Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2006 December 26

=December 26=

Sunken Ship
I read your shipwreck page and could not find a specific ship that I am looking for. I do not know the exact spelling of the ship but it sounds like Vardusi It was sailing from a place called Tanganica in Africa. My mother in law knew a lady that was one of the survivors and we were just trying to find some more information. Can someone help.


 * That place must have been Tanganyika, a former independent state that formed a union with Zanzibar and now is called Tanzania. The port could have been Dar-es-Salaam. Do you have any further information about the date, the destination and the location? Was this in the 30s of last century, or in the 80s? Was the ship sailing to Cairo or to Bombay? And so on. Vardusi is the name of a mountain in Greece, so it may have been a Greek ship, but Googling the name did not bring up any ships, sunk or otherwise. --Lambiam Talk  16:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The Lady who was one of the survivors died 15 years ago surname Hohbach & she was pregnant when she was rescued so she named her daughter Dusi after part of the ships name. They used to have reunions in Johannesburg. It was during world war 2.They were leaving Tanganyika to come to South Africa, That is all I know. But cannot find any information on it. --41.243.136.235 17:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)Louise


 * Sorry I can't be of much help but a possibility is that something that sounds like Vardusi is Firdawsi well ish. The name of a Persian poet is a fairly good name for a ship but something I read said that Firdawsi is also a Swahili word meaning paradise or beautiful garden. Unfortunately the poet's name is spelt many different ways and shipwrecks in WWII were all too common. Sorry. meltBanana  03:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Im just not sure of the spelling it could be Warduzi, vaartosea, vartusi - I just typed it the way it sounds when she pronounced it. Thanx anyway.

Hi. I think I found it. It was the Watussi (German Passenger ship) that was intercepted by the Royal Navy Battle Cruiser Renown on the 2nd December 1939. Now I just need information on the Survivors. Tx Louise 27.12.2006


 * Here we are...
 * The German passenger ship Watussi (9552 BRT) is intercepted in the South Atlantic about 50 nautical miles south of Cape Agulhas, South-Africa by the British battlecruiser HMS Renown and the British heavy cruiser HMS Sussex. However, before the German ship can be captured she is scuttled by her own crew.
 * ...a reconnaissance aircraft of the South African Air Force reported a ship south of the Cape of Good Hope. She was intercepted by the Sussex but her crew set her on fire. She proved to be the German liner Watussi, 9600 tons, and was sunk by gunfire from the Renown, her crew being picked up and taken to Simonstown by the Sussex.
 * ...One of our companions had intercepted the German liner Watussi; she was well alight when we arrived and it was decided to use one of B turrets guns to sink her. Imagine the delight of the engine-room crowd assembled on deck to watch the fun when B gun missed completely at close range, but managed to sink her after a couple of further shots; her survivors had previously been picked up by Sussex and taken on to Capetown.
 * So the survivors probably went to Capetown (Simonstown is a nearby naval base) sometime in December 1939. More detail than that is hard to find without digging up port records, and aftwerwards they'll probably have vanished into the South African population - which is where they were going anyway. I suppose there's a possibility some surviving documentation from the Sussex might have a list of names Shimgray | talk | 14:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The German survivors were interned in South Africa for the duration of the war.

use of pictures on the wikipedia-reference page ?
I tried use "insert picture gallery" above the subject/headline to add two pictures to ask you something about two pictures i have saved on my computer... but i didnt understand how to do it entirely... sp is it at all possible to add pictures to my questions here so you may see them ? i cant describe my question without showing you the two pics...

thank you


 * Don't add large image displays to Reference desk pages. Easiest and safest would be just to put them in a
 * -- AnonMoos 14:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * And you first have to upload them either to our Wikipedia or the Commons; see Help:Images. --Lambiam Talk  15:45, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Inequality?
If it is because we have different colours, different races, different talents and the most imprtantly 'varied intelligence' which in consequence leads one to earn more, to get richer than the other, and to live a life that other who living in the dire straits can only dream about, then why do we keep on repeating that human beings are the most developed of all the living beings even if it seems that they are the most unfortunate of all because of the brain that they have developed during the evolution which in turn and after some millions of year have rendered mankind one of the wretched ones: poor always finding it more difficult to solve the hand to mouth problem than a savage creature living in a wild state; and the richer ones never being able to have a secure and peaceful life; even after earning millions of dollar and properties which are generally claimed to satiate man's desire; which even a lion living in the jungle can have after killing and feeding on a deer? Then what all this is for?

Binod

Please contact me with at least specious answers —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.79.62.15 (talk • contribs).


 * Hmmm... I am trying to find a question hidden amongst all that prose.


 * No luck. I will simply say that I agree with your premise that man is the most wretched of all creatures, especially because of his giant brain. However, I'm confident that all our strife and suffering will be redeemed — just over the past year I would say that our collective consciousness has gotten a little more sensible and respectable. Cheers. Vranak


 * Been odd too, Binod. Been wondering why and whatfor. Still wondering why all the burden of proof is upon us human people. Ain't that fun ? -- DLL .. T 21:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry? What was your question again? 202.168.50.40 21:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Trying to look at it positively, billions of people manage to live their lives in peace and prosperity, what other large animals can make that claim ? Our pets, cats and dogs, are the only ones I can think of, and they only are so successful because of humans. StuRat 11:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Quality over quantity. Vranak

Binod, it is quite simple. Not only can people dream of more than they can possibly have, they can dream they have more than they ever received. Man is the prince of fools, but still a prince. What frog could dream of building a ship, or sinking a rainbow? One day, man may colonise Venus. Maybe a scotsman will bring rabbits there to hunt. DDB 09:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Why do Westerners use green color for positive and red color for negative in stock market?
... and also here at Wikipedia: Special:Recentchanges, Special:Watchlist

Here in China, we use red for positive and green for negative. I wonder why you use colors exactly in an opposite way. Any information about this topic at Wikipedia? Yao Ziyuan 18:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Probably the main reason is that, on a traffic light, green means "go" and red means "stop". More generally, green is a color associated with money, peace, and growth (of plants); whereas red is often used for warning signs and is associated with danger and violence (fire and blood).  For more references, see the articles Red and Green.  Marco polo 18:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * But here my understanding red is a warm color considered as positive and green is cold as negative. A Google search gives no useful information. Red and Green also says nothing on the cultural difference. I found this topic interesting. Another similar example might be Chinese number gestures, while Image:Chinesische.Zahl.Acht.jpg means two for you and eight for me. Yao Ziyuan 18:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, if you look through the articles on Red and Green, you will find sections on symbolism, including some of these cultural differences. Marco polo 18:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * In finance, "in the red" means losing money, so red is an obvious choice for "down." The opposite of "in the red" is "in the black," which is presumably why Yahoo used to show gaining stocks in black. For some reason, they recently switched from black to green. I suppose it's because of analogy with stoplights, as previously mentioned. It makes it more difficult for color-blind people. -- Mwalcoff 19:19, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "In the red" and "in the black" refer to the colors of ink used in calculating deficits and gains. It relies on the same color associations; it isn't the formation of them. --24.147.86.187 19:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I imagine "in the red" took on a whole new meaning when China was really communist. Clarityfiend 11:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no necessary reason that "red" and "green" (or black) be associated with gains or losses. In Western cultures the red/green traffic light has existed since the early 20th century. I don't know if that's the original source of the metaphors, though — "red" has associated with warnings for much longer than that, I am fairly sure, most likely due to its association with blood. Green makes for a very sharp contrast with red which is one of the reasons red/green pairings are quite common (Christmas colors, for example). My understanding of it is that traditionally in China, at least, red has numerous other associations, many of them positive (though according to our page on red, the connection with blood is there also common, which is not surprising). In the representations of gains/losses, I imagine there is no other reason than cultural convention, though it is interesting that both cultures would choose vivid contrasting colors to represent such things.
 * --24.147.86.187 19:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Railway signalling systems (semaphores) already used coloured lights at night much earlier, and the specific choice of colours for traffic lights may have been a copy of that. --Lambiam Talk  19:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Another instance of coded use of red and green is for channel buoys and identifying directions of ships and aircrafts. "Ships and aircraft carry a red light on the port side, and a green one on the starboard side." from starboard. I don't know wether there is a link between these different uses of red and green. Keria 22:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, a few points. First, the colors used by early railway signals were determined by what kinds of colored glass were available and because they had to work with the colored flame of an oil lamp. Early signals generally used red lights or white lights (i.e. clear glass) if the signal was to be just lit or unlit, and once it was realized that it was better to have a light all the time and just substitute a different color, the earliest code was red for stop/danger and white for clear. When it was realized that an intermediate color was needed for caution, green was used, as it was the only other suitable color available -- and I would think this last fact would also account for the use the same two colors in shipping, with aircraft then copying that.

Later as other lights became more common, white had to be replaced in railway signaling, so a suitable yellow glass was developed and introduced as the new caution color, green becoming the clear signal. These colors were then copied for traffic lights.

Until almost the end of the era when typewriters were widely used in business offices, they generally used a ribbon with two separate colored inked strips along it, so you could type in red or black by just shifting the ribbon height. From this it would seem to follow that there was at least some use in business of red as the alternative color to black. (However, the difference would not show up on a carbon copy or photocopy, so I don't think red can have been used all that much. Probably only in specific contexts when people would only have referred to the original document.)  I don't know if the use of red in typewriter ribbons is because this was again the easiest color to produce, and this led to a custom of usage, or if the custom came first and the two-color ribbons came later.

In any case, the common expressions are "in the black" to denote a profit and "in the red" to denote a loss, and there is a natural extension to stock market gains and declines. I guess the choice of red for these purposes must relate to its use to mean danger. The idea of using green as the opposite of red in this sense is new and unusual, as suggested above; however, red and green are two very strongly contrasting colors (for people who aren't color-blind) and are also opposed on traffic lights, so it's a natural choice as the opposite of red. Further, if you want to invest in a stock that is rising, the traffic-light interpretation gives the right guidance.

I note that in another context there is the expression "red-letter day" for a day when something important and good happens. Outside of the specific contexts, such as the business context we've been talking about, colors in writing don't generally have specific meanings.

The original poster referred to "warm colors". The term is used in Western countries mostly in connection with purely visual arts -- painting, architecture, interior decorating -- not in connection with presentation of text. People don't normally think or speak of text in red as "warm". This may be because the most common color of printed text is black, which is not considered either "cool" or "warm".

--Anonymous, December 27, 03:07 (UTC).


 * Bear in mind that red was traditionally the "second colour" for printing purposes; rubrication dates way way back. It was used for emphasis, for noting special details in print and in manuscript - indeed, "red-letter day" seems to comes from a practice of rubricating saints-days and the like in calendars. The use of red in printing, even before "colour printing", was probably the impetus to providing it for typewriters.
 * My theory is that its use in finance comes from the "negative" figures being the most important ones to be able to differentiate at a glance, and thus being emphasised in the traditional way. I don't know how early this practice was, though; if it postdated or predated the typewriter - anyone have a pre-1850 account book handy? Come to think of it, I don't even know when typewriters adopted two-tone ribbons... Anyway, this will have spread to general use of negative-red, and the use of positive-green - which would have to wait for widespread use of colour - will simply have been chosen for being "the obvious opposite" of red. I can't prove it without examples which I don't have handy, but it certainly looks plausible. Shimgray | talk | 13:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * And don't forget that red is still the color of emergency lights on fire and rescue vehicles in the West even though police vehicles have moved to blue. Adaptron 14:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Also keep in mind that in Western history, red was long the only color regularly used besides white and black. "Red" was synonymous with "color," which is why the Spanish named the red-earthed territory around the Rocky Mountains "Colorado." That's also why red was the traditional "second color" for printing. Red was probably used on old account sheets to emphasize negative amounts, leaving black for positive amounts. The use of green to mean "gaining" is probably a newer phenomenon, based on a metaphor with stoplights. -- Mwalcoff 01:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

During the Chinese communist regime, the Red Guard rebellion proposed switching the colors on the traffic lights so that red indicated "go" and green meant "stop". They sought to upgrade red's image, as it was improper for their namesake to carry such a negative connotation. sucdejan 11:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)