Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 August 19

= August 19 =

nude picnic
Is it possible to host a nude picnic in a public park in Toronto?


 * Maybe if it’s for a good cause. --S.dedalus 00:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It's certainly possible. If you do it in daylight, no doubt you'll soon find out what happens next! Xn4 00:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Hanlan's Point Beach on the Island is clothing-optional, but apparently this policy does not extend to the picnic area nearby. So if you want to bring food onto the sand I guess you'd be fine, but otherwise not. --Anonymous, August 19, 00:32 (UTC).


 * The RefDesk can't provide legal advice, so I won't do that. What I will do is note that section 174 of the Criminal Code of Canada addresses public nudity. There is an interesting and informative review of Canada's laws on indecency, including the nudity provisions, here that might provide some guidance. - Eron Talk 01:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

For every bare that ever there was, will gather there for certain because...Clio the Muse 01:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Change and decay in all about I see. Give us back Parson's Pleasure and Dame's Delight! Xn4 02:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Literature in Textbooks / Anthologies
Anyone with familiarity of the industries of publishing, printing, or writing, please weigh in. When I look through a high school or college textbook (or anthology) on Literature, I usually see a sampling of various types / forms (for example, say, 10 short stories, 10 poems, 10 plays, 10 novel excerpts, and 10 essays -- or whatever). I was wondering. Say that one of the poems in this textbook / anthology is Robert Frost's Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening (just as an example). Do the publishers of that book have to pay any money to Robert Frost for use of his poem (sort of like a royalty)? Or, do they just need to get his permission to print it ... and, in essence, he is "honored" to have his poem included in the textbook with no demand for monetary payment? What is the standard in the industry? If there is money involved, what kind of money are we talking about ... a mere pittance or some substantial sum? Also, does it matter if it is a well-known author versus a little-known author? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro 03:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC))


 * Generally speaking, permission in writing is required to reprint anything that is covered by copyright. That the reprint medium is a textbook is of little or no materiality. A writer might be honoured to win a Pulitzer, but doesn't, as far as I know, turn down the cash.  (Most publishing companies have Permissions Editors or whole Permissions Departments whose sole job is to locate the holder of the copyright, to get authorization in writing to reproduce something, to ensure the material is correctly attributed in the text and to pay the fees.) Generally speaking, the longer the item, the more it costs to reprint. My last experience, over 20 years ago, was with a language arts series where we paid from $10 to several hundred dollars to use other people's writings. The charges may also be based on the size of the print run you are producing on the not implausible grounds that the more you stand to make from the text, the more should be paid to those who provided the material.  The better known the author, the higher the price, though there are exceptions. Those on the Ref Desk who have more current experience may have other views. I doubt that things have become less expensive, however. Bielle 04:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "I doubt that things have become less expensive, however." That's for sure. I read a couple of years ago even academic works, which (in this case) a historian used to be able to use quote from, are getting denied permissions free, i.e are demanding payment, & the writer in Q said he dropped some quotes because he (or the publisher) couldn't afford the fee... (Myself, I'd take out any reference to it, bibliography included...) Trekphiler 16:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Song
Does anyone know the name of the song in this video ? Bewareofdog 04:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's "Ode to Joy", the European Union's anthem. See European anthem.  --Nricardo 07:11, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

regressive sentence
Is uttering the sentence : " the self is what makes choices that define the essence of self " , an instance of invoking the axion of choice ? ... think about it ... 206.74.74.42 04:48, 19 August 2007 (UTC) willie


 * No. The axiom of choice is a formal statement in axiomatic set theory. It is not related to the given sentence. Algebraist 13:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

women's role in mass media
can i have the information regarding the participation of women in mass media? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.211.177.74 (talk • contribs)


 * Your question is far too broad. Women don't fulfil many specific roles in mass media (both of which are very broad topics), but you might want to read about sex in advertising.--Shantavira|feed me 09:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Resistance to the Brazilian Military Dictatorship
Why did so many students from middle class backgrounds join the resistance against Brazil's military dictatorship in the 1960s and 1970s?Pere Duchesne 07:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I imagine that it started with them doing their own homework. But seriously... Historically (and globally) students tend to be more progressive (and optimistic) than their parents, and presumably these ones wanted change. Students never tend to like the suspension of democracy. Read our article History of Brazil (1964–1985) for a bit of background and let us know if you reach any interesting conclusions.  Plasticup   T / C  19:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * But that article doesn't even contain the word student. A.Z. 19:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

To begin with you have to consider what was happening in Brazil prior to the military coup of 1964. The 1950s and the 1960s was a period of growing national prosperity, which brought considerable economic and cultural benefits to the growing middle class, finding expression in music, cinema and poetry. Directors like Glauber Rocha brought new forms of cinematic language into use, focusing specifically on Brazil's underlying social and political problems. Theatre also underwent the same process of growing social awareness, as did literature. So, radical aesthetics walked in step with new modes of radical political consciousness, especially marked among the country's educated youth. Many of these people, in matters of debate, and in advancing new programmes of socialist reform, assumed that they were speaking for the Brazialian masses in general. Still more became involved in grass-roots activism, designed to educate the people and prepare for social revolution. It was Brazil's spring of hope. All was frustrated in 1964, when the military made its appearance on the political stage.

The fall of Joao Goulart, the left-wing president, brought an end to the 'democratic dawn.' All those in the student movement who had been radicalised by cultural freedom and left-wing ideologies, began to look for alternative ways forward. Unable to move the apathetic underclass, they began to look for fresh forms of direct action, much like the Red Army Fraction in Germany. It was a classic model of what might be described as 'revolutionary substitution'; in place of revolution by the inert masses, revolution would be achieved by by a committed elite through violence; by those seeking to push history down its designated path.

Things began to move in 1968, with the apperance of widespread student protests. In response the government issued, in December of that year, Institutional Act Number Five, suspending civil rights, and immeasurably increasing the power of the executive. Protest were suppressed with unrestrained violence. This was the point when the anti-military movement descended into the political underground. One of the students at Pedro II High School was later to describe the process thus;

''All of us were cut off from any participation in political life. I'd say that we belonged to a generation that had its roads blocked. I had no idea of participation in the student movement would lead me to become a militant. The things I did back then were natural things, part of my universe. I collected stamps, was class officer, president of the student union. I organised parties, organised student assemblies, took part in strikes. My aim was to become an engineer. My going underground-shortly after Institutional Act No. 5-was a consequence of the political moment we were living through.''

By the end of the decade there were some twenty organisations involved in the urban guerilla movement. The old-left, particularly on the shape of the Brazilian Communist Party, was seen as irrelevant and out-moded, as Marxist-Leninist, Maoist, Trotskyist, Castroist, and all the other shades of left-wing ideology competed for the loyalty of the young militants,. especially in places like Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo. Recruitment drives were carried out in schools and universities, initially with lectures in Marxist theory. Bit by bit the most determined were drawn deeper into activism, some taking the decision to leave their families and go underground.

It was in 1969 that the authorities became fully aware of the new danger they faced, when Charles Burke Elbrick, the US ambassador, was kidnapped in Rio, a action carried out by the Revolutionary Movement 8th October. In response more sophisticated measures of counter-insurgency were adopted, leading to the killing of Carlos Marighela, one of the most important of the guerilla leaders, two months after Elbrick's kidnapping.. Thereafter the whole urban movement went into decline.

Through violence the urban movement had lost the tacit support of their families and peers. But more generally the middle-class mileu from with the student revolutionaries originated was benefiting from the regime's economic success; and with wealth came political quietism. By the 1970s those left in the underground were increasingly isolated, faced with the daily threat of arrest and torture. A movement that began with such high and idealistic hopes was moving in a downward spiral. Clio the Muse 01:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I copied Clio's educated reply to History of Brazil (1964–1985). --Ghirla-трёп- 23:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Falklands crisis of 1770
Can anyone tell me any more about this? Tower Raven 11:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * History of the Falkland Islands has some information in section 3. Colonisation. It is all quite sketchy, though, with the English and the French taking turns winning at "Bully on the Sand Hill" in games played earlier by/with the Spanish and then later with the Americans who withdrew after their own expensive War of Independence. Bielle 15:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not what you asked about, but 1833 invasion of the Falkland Islands is more interesting. Xn4 20:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It's an historical oddity that these islands, remote, wind-swept, with little strategic importance and no mineral wealth, have taken England to the threshold-and over the threshold-of war some five times; with Spain, with France and with Argentina. In fact it was the 1770 'crisis in a tea cup' that begins the whole sequence.

English sailors first caught sight of the Falklands in the late sixteenth century. In the following century the government was to make a half-hearted claim, though under the Treaty of Tordesillas they fell within the Spanish orbit. It was only in 1748, with the report of Admiral Lord Anson, that London began to give the matter its serious attention, sounding out the Spanish on the question of sovereignty. This only had the effect of drawing up the battle lines, though the matter was put to one side for the time being. An uncertain equlibrium might have remained but for the unexpected intervention of a third party-France.

After the conclusion of the Seven Years War, the French, attempting to improve their position in the South Atlantic, landed in the Falklands, establishing a base at St. Louis, now Port Stanley. At the same time, the one unbeknown to the other, the British made their own landing at Port Egmont in the west. Responding to Spanish objections, the French handed over Port Louis, now renamed as Port Soledad, though neither party was as yet aware of the proximity of the English, until a chance sighting of some ships in December 1769. And now we have a little overture to what was to come just over two hundred years later.

In June 1770 the Spanish governor of Buenos Aires sent five frigates to Port Egmont, landing some 1600 marines. The small British force present promptly surrendered. When Parliament assembled in November, the MPs, outraged by this insult to national honour, demanded action from the government. The Spanish attempted to strengthen their position by winning the support of France, invoking the Pacte de Famille between the two Bourbon crowns. For a time it looked as if all three countries were about to go to war, especially as the Duc de Choiseul, the French minister or war and foreign affairs, was in a militant mood. But Louis XV took fright, telling Charles III that "My minister wishes for war, but I do not." Choiseul was dismissed from office, and without French support the Spanish were obliged to seek a compromise with the British.

In January 1771 the British were allowed to restore the base at Port Egmont, although the whole question of sovereignty was simply sidestepped, a source of future trouble. The best verdict on the little fracas was passed by Samuel Johnson in his pamphlet Thoughts on the late Transactions Respecting Falkland's Island, looking at the British problem in holding such remote islands against a hostile mainland, "...a colony that could never become independent, for it could never be able to maintain itself." And so it remains today. Clio the Muse 02:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * An interesting account, as ever, Clio, but either our articles are wrong or:
 * Port Egmont was on Saunders Island, off the west coast of West Falkland (not to the east of Port Louis).
 * Port Louis (St. Louis?) and Port Stanley, while both on the east coast of East Falkland, are not in the same place, the latter being several miles further south than the former.
 * While perhaps of little strategic importance in the 1770s, the Falklands did come in useful later decades as a stopping off point for vessels sailing round Cape Horn - for example, in the California Gold Rush, and later as a coaling station (although not as important and well-placed as, say, Ascension Island). Now, there are fishing rights, and potential oil and gas interests.  -- !! ?? 13:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yikes! East is east and west is west. I've corrected my error; thanks.  As for the rest please refer to volume one the 1929 edition of The Cambridge History of the British Empire, and William Hunt's History of England, 1760-1801.  Clio the Muse 22:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The Humanities Desk
Hello, y'all. I've been following the questions and answers here for some time now, in obvious danger of becoming a complete adict! The Humanities desk is is head and shoulders above all of the others, and I am astonished with the ease and competence with which so many of you answer question, and the sheer levels of erudition displayed in the process. I have a number of favourites among the contributors, including Clio the Muse, Geogre, Marco Polo, Xn4, and Sluzzelin. My question is this: what is it the motivates people to give their time and expertise here when there's no palpable reward? Is contributing a reward in itself? Please do not get me wrong; I am glad that you do; it's just that I am puzzled by the sheer altruism of it all! I hope my inquiry is not out of place-and I do realise that you operate under clear and understandable parameters-but I really would like to know. Answer if you will. All the very best from Admiratio 12:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I've put the numbered list, below, with blanks for folks as they were named (i.e. my answer is second).
 * 1) Since a place has been 'kept warm' for me I suppose I have no choice but to answer! Why do I contribute here?  First and foremost, because it's fun, perverse as that may sound to some.  I like anything to do with hard empirical knowledge, and I like testing my research skills.  More than that, as I have said elsewhere,-and Sluzzelin may be mindful of this-it is for me a form of 'mind aerobics', allowing me to exercise my intellect over a range of issues, some of which are outwith the context of my immediate research concerns.  It's also, I suppose, an interesting exercise in forms of intellectual interaction.  Clio the Muse 00:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) For me, I get a kick thinking about these things. Yes, it's altruism, primarily, or as near as I get to it, but I get a great deal out of the recombination and jarring of ideas and facts.  From these answers, both those of others and the ones I've tried to formulate, I have rolled over some rocks and discovered some new perspectives of my own.  It is never merely the fact that is interesting, but the combination of facts in the narrative that is useful, and that's the fun.  I have, many times, gotten views that I would take away and develop. Geogre 12:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Really, I do it because it's fun! I love learning, and I love sharing what I know, particularly if it might help someone. Marco polo 15:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Thanks for your question and your compliment, Admiratio! I'm the novice on this desk, but I find it testing and recreational at the same time. On Wikipedia in general, I'll say "Only connect!": this site is a project with mind-boggling potential. Xn4 17:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Everything Geogre, Marco, and Duncan said. In addition, I found that the desks (along with watchlisting) perfectly fit my time and brain structure which usually won't allow me to do a lot of serious and heavy content editing, still our noblest duty here on Wikipedia. My greatest admiratio goes to the editors who included all this wonderful information to which we can link you from here. ---Sluzzelin talk  16:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I enjoy answering the questions, it keeps my mind sharp. SGGH speak! 18:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * For me it's much as Geogre said, I do enjoy helping others, and I also enjoy the "detective" side of it too - I've found many interesting articles on Wp, and other interesting sites elsewhere, in my attempts to answer questions. DuncanHill 13:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I am not on the list, but I would also like to add that it is fun to help people, although perhaps there is also a bit of showing-off involved ("look how much I know!"). It is even better when a discussion here leads to the creation (or expansion) of an article, because the collaborative effort is what the site is all about (like the Battle of Arsuf article a couple of weeks ago). The only drawback to the RD, I find, is that it moves too quickly - discussions are archived after a week, but sometimes it takes much longer than that for the discussion to be concluded, so it has to be moved to talk pages. Adam Bishop 02:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Good thinking starts with good questions. And the ref desk (in general) provides some good ones. It's rather like having a good in-depth discussion with friends ('setting up a tree' as we say in Dutch), but with plenty of time to come up with the right answers. Sort of like the difference between speed chess and correspondence chess. Just that this is actual correspondence. :) DirkvdM 06:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Some mix of boredom, vanity, and honest-to-god altruism. --24.147.86.187 23:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Or altruism that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with religion. :) DirkvdM 19:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I ask and expect people to answer, therefore must answer myself. 68.39.174.238 02:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

CONTROVERSIAL NURSERY RHYMES
I have heard that there are some nursery rhymes, which have hidden meanings, which have come from strange origins, which are nonsense, or which are simply ill-composed. I wonder where I can read about such in the Internet. Would you be so kind to refer to me some links? Thank you so much.. I am actually studying literary criticisms on my own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.1.86.57 (talk • contribs)
 * Goosey Goosey Gander for starters, also Ring a Ring O'Roses may or may not (WP article says not) be about the Bubonic plague. Category:Nursery_rhymes would lead to others. PamD 15:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I would suggest starting with List of nursery rhymes in English and just go clicking down the blue links. Not all the of articles so linked are good, and some are better referenced than others; however, there are many suggestions for outside reading.  There has been much written on this subject.  You can start with the controversy over who really was the original Mother Goose and go from there. Bielle 15:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Not directly to your question, but by "nursery rhyme" we seem to mean two separate things, at least. One is folk tale in rhyme, where the author is anonymous.  These are generally in ballad form, and their transmission to children can be odd.  Ring around the rosie, Here we go round the mulberry bush, and London Bridge are that kind of thing.  On the other hand, after about 1695, we begin to have authored children's rhymes (this is a rough date; we can count Charles Perrault as one, but the children's rhyming story doesn't really take off until later).  These, unlike the folk ballads, tend to emphasize simple life lessons or nonsense verse.  There are even occasions of the parody of children's literature getting used as children's rhyme (e.g. Namby Pamby, which pokes at Ambrose Philips's second Odes, which included rhymes for children).  If you want nursery rhymes with folk origins and dark hints, you'll need to look for a relatively small set of folk ballads.  Geogre 20:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd say it's rather more complicated than that, since there are nursery rhymes that don't appear to be either folk tale nor specifically authored as such. However, the distinction between rhymes passed down by word-of-mouth and rhymes acquired from books is useful indeed. Also remember that there are rhymes passed down from adult to child, and rhymes passed from child to child. The former tend to be found in books these days, or just be songs and rhymes that the adult remembers (which were not necessarily originally nursery rhymes). The latter can be all sorts of nonsense, and yet strangely consistent between children. Any nursery rhymes which have 'hidden meaning' would be expected to have originally been popular rhymes or songs among adults, only later being repeated to children as nursery rhymes and preserved like that. So any song that appears especially aimed at children, or about childhood, would appear less likely to carry hidden meanings. (Unless it's a later parody in nursery rhyme style) (On this subject, our article says 'Ring a ring a roses' has no hidden meaning almost entirely because that is what Snopes says. I personally find the Snopes article on this subject flawed in a number of ways, but it would take a long time to find the sources to say what I want to say! Maybe someday I'll get round to it.) Skittle 01:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Georgie Porgie is a political satire. Corvus cornix 02:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As is The Grand Old Duke of York. Hornplease 03:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * And Yankee Doodle, for that matter, but we're into political song and satirical song, very popular in the 1730's on (and see Vicar of Bray (song)) which passed over. (There's some kind of business with America the Beautiful too, if you ask me.  I don't think it's accidental that the tune is the same as God Save the King.)  Geogre 12:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's not "America the Beautiful". The tune of "God Save the King" is used by "America", or "My Country 'tis of Thee".  Corvus cornix 15:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently, I'm having a bad week. Time to check the biorhythms to find out when I'll start getting details again.  Geogre 20:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Since Skittle mentions Snopes... One nursery rhyme that most definitely does not have a "hidden meaning" is 'Sing a Song of Sixpence'. Snopes claimed in an article that the rhyme was "a coded message used to recruit crew members for pirate vessels"; a claim entirely made up by themselves to illustrate the perils of over reliance on one source (see here). Incidentally, at least one Urban Legends TV show has fallen for this lie. Hammer Raccoon 14:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Peter Peter Pumpkin Eater seemed creepy to me, but our article has had all the details deleted on why, so here they are elsewhere: . StuRat 04:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

According to The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes: " Much ingenuity has been exercised to show that certain nursery rhymes have had greater significance than is now apparent. They have been vested with mystic symbolism, linked with social and political events, and numerous attempts have been made to identify the nursery characters with real persons. It should be stated straightway that the bulk of these speculations are worthless." The speculation includes:
 * Ladybird, Ladybird a form of exorcism (apparently you can rid yourself of a witch by claiming her house is on fire) and The Rosicrucians says it's a remnant of Egyptian beliefs concerning Isis and the scarab beetle.
 * Wee Willie Winkie from a Jacobite reference to William III of England.
 * The Rock-a-bye Baby is either Horus, the Old Pretender, or an Indian baby described by a Mayflower Pilgrim in the first work of poetry composed in the New World.

There are a few with "fair evidence" of referring to a real life person:
 * Jacky, the fiddler is Rattlin' Roarin' Willie.
 * What is the rhyme for porringer an Oranger, from a Jacobite threat to the life of William.
 * Charley over the water is Bonnie Prince Charlie.
 * Jack Sprat makes fun of an Archdeacon Pratt.
 * As I walked by myself is another reference to William.

And a few others, all but Jack Sprat i've never heard of before. There's one tho: "one of the few, perhaps the only one, in which there is justification for suggesting that it preserves the memory of a dark and terrible rite of past times", human sacrifice, living children entombed in clay and mortar foundations to act as guardian spirits, London Bridge Is Falling Down.&mdash;eric 08:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

'''Thank you very much for your answers. You have been very helpful.. I have a follow-up question: I am not familiar with some of the nursery rhymes, which you mention above. Is there any website where I can get the chance to listen to how they are sung? Again, my profound gratitude to you..''' Carlrichard 02:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

There are a few that offer MIDI versions of the tune along with the words so you can get a gist of how they were sung. This site is like that, but the MIDIs weren't playing for me. I'm sure there are other sites available that do similar things and CDs of nursery rhymes are usually quite cheap. I'd also like to re-emphasize a caveat that's been mentioned already: a lot of the so-called explanations for nursery rhymes are pure speculation and folk etymology. If you make up a song to sing to your child or a joke to amuse your co-workers, you don't jot down what the thing's about or what you're referring to - it's not needed. Here's something to try: make up a context-sensitive joke about someone you know or something you've just experienced. Now try to imagine what someone from a different country two hundred years in the future would think when they tried to analyze it. Your reference to a bird that slapped into your house window becomes a reference to 9/11 and you burning your hand on a flaming marshmallow becomes a reference to wildfires, or corrupt politicians getting found out, or whatever else makes sense to a person completely removed from your frame of reference. Matt Deres 17:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

a project on ' womens role in history;
a project has to be submited by students of grade9, ON 3 SEPTEMBER 2007 on 'women role in history' biographies of 14 women is expected. I HAVE FINISHED 9 OF 14 KNOW I NEED: 19 CENTURY- DOCTOR 19 & 20 CENTURY -SOLDIERS 19 CENTURY- REVOLUTIONARIE 19 CENTURY-SOCIAL WORKER
 * soldier,dotors(MEDICAL), revolutionaries,social workers, politition,philosophers{2 women each-one from 19 and othe from 20 century}

NOTE: THEY SHOULD HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THEIR PROFESSION AND WORLD(PEOPLE AROUND THEM) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aysha sana (talk • contribs)


 * You will find a list of admirable women at Clio the Muse's userpage. Clio is one of our top help-desk people, and I feel sure she will have some excellent suggestions for you next time she pops in. DuncanHill 13:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * She has now poped in! Thanks for good opinion, Duncan.  Clio the Muse 23:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The dependable, nay infallible Clio has poped in! --Wetman 02:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Then how about (I'm sorry about this) Pope Joan? Xn4 02:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I found you a choice of 19th century female physicians with articles on wikipedia. They are, in alphabetical order: Elizabeth Blackwell, her sister Emily Blackwell, Marie Boivin, Susan Dimock, the Edinburgh_Seven (three of them with articles: Sophia Jex-Blake, Isabel Thorne, Edith Pechey), Elizabeth Garrett Anderson, Frances Hoggan, Harriot Kezia Hunt, Elsie Inglis, Anandi Gopal Joshi, Mary Scharlieb, Yoshioka Yayoi (barely 19th century), and Maria Zakrzewska. ---Sluzzelin talk  14:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * How about Emily Stowe, the first female doctor in Canada? Adam Bishop 20:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Anyone remember the name of the woman who cross dressed and served as a soldier in the armies of George I and George II before retiring and raising a family? I should know her name, but it's flown.  We do have a decent article on her.  We also have some fair articles on the female pirates in Joan Druett's Hen Frigates.  Geogre 20:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Might this be Hannah Snell? There is also the example of Ann Mills. who served as a dragoon.  Clio the Muse 23:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely Hannah Snell! Ann Mills was an interesting story, but Hannah Snell proved legendary.  In fact (gulp) I will admit to having read Terry Pratchett's Monstrous Regiment, where the old sergeant is pretty well modeled on a legend of Hannah Snell.  She was the most publicized, and our article is sufficient to get a young student going.  Thanks, Clio.  (Was it Mary Davys who was the supposed amazon of the seas, when, of course, she was nothing of the sort?  I think that's the name.)  Geogre 02:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Mary Read or perhaps Anne Bonny? Clio the Muse 02:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, yes. Anne Bonny is the most famous.  I'm still thinking that there was a Mary Davys (although there was also a poet by the name around the same time), but I'll settle this tomorrow when I go to my copy of the Druett book.  I remember because she has a nice illustration of how the woodcuts of the women change over time to make them more lithesome and naked, when they were just women who were captains and not the high seas version of Monster.  Geogre 03:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Aysa. Since the medical area of your inquiry has been well covered by others it only leaves me to provide some examples to place under your remaining headings.

SOLDIERS. Have a look here at the History of women in the military, where you will find more examples than you could ever possibly need. My personal favourites are both Russian, one from the nineteenth and the other from the twentieth century: Nadezhda Durova, the first female officer in the Russian army, and Maria Bochkareva, who founded the wonderfully named Women's Battalion of Death during the First World War.

REVOLUTIONARIES. From a wide field you might choose Eleanor Marx, Karl Marx's youngest daughter, or Laura, her elder sister; Louis-Antoine Garnier-Pagès, who fought on the streets of Paris during the July Revolution of 1830; Constance Georgine, Countess Markiewicz, an Irish revolutionary, suffragette and political activist, whose career spans the nineteenth and twentieth centuries; Rosa Luxemburg from Poland, whose career also spans both centuries, as did that of Catherine Breshkovsky, alias 'Babushka'.

SOCIAL WORKER. In the context of the nineteenth century I take this to mean women who were involved, to some degree or other, in the area of social reform. Here again there are a great many individuals, and I choose a few purely at random, and from a British background. There is Octavia Hill, the original 5% philanthropist, important also in the the foundation of social work as a profession; Elizabeth Fry, the prison reformer; and Rebecca Jarrett, who campaigned against child prostitution. Clio the Muse 23:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * For a 20th century soldier, sort of, how about Roza Robota? Adam Bishop 00:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You can't talk about social workers without talking about Jane Addams. Corvus cornix 02:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Mary Seacole (the popular contemporary primary school counterpoint to Florence Nightingale - a "doctress" or sutler, depending on your point of view); Ekaterina Bakunina (the "Russian Nightingale"); perhaps Darja Mikhailova (aka Dasha Sevastopolskaya).

For cross-dressing female soldiers, see Category:Female wartime crossdressers. Does Phoebe Hessel fit the bill for the soldier under the Georges? Then there is James Barry: man or woman? -- !! ?? 13:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

For social workers, Caroline Chisholm springs to mind from my neck of the woods. She belongs to the small club of people who've (a) been honoured on our currency, (b) had a suburb in the national capital Canberra named after them, and (c) had a federal electorate named after them. She's also classified as a saint in the Anglican Church. Our article on her needs a lot more work. -- JackofOz 04:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Lizzie McGuire Movie
In the movie, Hillary Duff sang the song 'What Dreams Are Made Of'. Apparently, I heard that her voice was...mixed with someone else's voice. Is that true? -- Zachary crimsonwolf  14:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Did you try the Entertainment Desk? &mdash;Tamfang 02:35, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Charles Dickens
who is the most tragic character in the novels of Charles dickens?


 * I find it hard to see Dickens as a writer of tragedy, but two characters whose lives have real elements of it are Paul Dombey (see Dombey and Son) and Abel Magwitch. Of the two, I'd say Magwitch. Xn4 15:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Smike. DuncanHill 15:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Adding two female characters, with a tragic ambivalence and a tragic ending: Nancy and Miss Havisham. ---Sluzzelin talk  16:11, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Little Nell is almost a runner, despite Oscar Wilde's unkind quip, "One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell without laughing." Xn4 18:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A quip is neither kind nor unkind: it is funny or it is not funny, that is all. DuncanHill 21:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oscar speaks again through you, Duncan. Xn4 00:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

There is only one figure that leaps out for me here-Jo, the young crossing sweeper from Bleak House. He is truly heart-breaking. He has no surname; he has no antecedents; he has no posterity. He is merely a feather on the breath of time. Clio the Muse 22:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Now, Clio, you above all people should be distinguishing between pathos and tragedy! --Wetman 02:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, but Wetman, Jo breaks my heart; and therin lies the tragedy! Clio the Muse 02:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would go with Smike of Nicholas Nickleby. Wrad 03:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to concur with Sluzzelin: Havisham is actually tragic in the classical sense. (I haven't contributed to this before because Dickens is one of my holes.  Don't like him much, don't read him much, don't remember him well.)  Dickens's works are pretty heavily marked by poetic justice (where fiction shows "what must or should occur" rather than "what did occur," according to Aristotle's Poetics), and so the evil suffer by their own evil.  (I.e., unlike in life, the evil do not get very rich, very happy, and die at an advanced age in their third resort homes.)  However, for a tragic figure, the character has to be good and heroic but have a single flaw, the pursuit of which leads to the great fall.  I think Miss Havisham is the nearest thing, as Dickens's general game is to create tragedy with his main characters and then offer redemption (a common plotting in Christian fiction), and she does fall.  Geogre 11:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * How about Agnes, the mother of Oliver Twist, who died in the opening scene after giving birth ? StuRat 22:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Per above, that's pathos rather than tragedy, as she doesn't really do anything to deserve the fate nor prove heroic prior to her fall. (I know, unmarried mother...not really the same thing, though.)  Geogre 02:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, from Oliver Twist, I always read Fagin as tragic. He gets the whole Shylock treatment, but he also cares for his boys and "falls" due to avarice and weakness, so he is somewhat admirable and falls through his flaw.  It's just that he's not supposed to be very admirable in a law and order world of anti-semitic London.  Geogre 02:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * According to Orwell Dickens wrote "awful pages of pathos" with "no genuine tragedy", but i'll try James Steerforth. Tragic from David's point of view if not the reader's.&mdash;eric 05:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

United States GDP calculation: Fisher vs Laspeyres
I'm trying to figure out how the Bureau of Economic Analysis calculates the United States' real gross domestic product. In at least one area, their documentation confuses me; they make it unclear whether a Laspeyres or a Fisher index formula is used:

In "Updated Summary of NIPA Methodologies" (2006), they seem to describe real GDP as being calculated as a Laspeyres index with base year 2000:


 * BEA uses three methods to estimate GDP ... The deflation method is used for most components of GDP. The quantity index is derived by dividing the current-dollar index by an appropriate price index that has the base year -- currently 2000 -- equal to 100. ... The direct valuation method uses quantity indexes that are obtained by multiplying the base-year price by actual quantity data for the index period. (page 2 of PDF)

In "A Guide to the National Income and Product Accounts of the United States" (2006), they describe using a Fisher index:


 * The annual changes in quantities and prices in the NIPAs are calculated using a Fisher formula that incorporates weights from 2 adjacent years. For example, the 2003-2004 change in real GDP uses prices for 2003 and 2004 as weights, and the 2003-04 change in prices uses quantities for 2003 and 2004 as weights. (page 16 of PDF)

A footnote in the latter document might help resolve the contradiction:


 * Because the source data available for most components of GDP are measured in dollars rather than units, the quantities of most of the detailed components used to calculate percent changes are obtained by deflation. For deflation, quantities are approximated by real values (expressed, at present, with 2000 as the reference year) that are calculated by dividing the current-dollar value of the component by its price index, where the price index uses 2000 as the reference year. (footnote 35, page 16 in PDF)

Here is sounds like they're using a Laspeyres index to calculate the quantity inputs to a Fisher index. Doesn't this defeat the purpose of using a Fisher index, though?

Even if it doesn't, I'm still confused. It sounds like they would normalize both year 2003 and year 2004 quantities to year 2000 quantities. Can these really just be plugged into a Fisher formula representing the 2003-2004 change?

--Ryguasu 17:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Renting apartments
Is it true that apartments won't let you rent if you don't have a credit card? 67.188.22.239 18:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I suspect it depends on the nature of the authority controlling the rent. If you are renting from a large respectable company or business I suspect they may expect/require one, a self--employed man running a small row of two room flats in down-town Mumbai probably wouldn't mind. You ought to check with whichever person you are renting it from. Remember we can't supply legal advice. SGGH speak! 18:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * There probably isn't any law preventing it, but one thing to think about is that a lack of a credit card probably also means your credit history is also similarly undeveloped. Many landlords these days will do a credit check as a part of the process of determining whether they will rent to you.  I also get the feeling that it will vary on the basis of the location of where you are renting and the clientele involved.  –Pakman044 19:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It is more probable that if you have no credit history (or a bad credit history), the leasing agent or management company will require that you have a cosigner. This was the case when I rented my first apartment, at a point when I had virtually no credit history. Carom 23:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Things may have changed in the past few years, but I've never been asked for a credit card when renting an apartment -- just proof of income and references. -- Mwalcoff 02:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it's not true. Some apartment complex may ask for a credit card, but I wouldn't honor that request.  You must have a credit rating and may need to be above R## to rent, and you will need a letter stating your job, but no credit card.  You may put your security deposit on a credit card, if you like, but that's a bad idea, too.  You don't want any escrow sum taken from a revolving credit card.  Geogre 03:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I suspect that this is about the US, where it is pretty standard to have a credit card. In other countries it is more common to have a bank card (oops, disambiguation, I mean a debit card). But even that would not be necessary, just as long as you can prove you have a steady income. For which a copy of a bank statement would be handiest. DirkvdM 06:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Simply having a credit card in and of itself is fairly unremarkable (US) and does not necessarily say much about your suitability as a potential renter. Hell, I must get about 2 "pre-approved" credit cards in the mail daily. 38.112.225.84 12:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * True, and most of those "pre-approved" ones are extremely bad forms of credit at that (companies that "don't care about your credit history!" are usually hoping that you will rack up a lot of debt and then spend the rest of your life paying off high interest rates). --24.147.86.187 23:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been asked about credit history in renting before, but not always. Usually it just depends on whether they think you are going to be able to reliably get the rent to them each month. If you have a job that is not too hard to guarantee. If you don't have any credit history at all you can often co-sign with someone who does (your parents, for example), who will be held responsible if you skip town, etc. --24.147.86.187 23:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Propaganda and music
I recently asked for some examples of Soviet propaganda and got a very good response, one with a music link. I am now looking for a Nazi example, if possible. Thanks a lot for your help. Zinoviev4 20:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is an Sturmabteilung propaganda reel, produced for one of the Nuremberg Rallies, with the most famous Nazi song of all . Clio the Muse 22:32, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As a side-note, I once heard both fascist and communist tunes as they were sung in Germany in the 1930s. The nazi music was lighthearted lederhosen-stuff, whereas the communist tunes were much more serious. I can very well imagine that most people at the time (who were effectively forced to choose between the two) would have found the fascist rallies much more appealing. Don't laugh, music works directly on the emotions and your choice of music will very much help determine the size and type of your following. DirkvdM 06:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No laughs, Dirk. Propaganda is an art, and both Hitler and Goebbels were first rate practitioners.  Please have a look at the relevant passages in Mein Kampf.  Also the apotheosis of Horst Wessel and his song was pure political theatre, another brilliant coup  by the malevolent dwarf himself.  (He was called that by one of his own party comrades).  Clio the Muse 23:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Another famous but far older example, is Haydn & Hoffmann von Fallersleben's Deutschlandlied. It also came to symbolize Nazi Germany, since they used it too, yet the third stanza finally survived the Third Reich. The Hitler Youth marched to Vorwärts! Vorwärts! schmettern die hellen Fanfaren (also known as Unsre Fahne flattert uns voran, an example of Baldur von Schirach's less than mediocre writing talents, music by Hans Otto Borgmann). Youth was a popular theme and target of musical propaganda, the austrofascists had their Lied der Jugend ("Song of the Youth", also known as the Dollfuß song), and the Italian fascists sang La Giovinezza . Clio's example is indeed the most famous and iconic example, and it was originally supposed to be the song losing the battle in Rick's Café. For copyright reasons, Warner Brothers had to pick a song more representative of the "Second Reich" than the Third, Die Wacht am Rhein, which was gloriously drowned out by La Marseillaise, in one of the most remarkable music battles in the history of film. ---Sluzzelin  talk  07:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Vive la France! That is one of my favourite moments in the movie.  Besides, the Germans sing so badly!  I'm intrigued, Sluzzelin.  What copyright issues were there over the Horst Wessel Lied in 1942?  I can't imagine the German government would have been in a position to take Warner Brothers to court.  Clio the Muse 23:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Mine too, Clio. But there are so many favourite moments in this classic film.  Anyone who hasn't ever bothered to see Casablanca, or who's seen it and doesn't love every moment of it, is beneath contempt.  But just imagine what it might have been like if Rick had been played by the studio's original choice, Ronald Reagan.  Horrors.  --  JackofOz 04:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ronald Reagan! Sam, do not play it, under any circumstances!  Have you been on holiday?  Clio the Muse 23:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yep. --  JackofOz 02:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Welcome back. Clio the Muse 03:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * In response to Clio: Running the film in neutral countries might not have been possible. South American markets in particular seemed to have been significant enough for Warner Brothers not to take that legal risk. (from The German-Hollywood Connection). ---Sluzzelin talk  08:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Upon reviewing and relistening that scene in my mind, I think Max Steiner even uses a modulated version of the Deutschlandlied (changing it from major to distorted minor) to accompany the angry and humiliated Major Strasser stomping up to Rick to voice his indignation. ---Sluzzelin talk  13:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks fot that information, Sluzzelin. Clio the Muse 23:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * notable for the fascist movement in Spain is Cara al sol, the Falange-Anthem. It should be noted that thinking of the use of music in nazigermany as merely rumtata is wrong. they were much more subtile see: The song is out of a movie Die große Liebe (The great Love) in the middle of the war. What it makes subtle Propaganda is the lyrics Davon geht die Welt nicht unter (The world wont crumble because of this). In the context with the wounded soldiers its pretty obvious.--Tresckow 12:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Has anyone noted the currently forbidden Horst Wessel Song or Deutschland Uber Alles? I know they're obvious, but it always pays to spot the obvious.  Utgard Loki 17:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yep to both, the Horst Wessel Lied was referred to twice above, and Deutschland Über Alles is in fact the most famous (or notorious) version of the Deutschlandlied. ---Sluzzelin talk  17:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As an illustration (again on the music bit, sorry), my mother still occasionally sings a nazi soldier's song. She was in her twenties at the time, so fully aware they were 'bad songs'. But they were just too catchy. There's perfect propaganda - even having your enemies join in your songs. Note, though that my mother lived in Heerlen, at the German border, and therefore grew up with the German language and German Marks and the like (her father was even a born German, although probably for that reason strongly anti-nazi). But still. DirkvdM 19:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The Wehrmacht soldier songs were almost all of older origin. Most likely your mother sings something like Erika or Wildgänse rauschen durch die Nacht. Which have no nazi content.--Tresckow 20:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I sat in a Munich beer cellar a couple of years ago with some very attentive gentlemen, all singing Wir fahren gegen Engelland. It was fun; really it was!  Clio the Muse 23:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The video you have requested is not available. DuncanHill 23:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * So I see, Duncan. I've now changed it to the song title only (We are advancing against England).  Clio the Muse 23:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm. I, on the other hand, was not far away, singing the likes of Zu Potsdam unter den Eichen (Brecht & Weill) which no doubt shows dangerously liberal inclinations... Xn4 23:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I heard you, I did, and my German friends and I responded with a rousing chorus of Der Anstatt-das-Song! From Polly Peachum, aka Clio the Muse 02:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Meanwhile, we were harmonizing completely apolitically and a cappella: "Die ganze Stadt ist wie verhext. Veronika, der Spargel wächst." ---Sluzzelin talk  00:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Anthropology question
I'm writing a piece of historical fiction set in a society which works according to a kind of primitive aristocracy, and as research I'd like to know if any such societies have been studied or documented in modern times. There's a class system - a settled farming/craftsman class and a mobile warrior class who extort taxes from them - but no real power structure. A strong man who can command a loyal group of armed followers may be able to extend his influence over numerous local communities, and thus be said to be a "king" over a wide area, but his power is entirely personal, so when he dies he is unable to pass his "kingdom" on to a son or nominated successor, the integrity of the kingdom collapses, and rule over the various individual communities within it is up for grabs for neighbouring kings or ambitious men with armed followers. Is there a term for this kind of society, and can anyone recommend any books that study such? --Nicknack009 22:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Nicknack, I personally know of no anthropological studies touching on this subject, or if there is a specific name for the forms of society and rulership that you have described here, but in historical terms I think you may have to go right back to the formation of the early Barbarian kingdoms to discover what you need. I would suggest that you might care to examine the particular case of the Huns, especially during the period of Attila, perhaps the prefect example of the rise and fall of purely 'personal' power.  The Hun Empire simply imploded on his sudden death in 453AD.  If this is indeed what you are after please let me know and I will make some reading suggestions.  Clio the Muse 22:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What you describe is somewhere between Alpha (biology) and the way some of our remoter Anglo-Saxon ancestors dealt with kingship, giving the crown to the best-equipped member of the royal family, rather than simply to the king's senior male heir. By definition, we lack information on how these things were done in pre-history, but primogeniture was well-known to the Ancient Greeks. There must have been a point at which the animal way of managing these things generally gave way to the various systems of inheritance which we know were normal from the Middle Ages onwards. Xn4 02:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Trial by ordeal has a bad habit of leaving your best candidate maimed or, in the days before antibiotics, fatally wounded. Systematic methods are useful but rely upon legal codes.  I'm interested in any suggestion that the early Anglo-Saxons battled it out, as I only know of their working by a gift giving exercise.  The better candidate was the one with the better retainers, and that came from giving out gifts, and that came from taking prizes from others.  Generally, the contenders wouldn't fight unless they believed that they had to.  (It's a big thing in literature for them to fight, but it's an exception and "evil" when it occurs in the sagas.  Whether we're looking at Volsungssaga or Egilssaga or the fragments we have, it always seems that these big fights are family feuds rather than contests for tribal leadership.)  Geogre 03:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe the article on warlord can give you some more food for thought, all the way to the present day. ---Sluzzelin talk  07:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the suggestions - my "kings" certainly could be considered warlords, and Attila's empire is a particularly large and successful example of the kind of kingdom I'm thinking of. --Nicknack009 07:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)