Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2006 September 17

Battle gestures
I read that Call of Duty 3 is going to include "battle gestures" for the Wii. Does anyone know what battle gestures are? I'm not looking for how they will be used in the game or anything. I just want to know what it's talking about.
 * I know a few hand gestures that could start a fight, but I doubt that's what they mean. Durova 01:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually that's pretty much how I would interpret 'battle gestures'. As threatening gestures designed to intimidate, provoke or possibly mislead the enemy. But maybe it means something else in the gaming world, like communicating, by means of maneuver, with other aircraft in a formation.---Sluzzelin 02:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to be they'll be equivalent to the radio calls in Counter-Strike, though coupled with some sort of body gesture. Stuff like holding your fist in the air to signal "silence" or "wait", or pointing to signal direction. I'm not sure how much such gestures were actually used by units in WW2, but you know, it's just a game. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  04:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

1947 UN Partition Plan


Why did the United Nations divide the land so strangely? Why is the Jewish part on the northeast not connected to the rest? Why did they designers not give all the northern half to one party and the southern half to another?

Please make the answer concise because this Israeli-Palestinian issue is lengthy and learning everything requires several PhDs.--Patchouli 07:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Short answer, they made majority Jewish areas into Israel and majority Muslim areas into Palestine. This type of division almost always makes for a mottled map. StuRat 08:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Flemish Region in Belgium.svg|100px|right]]

Exactly, you don't have to go to Israel to see such weird maps, it's the same with the Flemish region in Belgium... But I was wondering...suppose there was a Palestinian state one day, would it not be able to extend the West Bank a bit to allow a corridor? A tunnel or intersection (well guarded by armed forces of both nations) could make traffic for both countries goingEvilbu 11:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This is a big question in the negotiations (when there are negotiations). There's supposed to be a "safe passage" route between the two territories, but the Israelis are obviously concerned it would be used for infiltration of Israel. -- Mwalcoff 19:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Also because they wanted to go to israel fo a reason, because it was their homeland, and held on lot of the places which were holy to them, if they didnt have structures such as the Western wall within reach, the whole point of even making their country in israel would be pointless. They didnt just want land, they wanted their home back. Philc  TECI 15:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It should also be mentioned that the particular "partition plan" in question was something of a non-starter. The State of Israel was created in the midst of a war with all of its Arab neighbours. The plan was obviously rejected by all these states and so upon the "implementation" of this UN plan, all of Israel's neighbours attacked her. As a result of this "war", Israel's pre-1967 borders were established, and all the land that was designated for the Palestinians, was taken by Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (the West Bank and the Holy City of Jerusalem), with a few slivers being gained by Israel.


 * The "Palestinians" were then left with nothing. In 1964, the Palestine Liberation Organization was formed by Yasser Arafat. Why was it formed? To free Palestinian land from the Jordanians and the Egyptians? Apparently not, as all military/terrorist activity was dedicated towards Israel, not Jordan or Egypt. Why then? Obviously because the PLO wished to destroy Israel (as it declared in its national covenant). Of course three years later, Israel's Arab neighbours attacked (or at least had their armies mobilized along the border to attack) and lost both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to Israel. Now Arafat had a mission that the word could identify with! Free the Palestinian Territories that were taken from them! (Albeit 3 years after the PLO was established...apparently Arafat was something of a fortune teller!) And the rest, as they say, is history. Loomis 20:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I learned quite a bit from everyone here especially Loomis.--Patchouli 01:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What I still don't get is when the "State of Israel" declared "independence", what was it? Was it a formal declaration with explicit boundaries? Was there a plan to rule it democratically?  Note that the nation of Israel also took ground after the Arab Israeli war that was not assigned to them (like southeast of the Gazastrip)  by the UN partition plan?  I find it hard to believe someone like David Ben-Gurion would declare the state of Israel to be modern-day Israel+West Bank+Gaza strip, AND plan to let it be ruled democratically without expelling anyone, because the country and its rule wouldn't have a Jewish character at all then???Evilbu 16:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Partitions were all the rage in the post-war world. Most of them were ill thought-through and the geography didn't help make a peaceful resolution. That 1947 map was pretty odd, but perhaps more peculiar were some of the divisions along notional straight lines, which paid no attention whatsoever to demographics or natural geographic features like rivers etc. --Dweller 06:59, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Peculiar, but not unusual. Pretty much every country has at least some of those borders, and some have nothing but. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 16:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

free legal advice from a city council about the council
Hi

I have encountered an anomily

I have asked my councils legal department a question which they refuse to answer

the question is -

is it legal to paint double yellow lines on a road, then fine motorists for parking there for 25 years,  without the necessary 'Prohibition Of Parking Order' being signed,  thus being enacted.

I stumbled on the relevant paperwork whilst researching documents after getting a parking ticket (which was cancelled)

I have been informed by the councils legal department 'The sevice cannot and does not provide legal advice or opinion to individual members of the public'  (The 'service' being the councils legal department)

I have two points

a) is a council tax payer not a stakeholder in the city council, thus entitled to its resources b) why is it possible that the department responsible for advising the council on legal matters refuse to answer a simple straightforward question entirely pertinant to their department.

best regards

amr

P.S. yes,  cardiff council P.P.S. many tnx for the replies


 * Hi amr. I assume you're asking re: the UK from the terminology you use, but it helps if you specify. a) No. The council's legal department exists to advise the council and its officers. You are entitled to the resources of the Citizen's Advice Bureaux and the Legal Services Commission for legal advice (if eligible), or to engage your own legal representation. b) Because it's not their job, and providing advice to yourself and the council officers involved would be a conflict of interest.


 * If the ticket was cancelled why do you still need legal advice? Natgoo 08:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I suspect they know they are in the wrong, and will have to pay back 25 years worth of traffic fines if caught, so don't want to admit to their own incompetence. Likely they will just cancel any tickets of anyone who complains, therefore denying them legal standing (since they were not "harmed") to challenge the council in court. StuRat 10:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

PS: Always list your location for legal questions. StuRat 10:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

If you follow your argument to its logical conclusion, you could demand the council's cleansing department to clean your house!

Seriously though, you could possibly pursue a Judicial Review, but be prepared for a long, hard and expensive fight (and you might not get locus standi in the first place]]. ColinFine 11:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * English councils frequently bend the law. I have a book by the great Patrick Moore written under the pen name R. T. Fishall (geddit?) called 'Bureaucrats - how to annoy them' - you might be able to get a copy at Amazon, heartening stuff. But if I was you I'd make them jump through every one of their own stupid little hoops. You don't need to take any formal legal steps, just bombard them with a stream of letters quoting arcane laws, ask for replies to letters you didn't actually write, misquote them (plausibly) in the local press, have fun! Rentwa 18:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Holocaust
i know this may be an odd question but i dont know where else to start. Are there any lists of names of the victims of the Holocaust or was everything destoyed by the Nazis when the camps were emptied and the death marches were started? Thank you RT


 * I don't really know anything about the subject, but I doubt they asked them to sign in for executions, so I would have doubt if any records ever existed. Philc  TECI 15:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Apparently there was a list of approximately 3 million names as of 1999. See the last article on this page.--Fuhghettaboutit 15:42, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, the Nazis were perversely meticulous about the whole thing. The trials at Nuremburg proceeded rather easily because the Germans wrote down practically everything. Although I wouldn't know exactly where to find these records, I'm sure they do exist. I'd imagine one of the leading Holocaust museums would be a good place to start. Loomis 16:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, I was previously under the impression that the 'Final Solution' was a relatively rushed operation after various other projects failed including slave labour and ghettos, and that any records had been compiled based on evidence after the war. But apparently not. Though the link given is to a list compiled recently, I don't know wether the information obtaiened is from soome sort of Nazi database or something. Philc  TECI 20:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

IBM sold lots of cards, cardpunches, and tabulating machines to Nazi Germany, in addition to which the Germans were pretty meticulous record keepers. Certainly there were record losses due to Nazis destroying evidence, allied bombing,and the general chaos of the end of the war.Edison 20:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, we seem to be looking exclusively to the Germans for this information. Once again, a leading Holocaust Museum, such as the ones situated in Israel or Washington (as well as those situated in Germany) would surely have the most comprehensive of data. Loomis 20:14, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I feel it is important to be clear about what a "victim" of the Holocaust is when asking questions like this. For example, there are Jews here (Charleston, SC) who claim to be "victims" because they know someone who knew someone who knew someone... that might have died in Germany at the time. --Kainaw (talk) 21:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I seriously doubt that is the case. The term "Holocaust victim" has always refered to those killed. Those who survived are known as "Holocaust survivors." -- Mwalcoff 21:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Meticulous records were kept in some, but not all, cases. Those sent to death camps, but not killed immediately, were tattooed on the forearm with identification numbers, and files were kept on each until they were murdered. In areas on the fringes of Nazi control, however, such as the Ukraine, Jews were just murdered as soon as they were found, and records were spotty at best. StuRat 02:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

One of the synagogues which now forms part of the Prague Jewish Museum has the names, birthdate and deportation date of all Czech Jews who were deported painted on the walls. This was first done fairly shortly after the war, then it was painted over after the 1967 Middle East war and only restored after the fall of Communism. -- Arwel (talk) 10:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I assume the overpainting was done by the communists, who were anti-Jewish by that time ? StuRat 10:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup. Czechoslovakia was the first state to recognise the existence of the State of Israel, and Skoda arms played quite a part in the War of Independence. This was, of course, about 8 months before "Glorious February" (1948) when the Communists took over, and by 1967 relations were not so warm. -- Arwel (talk) 18:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help guys RT


 * The Yad Vashem has a Hall of Names, but our article doesn't say how many names it has. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:48, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The amalgamation of the Picts and the Scots
This is a plea from a high school pupil taking advanced higher history this year, the topic of study being Northern Britain from the Romans to AD 1000. I'm writing my first ever disertation titled: "Why were the Scots able to emmerge as the dominant people of Northern Britain by 1000AD?" The problem is I'm finding it really hard to come at such a new topic and research names and places entirely meaningless to me. Research is proving useless with no foundation of understanding and I'm hoping that somebody out there could please help. Obviously I'm not asking you to do my research for me but I would be incredibly grateful if somebody who is knowledgable of this topic could give me a synopsis of the amalgamation of the Picts and Scots. I think that if you could give me a basic understanding of this then I will be able to continue my own research with a far better understanding. Thank you for taking the time to read this. A reply would be much appreciated. Please save me from drowning in this bog of history!


 * I should start with Dal Riata. ColinFine 18:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * ...then continue with our articles on Picts and Scots. StuRat 02:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Vasco Da Gama - The Portugese Explorer
Could I know what were the social factors(mentality of the portugese people) that led to Vasco Da Gama to be able to become the first person to sail directly from Europe to India? Thanks.


 * What reason do you have to believe it was a specifically Portuguese trait? Ferdinand Magellan was also Portuguese, but Christopher Columbus and John Cabot were Italian. ColinFine 18:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I would say it was more of historical factors that gave Portugal a brief lead in the Age of Exploration. Spain was held back by fighting with the Moors, who had occupied Spain.  England was held back by constant wars with France and others.  This left Portugal in the lead, at least until Spain, and then England, got their acts together. StuRat 02:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * And their navigation schools were the best in the world. The other nations had to catch up before they could rival the Portuguese. Jameswilson 00:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Portugal was also in a tight corner. It could not expand into the Iberian peninsula because of Spain and as such had to turn to the seas. At the beginning the Portuguese conquered some cities in the north of Africa (with heavy oposition by the kingdom of Morroco) and discovered Madeira and the Acores. They tried to discover the gold mines inside Africa and then they simpy continued along the coast of Africa. As for the mentality traits I suppose poverty at home, greed for riches, ambitions for glory, plain old guts, arrogance, and curiosity were in my personal opinion the most important ones. Flamarande 22:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds like somebody got a homework assignment they didn't understand ;)  Viva  La   V  i  e   Boheme! 

Japanese Embassy during WWII
What happened to the Japanese embassy in Washington following the attack on Pearl Harbor? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.139.254 (talk • contribs) 15:27, 17 September 2006


 * Well, the embassy was still staffed as of the morning of the attack. I assume that the Japanese personnel were deported immediately, and that the same happened to the American staff in Tokyo shortly afterwards, due to some form or another of diplomatic immunity. After all, if the Japanese embassy staff was arrested, then Imperial Japan could be expected to do the same to Americans in Tokyo. If both sides arrested the "enemy" diplomats, as opposed to exchanging them, then there would just be more prisoners of war to deal with, and those can be such a pain. (See The Great Escape) Picaroon9288 18:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for responding. I also assume that the rules diplomatic immunity were followed. I am looking to find some details. When was the ambassador notified of his expulsion? When and how did he leave the country? To what destination? Was the entire ebassy staff expelled? During WWII was the embassy building maintained by a Japanese custodial staff? seized by the US? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.139.254 (talk • contribs) 19:23, 17 September 2006


 * Well, see the article on Saburo_Kurusu, who was at the embassy at the time. He was interned until 1942, when he was released, at which point the war was still going on. Also, there is Kichisaburo Nomura, who survived until 1964, so neither died during the fighting. But I expect this is as much information as will be found on Wikipedia. Hope this helped. Picaroon9288 20:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

(resetting the margin for a long reply) “Burning of papers watched by 1,000” New York Times, Dec. 8, 1941, pg. 5: The embassy staff in Washington burned official records and papers in the side yard of the embassy on Dec. 7 after a stormy meeting with Sec. Of State Hull. An orderly crowd watched. Admiral Kichiburo Nomura, the Ambassador. Nomura and staff needed to obtain passports before leaving. They planned to fly to San Francisco on their way. U>S> Ambassador Joseph C. McGrew in Tokyo and his staff would also return here. The Embassy was in Northwest Washington DC on Massachusetts Avenue. Immediately after the Pearl Harbor attack, the U.S. government undertook to protect Japanese Embassy personnel, and the property of the embassy, and consular staff. A Jan 4, 1942 article said the Embassy was at 2514 Massachusetts Avenue.

Another article Dec. 10 said the personnel were restricted to the Embassy, but could send someone out to buy food.

An article Dec. 30 said Ambassador Nomura and Peace Envoy Saboru Kurusu were sent by train to “The Homestead,” Hot Springs, VA, along with Japanese reporters for internment until arrangements for their return to Japan were complete. There were about 100 altogether. They were to be interned until U.S. personnel were outside territory controlled by the Japanese. The Spanish Embassy took over the handling of Japanese affairs in the U.S. The German diplomats and were interned at White Sulphur Springs, West Virginia. The Swiss Embassy took over German affairs. The U.S did not trust Japan to abide by the customs of civilized nations, given the attack on Pearl Harbor prior to a declaration of war.

A Jan 4, 1942 article said the Germans and Italians were at The Greenbriar, (This later became a top-secret underground nuclear attack hideout for key U.S government officials during the Cold War.)

“Nomura and 1,096 sail on Gripsholm” NY Times, June 19, 1942, p. 5. The sailed on a chartered Swedish ship, when US personnel from Japan and China departed. It would steam to Portuguese East Africa and pick up 1500 Americans taken there from the Far East to bring them back. There would be a swap supervised by the Portuguese. The ships would be under safe conduct from the belligerent nations, and would have neutral Swiss and Spanish officials on board..

The Japanese arrived in Japan August 20, 1942, per an Aug. 21 article.

The Americans sailed on an Italian and a Japanese liner on June 17 from Tokyo. The Gripsholm arrived with the American in New York August 25, after a stopover in Rio. Some US newspapermen had been imprisoned, beaten, held in unheated cells, tried, convicted and sentenced for acting against the interests of Japan with their stories, before being exchanged, per an Aug 15, 1942 article.

Per an article “Tokyo renovates embassy”, NY Times, March 30, 1952, p E7, the Japanese Embassy in Washington was apparently preserved and left empty during the war, then used after the war by the Far East Commission, which oversaw occupied Japan, until the peace treaty went fully into effect in 1952, when the Japanese renovated the building and resumed using it as an embassy. Edison 21:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much


 * If both sides had been willing, leaving the embassies functioning would have been a good idea. This would allow for prisoner exchanges, notification of casualties and prisoners taken, and eventually peace treaty negotiations.  Of course, the embassies would need to be surrounded by troops to prevent the staff from performing espionage and prevent the native population from attacking embassy officials and workers. StuRat 01:59, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

A functioning embassy would have the use of unsearched diplomatic pouches, and could be a "nest of spies" as the Iranians termed the US Embassy in Tehran in 1979. The Soviet Embassy in Washington DC bristled with antennas for intercepting radio and phone communications in Washington during the Cold War. Today, a belligerant could send in a nuke in a diplomatic pouch. Every embassy of a major power is expected to have spies credentialled as military liasons. It is the custom, instead, to have a neutral country represent the interests of belligerants.Edison 16:46, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

NFL superbowl
Did any NFL team with a dome ever win the superbowl? Thank you for any answers you have.18:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If you aren't too lazy, you can look at the article Super Bowl and see a list of teams that have won. Then, though I'm sure you may find it a strain, you can click on the team name to see that team's article.  In the article, such as St. Louis Rams, there is an infobox that provides a link the team's stadium article (Edward Jones Dome for the Rams).  Click on that - I know, you are burning too many calories at this point - and you can see if the stadium is a dome. --Kainaw (talk) 19:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

How many Dutchspeaking prime ministers of Belgium have there been, and who was the first?
Hello,

I am calling upon Belgians here (I know there are quite a few (Dutchspeaking) Belgians around here) but everyone's help is welcome.

I adressed this matter on the Dutch wikipedia too but without a completely satisfactory answer (up until now).

(Please don't delete my question, I think that there are quite a few well-informed Belgians who hang out almost exclusively on the English Wikipedia!)

I am asking not only out of personal interest, but also because it might help me to do something about articles like List of Prime Ministers of Belgium.

1. Who was the first Dutchspeaking prime minister of Belgium? By Dutchspeaking I don't mean that he was able to speak Dutch, I mean : that was his native, the language in which he was raised.(I can write "he"...)

2. Is there any list available on the net, listing these prime ministers with their own language next to their name?

I am asking this because I would like to understand political transformations in Belgium a bit better. Be warned that "he has studied in Leuven" or "he was born in Ghent" does not guarantee that his native language was Dutch.

Thank you very much,Evilbu 18:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Why do I get the impression that users of the Dutchspeaking Wikipedia rule with an iron fist by the way this question has been asked? Don't worry, we're not going to delete your (completely reasonable) question. I'm afraid that I don't know the answer to your question, but it might help in your searches if you realize that "Dutchspeaking" is spelled as two words (usually like "Dutch-speaking") in proper English : ).  freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  07:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh I did get some help, the main problem is that there simply aren't enough people hanging around.... that said, their equivalent of a "reference desk" contains pages and pages of discussions about blocks. Thanks for the tip.Evilbu 10:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

demercurise or mirror etching.
can mirror be etched without affecting the thickness of glass?

By the very nature of etching, the glass is eaten away at the place where it is etched into. Therefore, the thickness of the glass is inerently changed. --AstoVidatu 19:42, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Embossing could help keeping the thickness, if it was of common practise on glass. --193.56.241.75 14:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Or extrusion. But what about "de mercurize" ? -- DLL .. T 18:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you proposing an alternative spelling? I think "demercurise" is better.  At the very least, "de mercurize" needs a hyphen.  JackofOz 02:23, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * While normally demure, I must demur to your attempt to change the spelling. :-) StuRat 13:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)