Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 April 12

= April 12 =

Northern Alliance
In Afghanistan, why they call the group Northen Alliance? Is it because they were formed in northen part of Afghanistan?


 * Yup. The United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan or Northern Alliance controlled provinces in the north, most of them in the north-east from what I can see in the article. Clarityfiend 03:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

They were a group run by General Masood and fought the Taliban. The Taliban had taken over all of Afghanisatan except for one area in the north east that was easy to defend because of the terrain. The Northern alliance were dug in there and probably would have been overun by the Taliban....until sept 11 happenned, and all of a sudden the US military came along to give them a hand! Deathlibrarian 13:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Classical music advice
Hello

Never having been really into classical music, I just stumbled upon Beehtoven's The Tempest. I find it absolutely amazing in terms of its sheer emotional power. I was just wondering if anyone could recommend anything of similar drama and sheer force in the classicacl piano realm?

65.94.231.58 03:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If you want sheer emotional power you might like Richard Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen (The Ring of the Nibelung), although I find it a bit much, myself (picture fat German women belting out songs in Viking horns and metal conical breastplates). StuRat 04:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh. A piano transcription of the Ring really would be something.  Even Franz Liszt didn't attempt that (although he did make 15 transcriptions of bits and pieces of Wagner, including Valhalla from the Ring, and the Liebestod from Tristan und Isolde). As for original piano music, Beethoven is a great starting point.  Many of his sonatas (particularly the later ones, written when he was totally deaf!), have amazing amounts of drama and emotional power.  Try listening to the Hammerklavier, or the Appassionata (very appropriately named).  Two earlier Beethoven works: The Moonlight Sonata starts out quietly, but the 3rd movement finale is full of tempest.  Then there's the Pathetique Sonata, particularly the 1st movement.  So many to choose from.  I mentioned Liszt - his Sonata in B minor is an epic and very dramatic work.  As is Funérailles, a tribute to three of his Hungarian countrymen who died in war.  Many of Rachmaninoff's pieces are fiery or martial - listen to the Prelude in G minor, Op. 23, No. 5.  Many of Chopin's polonaises contain patriotic and emotional music - such as the Military Polonaise in A major, Op. 40, No 1; the Polonaise in F sharp minor, Op. 44; and the Heroic Polonaise in A flat major, Op.53.  This is the tip of the iceberg, but it's somewhere to start.  Enjoy.  JackofOz 04:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Oops, I missed the word "piano". StuRat 05:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Good question. Jack has some excellent suggestions, which I will second:  if you liked Beethoven's "Tempest" sonata, you will probably enjoy the Liszt B Minor Sonata.  Give Franz Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy a listen too, the Chopin etudes and ballades, Schumann's Carnival.  Just for a start.  :)  Antandrus  (talk) 04:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It depends what mood you're in. Baroque music tend to be more rigid in structure, early Classical music tends to be calm and controlled, late Classical and Romantic is often dramatic or plain beautiful, Contemporary has some good bits and pieces, and Avant-Garde is just crap.  bibliomaniac 1  5  05:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi 65, i was once like yourself, not really 'into' classical music, the best way to find what you like is to buy/download a compilation of classical music, from various composers/artists/genres and see wot tickles your fancy (so to speak) here in scotland i bought CD's like 'the best  classical music album ever! No. 3' (sic) or second hand, poor quality recordings made by unknown artists - this second option lets you 'taste' cheaply before committing your finances to a better quality, well know artist version, and trust me it is worth getting a 'good' recording by a respected artist enjoy!! Perry-mankster 08:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I just heard the third movement of the Moonlight Sonata and it is truly amazing. You only ever hear the first movement, but its incredible! Thanks for the advice Cacofonie 14:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC) (65 above)
 * You're welcome. Beethoven did of course write it as a whole sonata, not just the first movement, so it's good to hear the whole thing as he conceived it.  JackofOz 04:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

In a similar vein to Liszt, Alkan's Concerto for Solo Piano (op. 39, 8-10) is really gripping and powerful, but it may be a bit hard to track down a recording since it is so rarely performed due to the difficulty of playing it, but if you get a recording by Mark Latimer (preferable) or Marc-Andre Hamelin (also v. good but not quite up there with Latimer) you won't be disappointed. --194.176.105.39 14:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * (That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say they prefer someone else to Hamelin.) Stephanie McCallum has made a great recording of the Alkan concerto too - the first studio recording (1990). JackofOz 04:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it may just be a case of getting to know the Latimer recording first and my brain subconsciously remembering that as the 'correct' version and not giving Hamelin a chance. Latimer just seems more unhinged to me, a quality I like to hear in Alkan. --81.111.18.84 15:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Small companies and Credit Ratings?
Say I start a small company, (incorporated in Canada), is it possible to get a credit rating for that? I know of Transunion which provide credit ratings for individuals, but what about corporations? --Shines8 06:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It might have something to do with a DUNS (Data Universal Numbering System) number. I was looking this up the other day because some of our customer data here at work is organized by DUNS number.  A quick look at this other page at the D&B site says a few things about checking business credit reports and updating your business credit file.  I'm not 100% sure if D&B is the way to go, though, but at least check them out.  The article Dun & Bradstreet might also help. --Elkman (Elkspeak) 16:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Credit ratings are based off of credit history. A new company has no credit history.  If you need money for a small business (and don't personally have any) you need to walk into a bank and apply for a "small business" or "new business" loan.  You generally have to use your personal credit history to secure these loans. --JayHenry 16:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --Shines8 02:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Restlessness
Please, what is the psychological name for the condition known as restlessness? Where can I go to read more deeply into the study of the lives of people who are driven on by frantic energy in everything they do, and loathe to be confined? - Melancholy Danish —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.13.4.44 (talk) 07:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC).


 * It sounds to me a bit like Hyperactivity. But people driven by frantic energy might also be suffering from Bipolar disorder, sometimes known as manic depression.  There are a number of prominent people in history who suffered from the latter condition, including Winston Churchill, the British war-time Prime Minister.  Clio the Muse 07:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Clio :-)


 * No probs. If you would like to know more about people who are thought to have suffered from bipolarity here is a fairly detailed list.  There are some surprising names, and it might even be concluded that this condition-awful as it is-can, in some unique cases, lead to forms of greatness.  Clio the Muse 07:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Melancholy, further to clio's answer, certain tourette syndrome sufferers, describe their mind / 'thoughts ' as having to much "energy" and this expresses it's self as the tics/body movements and other obsessive behaviour associated with tourettes Perry-mankster 08:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * In regards to specific literature I highly reccommend Touched with Fire by Kay R. Jamison. It's a very interesting and accessible read and would seem to fit perfectly your desire to delve into the whirlwind lives of person's so driven.-- 38.112.225.84 09:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It sounds like mania in general, and hypomania can come from a number of causes, from hyperthyroidism to narcotics withdrawal, but there is also simply willful restlessness, either of the wanderlust sort or the Romantic sort. After all, both the cowboy and the Bohemian might claim to be endlessly restless, and yet they share nothing else.  Utgard Loki 12:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * For the condition of restlessness in the sense of being unable to sit still, see Akathisia. People suffering from that condition don't typically accomplish much, so this is presumably not what you are talking about. Another form of restlessness that does not lead to accomplishments is Adult attention-deficit disorder. I have heard the term "cabin fever" applied metaphorically to someone who could not stand being confined by rules – and therefore migrated to another, supposedly freer country, sadly enough only to find out that they were even more bureaucratic fixation on rules. See also Zugunruhe. I also know some individuals who seem to have an inexhaustible source of energy in (typically successfully) undertaking things, but have to switch to something else when the current undertaking threatens to become routine; they constantly need new challenges in order to function. Does that come closer to what you had in mind? I don't know a name for this "condition" though – which is not all bad, I guess. --Lambiam Talk  19:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Literary Interconnectedness
In one of the Sherlock Holmes stories, Sherlock asks Watson to imagine himself flying over London, overlooking all of the houses, and discovering all the ways in which the lives of the people within them interconnect and work themselves according to a marvelous providence.

In "Moby-Dick," chapter 110, Herman Melville says, "Whatever is truly wondrous or fearful in man, never yet was put into words or books."

I'm looking for literary works that deal with this interconnectedness, and with the marvelous providential design of life. The closest I've been able to find is the works of Dickens and the tales of the Arabian Nights. Thank you for any recommendations you might have.


 * Have a look at Labyrinths by Jorge Luis Borges, in my estimation one of the greatest writers of the last century, and arguably the best Argentinian writer of all time. His marvellous little 'fictions' explore all sorts of hidden patterns, and forms of interconnection; but I would particularly recommend, The Garden of Forking Paths and Three Versions of Judas. The latter has a surprising and unexpected conclusion about the nature and the person of the Saviour.  You should also consider looking at some of Borges' other work, including The Book of Sand and Dr. Brodie's Report.  Clio the Muse 07:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The Bridge of San Luis Rey takes up a similar theme.--Wetman 09:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This theme is found throughout transcendentalism, as well as some of the deist authors, but it is also sometimes expressed as a facet of the Great Chain of Being (the principle of divine plenitude). Inasmuch as Jesus said, "Not a sparrow falls" without God's knowledge, some authors have taken all mankind as a symphony of providence.  Also, see Geoffrey Hill's Mercian Hymns, where he attempts to strike a universalist stance: "I have learned not to look down upon the damned, whose actions harmonize with the blessed" or something like that.  (He works the same theme of interconnectedness of salvation and damnation, living/dead in "September.")  William Carlos Williams's "Red Wheelbarrow," to take a cliched example, attempts to portray the entire cosmos as an interconnected piece, where all elements are equally important.  Utgard Loki 12:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The character Dirk Gently in Douglas Adams's series of books talks of "the fundamental interconnectedness of all things". JackofOz 12:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you more interested in books that have meta-discussions about interconnectedness, or books that demonstrate interconnectedness in their actual story? Anchoress 12:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

And if you want to branch into song lyrics, there's always Synchronicity (album), by The Police. StuRat 16:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

And if you want to get scientific, although it doens't sound like you do, there is this. Recury 20:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell's graphic novel From Hell deals with interconnectedness quite a lot (although it's all left out in the film). --Nicknack009 15:22, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The muslim conquests
I need some help on a history project about the muslim conquests. My questions are the following:(any help will be greatly appreciated, thanks, 89.137.211.247 12:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC))
 * Who was their first leader besides Muhammad?
 * How did the conquests start?
 * Could the califates be seen as descendents of the roman empire?


 * If you type Muslim conquests in the Search box and click on Go, the article contains:
 * Answer to your first question in opening paragraph
 * A link to the first conquest (that explains how it started) in the first section
 * The last question is a matter of opinion. After reading the article, you should be able to form your own. --Kainaw (talk) 13:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello and welcome. The first thing you should hold in mind is that Muhammed is unique, both in religious and political terms, and has no parallel in the Muslim world. He had followers and lieutenants; but it is only after his death that the struggle for leadership eventually causes a split between those who supported his son-in-law, Ali, known as the Shiites, and the majority who took the lead of Abu Bakr-the first Caliph-,who were to be known as the Sunni. The Arab conquests started with the victory over the forces of the Eastern Roman, or Byzantine Empire, at the Battle of Yarmouk in 636, which opened up the Middle East and Egypt to penetration by Islamic armies. The Caliphates were certainly imperial in structure, but they had a religious purpose and direction, which was never part, in any fundamental sense, of the Roman Empire. Clio the Muse 13:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your help. 89.137.211.247 13:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Longest serving Canadian Senator?
Willie Adams, according to the article, is the second longest serving senator. Who's the longest? I can't find anyone appointed to Senate before 1977, just someone appointed in 1979, and tons after. Any ideas? Or is this out of date information, and he is now the longest serving Canadian Senator? -- Zanimum 12:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you mean the longest-serving senator who is still in the Senate, or the longest-serving Senator ever? If the former, it does appear to be Senator Adams (who is heading for a career of over 32 years if he serves until mandatory retirement). You may have seen it already, but the Parliament of Canada site has a list of all current senators, including the date of their appointment and the date on which they should retire. (By that list, Senator Adams will eventually be passed by Senator Charlie Watt, who will be there for over 35 years if he serves a full term).


 * If you want longest-serving ever, that is a harder question. The Parliament site lets me search Senators based on years of service, but it includes terms in the House of Commons in the calculation so the results are misleading. But I would guess that there is at least one Senator who was appointed before a mandatory retirement age was added who served longer than Senator Adams' current 30 years. It will just take a bit more digging to find him. - Eron Talk 15:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * And here's one already: Senator The Hon. Hippolyte Montplaisir, appointed to the Senate on February 9, 1891, and served until his death on June 20, 1927, for a term of over 36 years. - Eron Talk 15:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That didn't take as long as I expected. The winner and still champion is Senator the Honorable Pascal Poirier, appointed March 9, 1885, serving until his death on September 25, 1933, for a total of 48 years, 6 months, 17 days in the Senate. That record will probably never be surpassed, as all Senators must now retire at age 75 - meaning that one would now have to earn appointment at the tender age of 26 to have a shot at the record. - Eron Talk 16:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * And that would require a constitutional amendment. The minimum age of 30 established in the BNA Act is still in place, so the maximum time anyone can be a senator is now 45 years. --Anonymous, April 13, 2007, 00:43 (UTC).


 * Well, that means there are at least two Senators taht served longer, so Adams can not be #2. -Czmtzc 17:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No, he's not. He's the longest-serving Senator of those currently serving, though. I've updated his article to reflect that. - Eron Talk 17:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Vonnegut question
what's the vonnegut book where the culmination is the narrator instructing the reader to count the number of stick figures inside the book's front and back covers to learn how many people he killed in war and how many women he slept with? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fishyflesh (talk • contribs) 12:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Celtic short Sword
When did the Celtic long sword start to shorten and what was the cause of this transformation. The Romans certainly have used the shorten version I.E. The Gladius.

Mr. Shane Shea —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.93.161.125 (talk) 18:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Hi, Shane. From your name I assume that you are either Irish, or of Irish origin, and on that basis your question is specifically related to the development of warfare in Ireland, rather than the Celtic world as a whole?  However, the information I have, from my study of seventeenth century history, is related to the use and development of sword fighting techniques in Scotland, though I think this probably has some more general application.  Anyway, the Celtic long-sword, better known as the claymore, was the weapon of choice from roughly the early fourteenth century to the end of the seventeenth.  Though still in use in the early 1700s it began to be replaced by the single-handed, basket-hilted broadsword, sometimes erroneously referred to as a claymore.  The reason for the change was simple enough: the development of firearms rendered formations made up of men wielding two-handed swords highly vulnerable.  In response, Gaelic soldiers began themselves to make increasing use of muskets in combination with the broadsword and a small shield, known as a targe, and a dagger, known as a dirk.  These weapons were used most effectively in what became known as the Highland charge.  In essence this meant that a Highland army would advance to within firing distance of the enemy, let off a dropping shot, to which the enemy musketeers would respond, then, before their opponents had time to reload, rush into their ranks with sword, dirk and targe.  The targe was used to knock enemy bayonets to one side, while the Highland soldiers got to work, with broadsword in one hand and dirk-held behind the shield-in the other.  There are numerous examples of this technique between 1644 and 1746, from the Battle of Tippermuir, where it was first used successfully in Scotland, to the Battle of Culloden, where it was finally defeated by defence in depth.  The whole tactic is thought to have been devised by Alasdair MacColla, the great Scottish-Irish hero, during the Wars of the Three Kingdoms.  You will find detailed information on the subject in Highland Warrior: Alasdair MacColla and the Civil Wars by the Scottish historian David Stevenson.  In the meantime, Erin go Bragh!, if you will allow an English woman to express this sentiment!  Clio the Muse 19:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Since you mention the gladius, i assume your have in mind the "Celtic origin" section of that article, and that by "Celtic long sword" you mean the (70-90cm blade) Celtic sword which split the Romans' wooden shields at the Battle of the Allia, and was the origin of the spatha. If so, i'm not sure that the two are related, the gladius was derived from the Iberian falcata:"a slightly curved sword, single-edged for the first two thirds of its length (55-63 cm) with the remainder of the blade double-edged. Five centimeters wide at its broadest point, the weapon was cast in one piece with the handle and hilt curving back over the hand, providing good protection. The secret of the falcata was in its manufacture, from the finest Spanish steel, which made it so sharp and durable that it would cut through almost any armor and was known to break the Roman sword of this period, a weapon of Greek design and not yet the true gladius of later years. So superior was this weapon, that when Scipio captured Cartegena in 209 B.C.E., he captured a number of Spanish ironsmiths and forced them to teach his own smiths how to manufacture the falcata, which the Romans then adopted and called the gladius hispanicus or sword of Spain. (Gabriel, Richard A. (2002) The Great Armies of Antiquity)" Scipio had fought against Iberians and Celtiberians armed with the falcata at the Battle of Cannae, but in this battle the majority of the Celts were the half-naked, berserker variety from Gaul, and carried the same basic long sword they would in Ceasar's time.&mdash;eric 22:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yours is the better answer, eric; I was ovelooking the Roman link! Clio the Muse 00:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

punishments for breaking the law when one is an illegal immigrant
How many felony/misdemeanor offences must one accumulate before he/she is eligible for deportation In the United states? Would a drug charge be possible grounds for deportation? Would a DUI constitute as a drug offence? The law states that a drug abuse problem is grounds for deportation if it is dangerous to the people surrounding the accuser. Would killing someone in a drinking and driving accident constitute as endangering a fellow citizen?

20:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)Andrea


 * In what country? Neon  Merlin  21:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The United states69.146.59.188drea


 * I don't understand, aren't all illegal immigrants eligible for deportation already, even if they haven't committed any (other) crime ? (They may actually stay in the US longer if they do commit another crime, as they will then be forced to serve jail time prior to deportation.) StuRat 01:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I suspect (I might be wrong) that the questioner is talking about immigrants who have committed illegal acts after immigrating legally. JackofOz 03:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That would make more sense. StuRat 07:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Illegal Immigrants are always eligible for deportation. Deportation takes resources, so in reality, local law enforcement isn't interested in doing it themselves.  Small crimes aren't worth the bother, and large crimes demand punishment, not deportation.  A prosecutor who deported a muderer would lose his job. -Czmtzc 12:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course that is true during the prison sentence, but afterwards deportation is quite likely. I suspect that, for minor crimes, like getting into a bar fight with a fellow illegal immigrant, that most prosecutors would just deport them and not file charges.  StuRat 14:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Second-order deity
Is there a term for the idea that God him/her/itself might be in a body and/or realm controlled by, some sort of deity-over-deities (who may or may not be interested in the affairs of worlds two levels below him/her/it)? Neon Merlin  21:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Which begs the question about n-th order dieties, maybe it's turtles all the way down. -- Diletante 21:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't know that there's any established theology of such, but the most obvious term for this would seem to be "meta-deity"... AnonMoos 01:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You should look into Gnosticism, which involves the concept you are describing. I'm sorry to say you will probably want to look at a better source than the Wikipedia article.  Crypticfirefly 02:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This sounds like Plato's Idealism. His supreme diety must be outside of all creation, for any creation (or motion) would imply imperfection, and therefore the creator of the universe was not the actual godhead, but, rather, the demi-urge.  Utgard Loki 17:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Ft. Collins Colorado
Can anyone tell me who Ft. Collins, Co. is named after?


 * The article Fort Collins, Colorado has the answer you seek. -- Diletante 22:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Ft. Collins Colorado Can anyone tell me who Ft. Collins is named after. Thanks, wsccj8


 * The article that Diletante pointed you to says it was "Named for Col. William O. Collins" CONNECTION RESET —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TotoBaggins (talk • contribs) 03:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC).

Facing east
Hi my name is Claire, and after having a discussion with my sister, we are struggling for an answer, so We hope you can help.

It's to do with Religion and why do Crosses get placed on the East wall in churches and in buryals feet are placed facing East.?

What we think is 1. The sun rise's in the East symbolising a new day, so does this mean New life. 2.Was Christ crucified facing East hence the placing of crosses Easterly facing.?

Many thanks and we will eagerly be awaiting your reply.

Blessings

Claire and Helen.


 * The Catholic Encyclopedia has a relevant article, Orientation of Churches (and compare the 1911 Britannica s.v. Orientation). And on burial orientation, see Bertram Puckle's Funeral Customs (search here for "feet to the East").  Wareh 23:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Open-source license question
Are there any open-source licenses that require those publishing derivative works to say up top what parts they've added, removed and changed? It seems to me this would be the best way to standardize codes of conduct, terms of service and privacy policies without requiring anyone to read the same text twice. Neon Merlin  23:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Peace/War Quote
"There cannot be peace without war, but there can be war without peace."

I am sure that I have heard this quote (or some variation of it). However, I can't seem to find it anywhere. I checked Wikiqoute and Google Searched it. Has anyone heard of it? FruitMart07 23:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * ". . . there may be peace without war, but there cannot be war without some kind of peace."&mdash;Augustine of Hippo, The City of God Book XIX, Chapter 13.&mdash;eric 23:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Reinhold Niebuhr might have been the one to reverse Augustine's words, tho i cannot find a quote.&mdash;eric 00:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

If you are interested in more war and peace quotes you can have Aristotle's famous paradox We make war that we may live in peace, and J. F. Kennedy's variation of this theme, which went It is an unfortunate fact that we can secure peace only by preparing for war. Or you can have Vegetius Let him who desires peace prepare for war, or St. Augustine The purpose of all wars is peace. And so it goes on! Clio the Muse 00:12, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Also Tacitus, "they plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace." Adam Bishop 13:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Words, I understand, that he put into the mouth of the Caledonian leader Calgacus, prior to the Battle of Mons Graupius. Clio the Muse 19:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

"There is no way to peace. Peace is the way." -- Ķĩřβȳ ♥  ♥  ♥  Ťįɱé  Ø  07:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)