Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 August 16

= August 16 =

American Idol owner FremantleMedia Inc. North America sent a letter to me to stop the use of Amerian Fashion Idol and its registration as a service/trade mark
Can someone please help and give me the options for the following trade mark issue.

Background:

I completed the search on the USPTO.org website on the availability of this service and trade mark: American Fashion Idol. It is available and no one has registered it.

I employed a company online to do the filing of this service/trade mark. They did the filing and is now at the USPTO office waiting to be assigned to an examiner.

I was told that I can start to use the name: American Fashion Idol to generate material to promote this event which is offered to multiple charity organization as an opportunity to raise funds for their cause and to help the less fortunate people. Printed material and emails have gone out to the community already. I organized this event without any personal gain and I have been doing charity work since I was in high school.

Then today, 8.17.07, I got a letter from a law firm representing the owner of American Idol and demand that I stop to use my on filed name: American Fashion Idol. I have to reply before 8.22 and that means only a few work days away. The letter said that American Fashion Idol is too close to American Idol and can get people confused, etc. In these day and age of computer, Internet, Google search, etc. how can these two names be mixed and confused by people, especially American Idol is a household name and show. Are they saying that American Idol is not that popular, famous or remembered?

Is this a reasonable demand on the written response with only a few days? What are some of my recourse? Any suggestions? I am thinking that worst case, I will change the name for the time being but I will find some way or some law firm to fight with Goliath. I now know that this name American Fashion Idol is worth a lot of money to them since they will use it to make money for personal gain by licensing the name to merchandisers, etc. just like American Idol.

Also, if you know of someone or law firm, who are interested in this case, please contact .


 * Please see Legal disclaimer - we can not offer you legal advice. Rockpock  e  t  07:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Out of interest, what do they threaten to do if you don't reply, or don't desist? --Dweller 12:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You need to talk to a lawyer about this, but safe to say, trademark protection includes protection against dilution by similar names that may confuse consumers. –Pakman044 13:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Kaharingan (religion)
Kaharingan is a religion practiced by many Dayaks in Borneo. It only got recognition from the Indonesian governement about 20 years ago. The government classified Kaharingan as a form or variation of Hinduism. From an anthropologist point of view is Kaharingan really related to Hinduism? Is there any political motivation to classify the religion as a form of Hinduism? Thats all. Thanks.. kawaputra torque 09:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This page, linked from the Kaharingan page, states that Kaharingan was "classified as an 'offshoot' of Balinese Hinduism" to meet "the Indonesian state's requirement that all citizens adhere to a monotheistic religion." This suggests that there was a political motivation. The page provides a reference (Gall, Timothy L. (ed). Worldmark Encyclopedia of Culture & Daily Life: Vol. 3 - Asia & Oceania.) that may give more detail. - Eron Talk 12:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ah, i didnt read that, sorry. I see, interesting. I dont understand whats the big fuss about recognizing animism. Cos its barbaric? Cos its a threat to national security? Anway, thanks a lot for pointing that out. Will try check out that reference. :) kawaputra torque 17:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It's all to do with politics. Under Indonesian politics, all Indonesian are expected to believe in the existence of one true God. Animism does not fit into that mold. So with a bit of self-delusion, the religion of Kaharingan was made (or forced) into an off shoot of Hinduism. Never let the truth stand in the way of GOOD POLITICS. 202.168.50.40 03:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea. I guess we can say at least the religion is recognized. Thanks. kawaputra torque 04:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Where in Europe do freelance English teachers make the most?
I've taught in a few different large cities in Europe and noticed the standard rate (as I found it from talking to English teachers in the respective areas, the offers of the language schools, etc) differed markedly from one place to another.

So my question is which city would have the highest market rate? I have no idea what would drive local prices -- is it whether a city is "glamorous" (so that there are many people going there to teach English), whether the cost of living (and by extention the per capita income?) is highest, so that things generally are more expensive? The state of the educational system there? Whether there is much of a business center? (Since a lot of the expensive lessons are taken by people using it to make an investment in their careers -- or that of their kids).

How would I go about finding the rate in different places?

As for per capita income, can someone point me to a list of cities sorted by this? What would be a good metric of where there is a thriving "yuppie" culture of people making investments in their careers?

If it makes a difference, I'm an American, with an American education, which in some places make my lesson a "luxury" or able to command a premium over schools who just use someone who learned English for a few years.

Thank you!

84.0.158.38 13:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * There aren't going to be reliable sources for you to find this out. You're going to need to triangulate, but I should warn you very seriously not to overvalue yourself.  The poor will be with us always, and English teachers.  Given the job market in both the US and UK for Ph.D.'s, don't expect a great clamor for your credentials.
 * To triangulate, use common sense first. The less common American dialect speakers are, the more such can command as instructors (provided they have pedagogical experience).  Therefore, "fun places" are going to be the worst and "boring places" or "emerging economies" will be the best in terms of supply and demand.  Now, given the fact that the Peace Corps provides English teachers, you're going to have to face the prospect of some low cost competition anywhere.
 * Next, look at the reliable indicator: how much English teachers are paid by schools. Look at private schools, because their rates of pay will match market conditions better than state schools.  The state schools will often be closed to foreign workers, but, if they are not, then they're the better place to be for reasons of benefits.  In general, private schools will pay teachers 10% less or more than state schools (15% less in the US, but, again, it always varies).
 * The highest demand and pay in comparison to cost of living for English teachers, particularly American English teachers, is not in Europe at all, but in Korea, Japan, and China.
 * Finally, you can get a good idea of cost of living by various cost of living calculators that can be found via Google. Reliability is always suspect with these, but they do exist.  Utgard Loki 18:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * My sense is that Received Pronunciation and Commonwealth spelling are preferred in most of Europe, so a British native speaker might be preferred over an American. My hunch is that you might be able to find lucrative gigs in Moscow, where there is oil money and where it may not be so pleasant to live.  Another European city where you might do well relative to the cost of living is Warsaw.  Possibly you could do well in a place like Düsseldorf, Stuttgart, or Frankfurt helping German businessmen polish their colloquial American skills for meetings at American plants or subsidiaries.  Marco polo 20:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * There is nothing wrong with Moscow! Clio the Muse 02:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The original poster is right that there is some premium to American English. There have been various discussions and attempts at tracking the rise of American English as the dominant form in Europe.  In business, there is a strong bias toward it.  Anecdotally, this is true even in Germany.  However, the question is always about the supply.  There is a lot of supply.  Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, and Poland would be good choices, though.  Geogre 01:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I hear good things about Zurich/Geneva, which have a large expat population. SAT/ O-level tutors are usually needed as well.Hornplease 10:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

St Anthony of Martkofeli
Today being the feast day of St Anthony of Martkofeli (I like how he holds an icon in his icon), I have to ask, where is Martkofeli? And what script is used on that icon? iames 13:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Trying an alternate spelling of Martkopheli gives a hint it could be Georgian. iames 14:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * iames seems to be on the right lines: The Georgian Calendar calls him "Saint Antony (Martkopheli, the Hermit, VI century)", so perhaps Martkopheli may not even be a place? As to the script, I don't pretend to recognize it, except that it looks like Georgian or Armenian, which are related. Compare with this and this. Xn4 16:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Looking for a poem...
I remember reading a wikipedia article a while ago (I think I got to it from DYK on the main page) about an English poet from whom only one surviving poem exists, a poem he wrote the day he died. He was hanged for being part of some plot against the monarchy (not the Gunpowder Plot, but something like that). I remember finding the poem incredibly beautiful. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? --Oskar 13:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Not Thomas Usk? Utgard Loki 14:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no, that's not it :( --Oskar 15:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You're probably thinking of Chidiock Tichborne's Elegy. Xn4 16:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ahh, yes that's the one, thank you! --Oskar 16:29, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Varsågod, Oskar. Xn4 18:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Tackar :) --Oskar 22:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Politics and Religion
Under South African law it is a criminal offence to discriminate against race, sexual orientation, and other stuff. My question just is that, if the Bible promotes homophobia, doesn't that make the Bible an illegal book? Because South African law also states that you may not distribute hateful content or content that inspires other people to discriminate. I've put it really simply here, because I think it has a simple answer anyway? Either the Bible does not discriminate, or it does but nothing is done about it?► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 17:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't taking action against the bible not be some sort of religious discrimination? And so in order to do so, you'd have to break the law you are upholding. ΦΙΛ Κ  18:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all the question is, does homophobic text equate with descrimination? No. To descriminate they'd have to ban homosexuals in churches - and to my knowledge that's not allowed in South Africa. Same-sex marriages weren't legal until recently, but now they are protected and legal. The bible I believe is protected by freedom of speech. Of course freedom of speech has its limitations, like hate-speech, propaganda, etc. All in all this doesn't make the bible an "illegal" book - but maybe on some level it should be seen as such -- but to fight a religious text is very difficult. Some parts of the christian Bible speak of killing homosexuals - but for good reason this hasn't made it into modern-day implementation. People are allowed to be homophobic, in fact people are even allowed to write about homophobia - but to actually descriminate, that's not allowed. Rfwoolf 19:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh ok, thanks very much for that. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 19:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the Bible (to me, anyway, though I respect it is open to interpretation) isn't homophobic, and doesn't promote it. Yes, the Bible does say that homosexuality is a sin (see Homosexuality and the Bible for examples ), that isn't homophobia - homophobia is a hate for not just gay/lesbianism, but homosexuals themselves. The Bible makes God's love for all people very obvious. I think that simply because a book considers homosexuality wrong, that doesn't necessarily mean it promotes homophobia. I think freedom of speech can't be ignored either, though.martianlostinspace email me 21:45, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * A god who encourages killing to the extent seen in the old testament has a decidedly perverse way of showing love for all people. DuncanHill 21:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC) Though, Each god kills the one he loves has just sprung into my mind. DuncanHill 21:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

If you mean my link above, my point is not about people being killed - what I meant was, it is an example of how homosexuality (at least, actually gay/lesbian intercourse) is seen as a sin. From a christian perspective anyway, few/no christians would kill them as said in the link.martianlostinspace email me 22:28, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yet plenty who support criminalisation of homosexual behaviour, discrimination in employment & services, and other homophobic positions. To claim a love of the individual while denying him or her full equality before the law, and full social opportunity to develop and express themself, is rank hypocrisy. I appreciate that not all christians are as I described, but there are very many who are, and who use their holy book to seek to justify their actions. DuncanHill 22:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I have heard that the term homosexual was added to the bible in translation, and the original (or at least Greek) version used a word for a male prostitute instead. I don’t have a verifiable source for this, but perhaps it’s worth looking into. --S.dedalus 22:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, but if it is so that homosexuality is seen as a sin or whatever, why did they decide to see it as a sin? Plus, is it only Abrahamic religions who see homosexuality as a sin? Or are there others?► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 08:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The original (Old Testament) text is in classical Hebrew. The passages that deal with homosexual issues are unambiguously referring to the act, not the person. The term used is not "sin". The act is prohibited using an unusual word, usually translated as an "abomination". But, as already stated by others, focus is on the act, not person and no "hatred" is involved. Interestingly, the Old Testament doesn't explicitly mention lesbian sex, although some commentators see such a prohibition in the vague command not to behave "like Egyptians". Once again, the emphasis is on the act, not the person. --Dweller 10:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * They shall be put to death ... their blood is on their own heads seems, to me, to focus directly on the person, and to imply hatred very strongly indeed. Unless you feel that I love you so much that you must be killed if you don't do what I tell you can be justified. DuncanHill 13:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, it's hard to be anything other than focusing on a person when you're killing them. There's no more or less hatred for the person than for any other executed person. For example, there's no difference in how the corpse was treated (as you might expect with "hate"), or indeed how the execution was carried out. The issue remains that the Bible text prohibits and punishes the act, not the sexuality. That the punishment was astonishingly severe to a modern western mind is unarguable - the question being addressed here is clearly one of severity of response to the homosexual act in the Bible, rather than "hatred" of gay people, per the original question. --Dweller 14:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, but was there a specific reason why they wanted to prohibit people from being homosexual?► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 11:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Who is "they"? If you mean the author of the Bible, you're into theological territory and speculation abounds. Alternatively, you're into soiciological/anthropological territory and... speculation abounds. As a Jewish text, the Old Testament is traditionally regarded as written by God. It contains a whole bunch of commands (613 is the traditional figure), very few of which are explained with reasons (examples of commands with reasons are Tzitzit and Shabbat). A conventional view of the 'lifestyle' type commands is that they are designed to make ordinary people holy ("You shall be holy, because I the Lord your God am holy.") but it's hard work being truly logical about this. --Dweller 11:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it's not that hard. Being logical, we know that the Bible was not written by God, it was written by normal people who were in the human gene pool. So they must have had a reason for criminalizing homosexuality? Why did they see it as a "bad thing"? — Adriaan (T★C)</FONT> 13:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As no-one who espouses a non divine origin for the Bible knows who wrote it, any answer to that question would have to be speculative OR. --Dweller 13:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * "...written by normal people who were in the human gene pool." What nonsense... We all know it was the Annanuki from outer space that wrote the bible. Rfwoolf 13:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's best that you ask "why would someone see homosexuality as a bad thing?" A.Z. 02:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If that's the question, possibly because homosexuals are presumably likely to produce less offspring than heterosexuals? I think childbirth is seen as a good thing in most cultures (you know, to have people to support and protect you when you are elderly).  I can't think of any other reason (other than good old-fashioned hatred of anyone different to you).  The question that really annoys me is why nature apparently sees homosexuality as a good thing: a significant proportion of humans have a - um, condition? - that makes it unlikely for them to pass on their genes.  Surely homosexuality should have been eliminated by natural selection long ago? Bistromathic 16:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Eton school song
What is the name of the Eton song? MindyE 18:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Carmen Etoniense, but you may be thinking of the Eton Boating Song. Xn4 18:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The School Song is Carmen Etonense, link here, however the Eton Boating Song is much more famous. DuncanHill 18:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Nightmare for investors...
A rather cryptic title, but again it has to do with my creative ponderings: How much, in USD and/or GBP, would it cost to feed the entire population of France (or 60ish million people) for one day? Lady BlahDeBlah 21:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It is really a simple math problem. If you bought cheap foods wholesale and prepared them cheaply, you could do it for €6 (US$8). Multiply this by 60 million and you get US $480 million or roughly ₤240 million.  Marco polo 01:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Cult of the personality
I'm looking for some good visual images illustrating the cult of the personality in Stalin's Russia.Zinoviev4 21:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Cult of personality is featured on the Finnish wikipedia. Anyway, Commons:Stalin and Commons:Category:Stalin are the places to start as most contemporary propaganda images of Stalin should be in the public domain, and thus have been transferred onto Wikimedia Commons. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Have a look at this from U Tube, Zinoviev. The music is from the National Anthem of the Soviet Union, adopted in 1944 to replace the Internationale. Clio the Muse 22:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I have just favourited that, thanks Clio, I especially love the pipe-holding while perusing a map of the Eastern Front. DuncanHill 23:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's fun, isn't it! Clio the Muse 23:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I've always loved the tune, of course it got played an awful lot on the Olympics etc when I was a boy, and there are hints of it at the start of the Pet Shop Boys' version of Go West. I also believe the world would benefit from greater use of pipes (and moustaches) in politics. DuncanHill 23:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Zinoviev, I'm sorry I'm straying from your point! On reflection, I award the Joseph Stalin Cup for the finest 'tache of the present day to the Liberal member of parliament Lord Thurso - an image is [here]. The resemblance to Stalin is striking, but what of it? Xn4 02:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * He looks like the kind of dastardly top-hated villain that would tie poor innocent girls to railway tracks!


 * No, more likely he'd invite a girl to 'ave some madeira, m'dear! DuncanHill 08:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * On the rise and fall of facial hair you might be interested in what I wrote on this subject back in April. Here is an extract;


 * The best example I ever saw of the various fallacies you have linked was a mischevious title given by Salvador Dali to an apostolic succession of Marxist 'saints'. He called it The Rise of Marxism Corresponding to the Decline in Facial Hair.  Looking from left to right it begins with a hairy Marx, followed by an even hairier Engels.  Then comes Lenin with his goatee and moustache, followed by Stalin with just the moustache.  Finally comes bare-faced Mao Zedong!  It's very funny.  Clio the Muse 02:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your answers (and spin offs!). That U Tube link is really cool!!! Zinoviev4 18:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

afganistan
Why did america attack iraq and afganistan when everyone knows that osama bin laden is a saudi and most of the al-quada guys are pakis (from pakistan). Also it's common knowledge that they hide in pakistan yet no bombs drop on it. Why?87.102.74.134 21:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This question is one of huge debate across the world of politics and, well, anyone interested in politics. There is justification given (i'll leave it to you to decide its value) that Iraq was ran by a dangerous individual who needed to be deposed. There are people who say that Iraq/Afghanistan can be used as stablising regions in the middle east and to try bring about change (again decide your thoughts on this). There are those who say that Afghanistan harboured terrorists and that in order to 'scare' other nations in the region the USA and its allies took control in Afghanistan. THere are those who argue it is just to secure cheap oil, those who say the interest in Osama is a useful smoke screen to spread by force American lifestyles into the middle east. Virtually every possible scenario is held by someone on this issue. The reasoning is really down to your interpretation of events. If I recall correctly Pakistan is a nuclear power which many think mean sthat any action against them would have to be very delicately done (another reason why many nations strive to build nuclear weapons). ny156uk 22:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, Saudi and Pakistani governments are relatively friendly towards the U.S. while the Taliban of Afghanistan and Hussein of Iraq were openly hostile towards the U.S. As for why the U.S. attacked - why has the U.S. ever gone to war anywhere at any time?  It is very rare that a government gets a Pearl Harbor incident to designate a country as a clear enemy and threat to civilians in the nation. -- Kainaw (what?) 23:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Take a look at Rationale for the Iraq War for an overview of some of the issues. Also, consider that there may be a difference between the reasons American politicians gave for the war, and the real reasons they decided to invade. - Eron Talk 00:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As for why no bombs drop on Pakistan, Pakistan's ruler, Pervez Musharraf, is somewhat cooperative with the United States and Britain and has moved to defuse tensions with India, which makes him (at least in the eyes of the Western powers) a force for stability in the region. However, his hold on power is weak.  If the Western powers were to bomb any part of Pakistan, Musharraf would likely face a very serious risk of being toppled by popular unrest and perhaps by elements of the military angry at his cooperation with the very powers that had violated Pakistan's sovereignty.  If Musharraf fell, he would almost certainly be succeeded by a much less cooperative, perhaps anti-Western, perhaps Islamist government, and the Taliban taking refuge in Pakistan's border regions would operate with even more impunity.  This, anyway, is likely the fear of strategists in Whitehall and the Pentagon.  Marco polo 01:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The reason why USA attacked Afghanistan is well understood so I will not talk about that. There is a reason why the administration decides USA should attack Iraq. '''However the real reason is never reveal to the public. Instead another reason is given to the public to justify the invasion.''' In short, I believe the real reason is to maintain USA political and economic control of that important region of the world, because it is a region which contains a very important source of energy. 202.168.50.40 01:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

follow on question
OK thanks for your replys - One thing that bothers me is that it never seems to be considered (when considering Pakistan/Mushareff) is that he is lying (to US/west), for economic/military reasons ("can I have some cheap F16s please" - ok) and that they are in fact not 'friendly'. Why is that USA foreign policy appears to be based on some sort of child-like trust of whatever a figure head is saying. The same goes for the Saudis - often described as an ally or friendly - in what sense (sure they like to buy US/UK weapons cheap and sell you oil) beyond that in what sense are they 'friends' of the west?

Consider this hypothetical analogy - year 1939 thousands of germans invade poland but the leader of germany says 'they are rebels' and the attack has 'nothing to do with him' and he 'wants to work with you to stop these bandits' - what do you do ? Sell them an aircraft carrier? year 1941 Pearl harbour is bombed but the emperor of japan says they were 'pirates' and not under his control - what do you do - take his word for it and help upgrade his bomber force???87.102.14.51 08:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It all depends on what your own goals are. If you want to maintain good relations with Germany, and cannot afford a war with her, then you would be well advised to do nothing. Looking into the Munich Agreement, and appeasement, will show you that Britain put her interests first for as long as she could before declaring war, as she could not feasibly go to war with Germany. The population didn't want war, and Britain wasn't really strong enough. Even Hitler was suprised when Britain declared war.


 * With the second example, I don't think the American government would be stupid enough to believe that SGGH speak! 15:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hope so. Thanks.87.102.14.51 17:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Greatful Dead
No, not the 70's band, but the custom it took it's name from. one defenition is: "the soul of a dead person, or his/her angel, showing gratitude to someone who, as an act of charity, arranged their burial."

Could someone help me find sources for an article, as it's hard since most of the info is about the band.Samuel 23:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's one to start with from the Encyclopedia Brittanica online. I googled "grateful dead" and "burial" and excluded the words band, jerry garcia, song, album, music, and lyrics. That narrowed it down to about 1500 hits. - Eron Talk 23:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It's actally a folktale motif.  If you looked in Stith Thompson's classic Motif-Index of Folk-Literature, I'm sure you would find it catalogued and indexed with variations... AnonMoos 06:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

What type of source is the Associated Press?
What type of sources is the Associated Press (AP)? Daily periodical? Daily newspaper? I need to know which type of MLA format to use when using AP articles as a source. thanks. 65.96.4.202 23:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Associated Press says "American news agency". See Citing Electronic Resources Using MLA Style. Xn4 23:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It is a news agency, also called a wire service or news service. It is cited in exactly the same way a newspaper is cited. Try NoodleTools NoodleBib. Neutralitytalk 20:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)