual warfare. Comba-Tai has a unique oral history that says it began when two Africans from the House of Shewa and Knights of the Order of Saint Anthony (http://www.geocities.com/studiowon/Images/Makonnen.jpg), escaped to America during the dynastic feuds in Ethiopia in a time called the “Era of the Princes” (1855), also called Zamana Masafent (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/f/fe/Tewdros.jpg). They ended up in a maroon in Jones County Mississippi (http://www.natchezbelle.org/ahgp-ms/jones/secession1.htm). American history tells us the maroons (especially in Laurel) were armed resistance movements of Africans, freedman, runaway slaves, fugitive abolitionist, Indians and eventually confederate deserters. In what is now called Laurel in the Piney woods of Mississippi, the maroons made up an inner state that came to be known as the “Free State of Jones.” (http://www.natchezbelle.org/ahgp-ms/jones/secession1.htm) While the Free State of Jones is often thought of as a legend, what we know is that these anarchic communities in Jones County formed a special core group, daring enough to raid plantations and were determined to fight for the freedom of their unique interracial community. Based on the oral transmission of Alonzo M. Jones grandfather, Jones was a direct descendent of this grand struggle. At the time, Comba-Tai was passed on to Jones by his grandfather, it was mostly wrestling, boxing, joint locks, throws, stick & knife fighting, and low kicks and sweeps. As Jones began to learn other forms of combat, he gradually combined high kicks, katas, complete ground grappling, and bladed weapons to his arsenal. While Comba-Tai was a strong fighting system, Jones taught that the strength of Comba-Tai was in its mental and spiritual insights. Certainly these insights were tempered by adversity experienced by a community of different races during the tumultuous antebellum and American civil war period. Today Comba-Tai has instructors from coast to coast and in 4 countries. The diffusion of schools resulted from Jones’ military students and subsequently their students who were stationed in areas around the globe. Dr. Jones says, “I began teaching Comba-Tai free of charge because I thought it was away to help youth see the greatness they had inside. To date, I have never charged for lessons because I believe my payoff would be a generation of warriors that would honor the American tradition of fighting/service for the freedom of all. The value of what I’ve passed on is best illustrated in the personal and professional accomplishments of my students in what is now called the World Combat Academy.”

The vision of Comba-Tai is to give every person, regardless of race creed or color, a positive image of their future through purpose, i.e., “To use the warrior greatness they have inside to be a blessing to everyone they meet.” This idea leaves no room for blaming someone else for your predicament in life, but it promotes the development of an entrepreneurial mentality. This tuff and determined philosophy breeds the notion, “If I cannot find a way, I will make one … I will not give up until I succeed.” Perhaps it should be said that Comba-Tai (The Grand Struggle) is an American tradition.

Comba-Tai is said to be the oldest martial art with an unbroken 6,000 year old lineage. Actually “6,000 years” was simply a theory that attempted to show the origin and evolution of martial arts in general and Comba-Tai in particular, as it related to the stories and teachings of Dr. S.A. Jones. As far as a 6,000 year old lineage is concerned, you can check at the end of a paper written by Dr. Jones http://www.blacfoundation.org/comba-tai.pdf. The principle figures here that he used to piece the Comba-Tai lineage is Menes (1st Dynasty Pharaoh), Piye (25th Dynasty Pharaoh) Ezana (King of Axum of Ethiopia) who he believed were indigenous Africans. He further sought to connect Comba-Tai lineage to the arrival of the Knights of Saint Anthony, Ras Yakob (James Marshal) and Bitwoded Gerogis Waran (George Warren), and their family that arrived in the America’s during the Ethiopian Dynastic wars (Zamana Masafent). The Knights of Saint Anthony are also known as the “Royal Order of the Sword and Shield.” Alonzo M. Jones was inducted into the “Order of the Sword and Shield,” at 16. Subsequently every, Combat Specialist/Knight of Comba-Tai has been inducted into this order after he/she is proven worthy through a grueling test that unveils his/her mental, physical and spiritual skills. It is true that much of Comba-Tai is based on Oral tradition and Dr. Jones own research using minimal resources (as mentioned in his paper), so to date there is no “dogmatic code of belief” on its ancient historic origins. Moreover, piecing oral tradition to, Gezirah el malik (the wrestling, boxing and weapons system taught to Jones by his grandfather) has proven difficult. The ancient history according to Jones demonstrates through “world warrior history” that all humans alive had a common origin and therefore should have a common goal of peace and good will to each other regardless of race. Currently, “The World Combat Academy,” is trying to employ additional researchers to help publish an accurate and complete account of the Comba-Tai history by the summer of 2007. However, Comba-Tai practitioners all agree that, “Our ancient history will never be as important as what we are doing now to help humanity.”

Arab immigration to Palestine in the 20th century
I have come across a claim that the increase in the Arab population of Palestine during the first half of the 20th century was largely due to immigration from neighboring Arab countries. However, I suspect that natural increase (excess of births over deaths) largely accounted for the increase in the Arab population. The claim that the Arab population of Palestine were largely immigrant has obvious implications for the legitimacy of the Palestinian Arab claim to a homeland in Palestine. Can anyone point me to sources on the demography of Palestine under the British mandate? Thank you for your help. Marco polo 21:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Have a look at this, Marco . The Arab population of Palestine was in absolute decline between 1914 to 1922, which might, I suppose, have been due to wartime conditions. Thereafter it began to increase.  The reasons for this are not identified, though the figures suggest something more than a simple excess of births over deaths.  The rate of increase for the Jewish population, in relative and absolute terms, was considerably greater.  Clio the Muse 00:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Law: my band releasing songs to public domain
So my band have collectively decided to release all songs on our next album to public domain. Is there a certain official legal statement that we have to put on the little paper insert, or can it just say "All songs are hereby released to public domain" (or something along those lines)? NIRVANA2764 21:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * How about the Creative Commons public domain dedication? —Keenan Pepper 21:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You should check out amiestreet.com. There you can post your music for free and the price gradually goes up from free depending on popularity. My friend's brother runs it, but it's also a kind of cool site for up-and-coming artists. Sorry for not answering your question at all. 07:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Is the killing of foriegn sitizens in a foreign country against their will an act of war?
If Russian KGB did for Alexander Litvinenko with the Polandium 210, then they killed a British sitizen, in Britain, against his will.

Is the killing of foriegn sitizens in a foreign country against their will an act of war?

And if so, will they nuke Ashby de la Zouch? Paul Silverman 21:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Um, how can you kill someone not against their will? :) Cbrown1023 21:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Armin Meiwes did. --Auximines 23:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I read an article about that last year. Cbrown1023 00:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Jack Kevorkian helped a few people kill themselves. Not exactly the same thing but similar.  <tt>Dismas</tt>|(talk) 01:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It can be considered one and can start wars. It is all about perception. Cbrown1023 21:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Read something about Euthanasia. It is not necessarily against the will of the person being killed.Mr.K. 22:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think Ashby-de-la-Zouch is safe, unless the Russians decide to rid the world of Skips, The Young Knives and Adrian Mole... in the event of nuclear, I'd be much more concerned about the inevitable fallout from the bombs hitting nearby Brum, Leicester and Coventry; Ashby is surrounded on all sides in that respect... La  ï  ka  22:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It was at one time, particularly during the high noon of imperialism, fairly common practice for western powers to use the death of their citizens-often missionaries-to intervene directly in the internal affairs of another nation. Nowadays it is very unlikely to be a casus belli, no matter what the circumstances. If it was there would be wars just about every other day. The British, incidentally, once went to war with Spain because a mad seaman claimed the Spanish coastguard had cut off his ear! See the War of Jenkins Ear. Clio the Muse 00:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Yvonne Fletcher was killed by a foreign government agent in UK against her will. The UK government DID NOT declare war. 202.168.50.40 02:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, the Spanish coast guard did cut off Jenkins' ear. Apparently Jenkins was insulting a custom's official. --The Dark Side 03:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Culture: What do Poor Canadians Eat?
Culture: What do Poor Canadians Eat, considering their nearest grocery store is Safeway?

Once they are tired of Macroni & Cheese and Mr. Noodles and Hungryman and Donuts?

I see many people eating sandwich but how do they make them?

Any suggestions, I am getting really fedup eating the same thing over and over? Subjective Comments are okay.

What did you eat for breakfast, lunch & supper today, yesterday, and the day before? --Judged 22:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a fallacy that junky packaged food is cheaper than healthy food. Buy some Heinz canned baked beans, some potatoes, and some cheap veggies. Cook up the beans with a bit of lemon juice, some garlic or garlic powder, some onion or onion powder, and other seasonings if you have them. Bake or steam the potatoes. Cook the veggies whatever way, depending on what they are (I recommend steamed brocolli or cauliflower). Serve the beans over the potatoes and veggies with a little butter, margarine or whatever if you like. Anchoress 22:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you Anchoress, but beans give me gas. How do you steam vegetables? And can you steam the veggies in the Microwave? Please reply. Thank you. --Judged 22:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You left out Timbits. But how hard is it to make a sandwich?  Two slices of bread and a slice of meat.  Maybe some mayonnaise or mustard, maybe a slice of lettuce.  Or instead of the meat, use peanut butter.  User:Zoe|(talk) 22:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * And I have been buying this prepared canned food, like Puritan Irish Stew, & Beef Stew. Some times I buy that "Chunky" cans, I can't remember the name but I can just buy those when its on sale (its expensive). I also buy this "No been only beef" cans cant remember the name again. But now I am so fed up with these cans but I need to be able to cook my food within 10 mins. --Judged 22:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Where exactly do you but the "slice of meat" in Safeway? Is it in the deli section?--Judged 22:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I have never eaten Timbits. But I bet they taste the same as donuts. --Judged 22:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Beans are really good for you and really cheap. If you eat enough of them you'll stop getting gas from them. You can cook veggies in the microwave. Clean them and cut them up into whatever size you like, bite sized maybe, try to make them similar sizes. Put them in a microwave safe container with a bit of water in the bottom. Put a lid on the container but DON'T SEAL IT, just leave the lid on loosely. Microwave for a minute at a time, stirring and testing the veggies after each time, until they're done to your taste. Replenish the water if it evaporates.


 * This is also a good way to cook frozen veggies, which BTW are a very good way to improve the flavour and healthfulness of such things as KD and Mr Noodles. Anchoress 22:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If you don't mind me asking Anchoress, don't you get fedup eating the same thing over and over? What do you eat when you are not eating veggies? --Judged 22:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * LOL. That's not the only thing I eat. But most of what I do eat requires a lot more effort and experience, and I didn't want to overwhelm you, because - no offence - you seem to be quite a cooking neophyte, and I find that it's impractical to help people eat healthfully and within a budget when the dishes are too challenging for them to prepare. If we were friends I could teach you a number of cheap, healthy meals, but it's just too tough over the internet. Also, I shop at a lot of better places than Safeway, and I didn't want to suggest things that would be outside your travel plans. But to answer your other question, I eat a lot of beans, veggies, and fruit. I eat a bit of dairy, some grains, and some soy products. And I live very, very cheaply. But it's quite a bit of work, possibly more work than you would be willing to do. Anchoress 22:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Depending on the size of your supermarket, a supermarket may have two different deli sections. One is a refrigerated section which holds pre-sliced luncheon meats, and one is a butcher's counter where the person behind the counter can slice off a requested amount of meat from a larger portion, and give you slices in the thicknesses you want.  As far as what sorts of meats are available, there are ham, beef, turkey, sausages such as salami, bologna, capicolla, etc.  And then there are different flavors, such as smoked ham, honey ham, brown sugar glazed ham, Italian roast beef, smoked turkey and chicken, etc.  You can usually find cheeses in the same sections.  User:Zoe|(talk) 22:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Poor Canadians, in my experience, tend to eat cheap, highly-processed, non-perishable things. Stuff that you could keep in your freezer for a year and not be the least bit worried about. Also: lots of cheap fast food, McDonald's, KFC, cheap pizza made with rubbery mozza and low-quality flour, that sort of stuff. I can't say there's anything like the level of starvation that has occured in African countries over the decade. In Canada, it's not a matter of not eating enough calories, it's a matter of eating low-quality calories. Vranak 00:56, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Surely you have Ramen up there. It's 5 for a dollar on this (the U.S.) side of the border.  <tt>Dismas</tt>|(talk) 01:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Rice is good with just about anything. Most people don't get bored of eating it everyday and it's a staple of many a diet. Of couse you need something on the side, but let rice be the main source of calories (carbohydrates). --The Dark Side 03:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Beans, rice, sausage, vegetables (different kinds), bread, fruit, eggs, ground beef/chicken/turkey, ect. Just go to Safeway, and buy anything under 2 American dollars (or it's Canadian equivalent), and you have loads of choices for dinner. | <b style="font-family:Papyrus; color:black;">A</b> ndonic <b style="font-family:Papyrus; color:Black; font-size:small;">O</b> <i style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Tan;">Talk</i> 11:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * See for US Dept of Agriculture menu suggestions. Canadians can probably survive on much the same food as US inhabitants. Many cities have stores owned by bakeries which sell short-dated bread and baked goods. They are the same as in the stores only not as fresh, and extremely cheap. Buy several loaves of bread and other baked goods (sweet roll, yum!) and freeze or refrigerate. No one needs a lot of meat (actually you don't need any.) Have toasted bread with generic jelly or generic cereal for breakfast, a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch. Buy a bag of potatos and a bag of rice, everything generic. Buy dried beans, they are cheaper than canned. Generic margerine is good, ditto cheese, or splurge and get Velveeta. Buy meat only when it is a loss leader, like $1.99 (US) pork chops or chicken, and freeze it to last until the next sale, or buy the cheaper chicken cuts like legs and thighs. Buy house brand canned vegetables or buy fresh cabbage. Don't buy soda pop or booze. Don't eat in restuarants or drink $3 mocha lattes. Don't buy from vending machines. $4 U.S per day is an ample food budget. Edison 15:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that dry beans are cheaper, but the original poster doesn't know how to steam vegetables, so I think asking her/him to cook beans from scratch and whomp up something tasty with them might be too big a task at first. Anchoress 23:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The basis of your premise is shaky. The closest grocery store is not Safeway (I don't recall ever seeing one in my area), but instead the National Grocers brands (Loblaws, Zehrs, No Frills, etc) and Sobeys.  Anyways, Canadians aren't aliens (except in the US immigration sense) so why specify Canadians specifically?  ColourBurst 17:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * If you read the rest of the thread, s/he's referring to him/herself. Anchoress 23:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

If the Safeway near you doesn't use a trash compacter, dumpster diving is the cheapest way to feed yourself. You'll probably have to buy some staples that rarely expire (and thus don't get chucked) but I've known people who have lived for a year on less than two hundred dollars. Paradoxically enough, the more upscale and expensive the grocery store, the better you'll be eating - they throw away everything but the most cosmetically perfect food. Lowerarchy 18:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Judged, I missed one line of your post and now I understand your question about the beans, lol. You asked what I had for breakfast/lunch/dinner? Well I live alone, so I tend to cook a large quantity of one thing and eat it for a while. For breakfast the past three days I had a banana, an apple, and two mandarins, plus a cup of yogourt. For dinner the past two days I've had farfalle (bow tie pasta} cooked with a heap of veggies (zucchini, leeks, mushrooms, garlic, carrots, tomatoes), olive oil and parmesan. I've been craving chocolate so I bought a box a couple of days ago that I've been snacking on (it's not very good). For three days now I've lunched on mangoes and fried egg sandwiches. The recipe I told you made me hungry so I made some mashed potatoes and baked beans to eat for dinner today. I'll take some Chinese noodles (not Ramen but like it from Malaysia) and cook them up with puffed tofu, gai lan or bok choi, carrots, onions and garlic, and season the whole thing with sesame oil, soy sauce and lots of chili sauce. To drink I have water, black coffee, herbal tea and sometimes chai masala for a treat. Next I'll either make homous (to have on toast with steamed veggies), or a big tomato, chick pea, onion and blue cheese salad. I have a bunch of containers of split pea with veggies soup in the freezer. Anchoress 00:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

You can steam in the microwave, sort of, by putting it in a container with a bit of water, covering it, and nuking it till it... steams. Not really suggested though. You can also nuke potatoes without the water. Sashafklein 07:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Buy a four pound chicken. Salt its skin. Pull the giblets out from the inside. Put some dried herbs on it if you want to convince yourself you're eating gourmet, and throw it in an oven at 475 farenheit for a bit above an hour. If parts of it are still uncooked, put it back in. You can test this by poking it. If the juices are clear, you can finally eat. Sashafklein 07:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Adam and Eve - Who misguided who?
202.91.109.6 22:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)There different views about misguidance of Adam and Eve. Could you please tell me who misguided who that resulted ouster of the both from the heaven202.91.109.6 22:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)–202.91.109.6 22:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)?

Talawat Bokhari
 * See the article on Adam and Eve. Rmhermen 23:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

In case your question is asked for misogynist or misandrist purposes, you can be relatively sure that a sage text like the Bible isn't going to contain anything massively sexist, like saying that Adam was responsible for Original Sin, or Eve was. That sort of simple answer to, 'why is there suffering in the world?' will not be gleaned readily from the Bible, or any other book (that I've read, at least). Vranak 00:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, poor old Eve has, on a point of interpretation, largely been made to carry the burden for 'seducing' Adam into disobedience. But since they both knew that eating the forbidden fruit was contrary to the command of God, I suppose they must be equally guilty.  It was merely a question of whom the serpent approached first.  Indeed, perhaps Adam is the more guilty, since of the two he had a longer acquaintance with the law.  Clio the Muse 01:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't work out well for Eve if she pleads ignorance: "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 Timothy 2:14) Eve, deceived, gets the blame and now needs a husband as master.EricR 03:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If I'm not mistaken, the Bible was written primarily by male scholars, no?


 * If so, it would be no great surprise if their interpretations tend to exonerate Adam while frowning upon Eve, yes? :) Vranak 17:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

According to this online bible, God said not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge before he created Eve.

2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Perhaps the Lord directly told her not to eat from the tree and she didn't believe Adam? The point remains however that she had some knowledge that the fruit from the tree was not to be eaten. --The Dark Side 03:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * There are 2 versions of the creation of woman. The first is in Genesis 1:27, preceding the command about the tree. There are various interpretations for why there is repetition of the story. A persuasive one is that the second is a detail-laden version, explaining the previous, where it would otherwise have interrupted the narrative flow of the days of creation. --Dweller 12:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Adam and Eve (males and females) were punished differently, but rather equally. Eve was punished with the pains of child-bearing, and Adam was punished in that he would from that point on be required to work the soil in order to maintain sustenance rather than simply be able to pick fruit off the trees in Eden. Both were punished rather harshly. I don't see any sexism involved at all. Loomis 04:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * They are both guilty in my opinion: Eve believed the serpent and disobeyed God, and Adam believed Eve and disobeyed God. They were really wanting to believe, otherwise, they wouldn't have done it. | <b style="font-family:Papyrus; color:black;">A</b> ndonic <b style="font-family:Papyrus; color:Black; font-size:small;">O</b> <i style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Tan;">Talk</i> 11:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

A classic rabbinic interpretation pins the origins of the sin on Eve's adding to God's decree. Compare "002:017 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." with "003:002 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 003:003 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Eve added the bit about touching the tree. The serpent knocked her into it and pointed out that she hadn't died. This being self-evident, she then believed the serpent that there was no problem with eating either. That said, Adam as an autonomous being is not devoid of blame and is therefore not exactly spared from punishment. It's fairly clear that the Bible regards God's view as being that both were guilty, in different ways of different sins, but in terms of who misguided who... Eve misguided herself. --Dweller 12:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

ww1 poet ..in the ****ing firth of forth
my husband has just told me of a program he heard on the radio a few weeks ago about world war two poets who emerged as a result of the 'usual' poets being in the trenches or dead even because of war. one poem had a lot of **** (fuck) in it and ended up ...... ' and we all ended up in the ****ing firth of forth. i wonder if anyone knows anything about it?? anneetc.


 * This is not by any of the war poets with which I am familiar! It sounds to me like lines from one of the many soldier's songs, much, much earthier than anything penned by Siegfried Sassoon or Wilfred Owen.  Clio the Muse 01:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)