Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 December 11

= December 11 =

Emancipation laws in Texas
How old do you have to be to move out in Texas?

63.149.173.1 (talk) 01:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Generally, as Age of emancipation states, you need to be of legal age for the jurisdiction. According to this external site,, you are emancipated at the age of 18 in Texas and can live apart from your parents then. The site also states that you can petition the courts for emancipation as young as 16, but only in specific circumstances. I cannot vouch for this information and it is not legal advice. Bielle (talk) 02:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

International Literary 1992-2007 Prize winner or nominees
Hi there, I like to know which fiction books, that were published in 1992-2007, internationally, were the winner or nominees for Giller, Pulitzer, Nobel, Man Booker, National Book Award, PEN/Faulkner Award for Fiction and International IMPAC Dublin Literary Award? and which book is 250 pages long? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.116.34 (talk) 02:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Scotiabank Giller Prize, Pulitzer Prize for fiction, Nobel Prize in Literature, Man Booker Prize, National Book Award PEN/Faulkner Award for Fiction, International IMPAC Dublin Literary Award all have lists of winners from the beginnings of each award. As far as I can see, no page numbers are given in these lists, but you may be able to find information about specific editions at each book's article. I ran out of steam after finding the exact names for each award. Bielle (talk) 05:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You may have no interest in other literary prizes based outside the US (such as the James Tait Black Memorial Prize and the Hawthornden Prize), but if you're interested, a more complete list is at List of literary awards. Xn4  23:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

3 types of Hajj
I heard there are three types of Hajj. What are they? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.116.34 (talk) 02:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The answer to your question is not in our article hajj but is easily found via Google. Wareh (talk) 03:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

A Doll's House questions
I know it may sound like homework, and I have read the book, but it is not and my questions are:

a) What draws Christina Linde and Nils Krogstad back to each other?

b) Why does Christina tell Nils not to pull his letter back?

c) Why does Nora tell Torvald to go away and leave her alone after the party?

d) When she said "Yes, I beginning to actually understand everything now." What is it that she is actually beginning to understand?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.116.34 (talk) 03:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The plot synopsis in our article on A Doll's House will give you some pointers. It would be a good idea to confirm your answers by reading the relevant parts of the play, and you may also be expected to provide quotes to support your answers. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, 74.14, A Doll's House is a wonderful play, cutting, with great economy of words, through the lies and hypocrisy of a Victorian marriage. Unfortunately the Wikipedia synopsis is a little disappointing, missing some of the crucial dramatic transitions. The answers to your questions are all in Ibsen's drama, though in some cases they must be deduced from the context and, of course, one's understanding of human relationships. I urge you to read it again; for I am sure that it will all become that much clearer. Anyway, here are the answers to the specific questions you have raised.

a) Christina and Nils were forced apart by circumstances, chiefly economic circumstances, although the never ceased to be attracted one to the other. In order to support her mother and brothers, Christina entered into a loveless marriage.  Now her husband is dead she has come to town, not just to look for employment, but to make contact with the lover of her youth.  Here you should pay particular attention to their conversation in Act Three, where she tells Nils that they are both castaways clinging to the wreck of their lives, and they should join forces because they need each other.  For Nils this turns into a moment of recognition and reformation.  His former absence of morals, his opportunism and his cynicism, were all born out of disappointment and anger at having lost Christina in the first place.

b) Christina has come to understand that that the Helmers' marriage cannot continue on the basis of lies and deception, and that Nils' letter will provide the necessary catharsis.  Remember what she says to Nils: "...it's quite incredible the things I've witnessed in this house in the last twenty-four hours.  Helmer must know everything.  This unhappy secret must come out.  Those two must have the whole thing out between them.  All this secrecy and deception, it just can't go on."

c) That's easy.  He has just seen her dance the tarantella and wants to make love to her.  Christina, in view of what is on her mind, is simply not in the mood!

d) Nora's epiphany, her moment of revelation, is the key dramatic moment in the whole play.  She has been considering killing herself to avoid bringing disgrace on her husband, though all of her sacrifices and her deceptions, the way in which she obtained the loan in the first place, were solely for his benefit.  She is convinced that Torvald loves her enough to be prepared to make his own sacrifice; to reject Nils attempts at blackmail; to make things public and take the whole blame on himself.  After all, did he not just say before reading the letter "...I wish you were threatened by some terrible danger so I could risk everything, body and soul, for your sake."  But he does not; he proposes to give in, while continuing to blame Nora, even saying that she will not be allowed to bring up her own children.  Now she knows the truth.  At that point she begins to stop loving Torvald. Any residual feeling is killed by his feelings of relief when Nils returns the IOU; his assumption that things can now return as they were; that Nora will once again become his 'little song bird.' She tells him that is impossible, that she has been treated for too long as a plaything, living in a Doll's House. In those crucial moments she growns up and beyond Torvald and their sham marriage, breaking the confines and restrictions of her Doll's House forever. She is free. Clio the Muse (talk) 00:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Buchner and atheism
In Act Three Scene One of Danton's Death Thomas Payne says "Mark this, Anaxagoros:why do I suffer? That is the rock of atheism. The tiniest spasm of pain, be it in a single atom, and divine cretion is utterly torn asunder." Does this passage provide a clue to Buchner's own thinking on the subject, and is there some deeper underpinnings involved here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter T Green (talk • contribs) 12:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The theoretical argument he is referencing is the problem of pain. Problem of evil is a good place to start.--droptone (talk) 15:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Take a step or two back, Peter, and you will find a clue. Payne's reference to Spinoza calls to mind Büchner's own commentary on the work of the philosopher, particularly his proposition that God exists necessarily; for if we think God, then God must exist. To this contention, taken from Spinoza's belief in the primacy of mind, Büchner says 'But what compels us to think an entity that can only be thought of as a being?', which he follows shortly after with this thought;

''If one accepts the definition of God, then one must admit the existence of God. But what justifies us in making this definition?''

Reason?

It knows imperfections.

Feeling?

It knows pain.

Pain, the phenomena of pain and suffering, is central to Büchner. It is through pain that Lenz achieves his most mystical experience; through pain that Lena recognises the route to redemption. It is, for Büchner, through pain that one enters into God. Clio the Muse (talk) 01:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * (Just a note: the argument that god must exist because we can imagine a definition of god is called the ontological argument. You have to accept certain things about the notion of ideal types for it to make any sense. Personally I think research by cognitive science as to how human beings categorize the world pretty much dispels the idea of ontologically existing ideal types, and thus makes this entire argument seem like something of a philosophical oddity, but that's just me, and I'm no philosopher.) --24.147.86.187 (talk) 16:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

European explorers
My 3rd grader is doing a project on Francisco Gordillo. We have searched everywhere and can find virtually nothing on him. We need to know the year born, year died and some facts about him. All that i can find is that he was sent from Spain in 1521. We are supposed to also find a picture of him. Please refer me to somewhere in which I can find some info on him. Thank you!

katie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.38.102.101 (talk) 14:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a really obscure explorer for a third-grade project. Ah well...if you can find some histories of the Carolinas, there might be some info there. He was sent by Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon, so look for info about him as well. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Like Adam said, Francisco Gordillo was a lieutenant of Lucas Vázquez de Ayllón, and his 1921 1521 exploration of the Carolina coast originated not in Spain, but in Santo Domingo. The Spanish weren't really big on keeping records at the time, so since he was a mere sea captain and slaver - not someone of any power or money - it's unlikely that much more information exists.  Certainly not a contemporary picture. FiggyBee (talk) 16:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Wasn't the Carolina coast pretty well explored before 1921? Edison (talk) 17:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Not by the Santo Domingans -SandyJax (talk) 22:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * What's 400 years between friends? FiggyBee (talk) 17:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Following the expeditions of Hernan Cortez and Alonso Álvarez de Pineda, Lucas Vázquez de Ayllón an oidor (superior judge) at Santo Domingo decided to try his own luck at grabbing some wealth from the New World, and dispatched one Francisco Gordillo in a single small caravel to explore the east coast of Florida. Enroute, and in the Bahamas, Gordillo ran across another caravel, captained by Pedro de Queros and outfitted by Juan Ortiz de Matienzo, another Santo Domingo judge, for the purpose of capturing Indians for slaves. The two decided to join forces and sailed for the mainland.

The expedition landed at the mouth of a large river in June of 1521 somewhere on the coast of the Carolinas which they named after St. John the Baptist&mdash;either the Cape Fear, the Santee, or the Winyah. They took formal possession of the region, then came upon a village the natives, called Chicora. They coaxed one hundred and fifty of the Indians on board ship and returned with them. When they reached Santo Domingo Ayllón was furious at what they had done, and Governor Diego Columbus ordered the natives returned to their homes, but it is doubtful that any ever made it back to Chicora. (By another account it was Ayllón who, interested in obtaining cheap labour for his sugar plantation at Puerto Plata, sent Gordillo on a slaving expedition from the outset).

Ayllón did keep one of the captives as a servant, who was baptised Francisco Chicorana and taken to Spain where he regaled the historian Peter Martyr d'Anghiera with tales of his native land. The Chicorans were white, with brown hair to their heels and governed by a giant king called Datha. The kept domesticated deer in their houses which furnished them with milk and cheese and the country abounded in pearls, gold, and silver. The Chicorans were often visited by a race of men with large inflexible tails like those of a crocodile, who needed either a chair with a hole in the seat, or to dig a hole in the ground in order to sit down and rest. Peter Martyr's account in De Orbe Novo (1525), in which he included this passage for those who would doubt Francisco Chicorana's account: "Each may accept or reject my account as he chooses. Envy is a plague natural to the human race, always seeking to depreciate and to search for weeds in another's garden. . . . This pest afflicts the foolish, or persons devoid of literary culture, who live useless lives like cumberers of the earth." This tale, told by Francisco Chicorana most likely because he wanted to pique the interest of the Spaniards and be taken home, would lure further Spanish (including Queros again 1525 and Ayllón himself in 1526) and French expeditions to the area in search of this non-existent wealth of Chicora.

References:
 * Bolton, H. E. (1921). The Spanish borderlands: a chronicle of old Florida and the Southwest. The Chronicles of America series, v. 23. New Haven [Conn.]: Yale University Press. — Gordillo appears in Chapter 1.
 * Milanich, J. T., & Hudson, C. M. (1993). Hernando de Soto and the Indians of Florida. The Ripley P. Bullen series. Gainesville: University Press of Florida.
 * Allen, J. L. (1997) North American Exploration: A New World Disclosed. Vol. 1. pp. 252-3.
 * Bourne, E. G. (1904). Spain in America 1450-1580. New York: Barnes & Noble. pp. 138-9. — Gordillo appears in Chapter 10.

Future imperfect
Do we know George Orwell's opinion on the novels We and Brave New World, possible sources of inspiration for Nineteen Eighty Four? Jersey Lil (talk) 18:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but from the article on Nineteen Eighty-Four, it looks like you could find the answer by reading: . --M @ r ē ino 20:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Curiously enough, Aldous Huxley taught George Orwell at Eton. Undoubtedly, Brave New World was among the sparks which ignited Nineteen Eighty-Four, though the latter perhaps gives us a more biting dystopia. From memory, I believe Orwell admired Brave New World but didn't publish any thoughts on it. I may be wrong. We know that Orwell began to write Nineteen Eighty-Four at about the end of 1945, which was also when he first read Yevgeny Zamyatin's We (in the French translation, Nous autres, I believe). He wrote an article on We for Tribune which was published in its issue dated 4 January 1946 and is online here. (Also, don't miss the fact that We is recognized as one of the inspirations of Brave New World.) Xn4  22:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It should be noted that Brave New World is quite different than Nineteen Eighty Four. The former is about biology and state control; the latter is more about information and state control. Quite different focuses. The combination of the two is quite a wonderful dystopic idea of two things at the core of the 21st century techno-social world. Actually, I think Francis Fukuyama argues that in Our Posthuman Future, now that I think about it. Now I feel like a hack. --24.147.86.187 (talk) 02:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Art and urban regeneration...
Just wondering how effective people think community projects organised by art galleries are at inciting social change and/or urban regeneration? whether making people more 'cultured' will actually help to reduce crime, unemployment etc rates? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.39.226.42 (talk) 19:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Making people cultured is certainly a worthy goal, but discussion of the economic impact of the arts usually uses other methods than looking into people's souls. See Google: arts economic impact.  A lot of this has been inspired by the work of Richard Florida.  Wareh (talk) 19:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally I'm of the opinion that people should be enabled and educated to be successful wage earners before being "cultured" by some sort of bourgeois Western standard is going to make a real difference in their lives. --24.147.86.187 (talk) 20:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Florida's work suggests that a thriving arts sector attracts creative professionals and corporations whose better paid staff want the amenities of the arts. This probably generates a certain number of low-paid jobs for janitors and mail-room staff from depressed urban neighborhoods but does not fundamentally improve prospects for residents of those neighborhoods.  On the contrary, a growth in creative and high-paid corporate employment leads to strong forces of gentrification that tend to drive rents up beyond what lower-skilled workers can afford and to displace those workers to more marginal locations, where their employment prospects are even fewer.  (In the United States, low-paid jobs formerly held by displaced native-born workers may be taken in these cities by immigrant workers who are willing to accept more overcrowded housing, in which several families and wage earners share a single housing unit.) Creating an "artsy" atmosphere in a low-income urban neighborhood may be directly contrary to the interests of the neighborhood's existing residents, who are likely to be displaced by young designers, architects, web designers, and their partners, drawn by the neighborhood's new reputation for hipness and being on the vanguard.  Marco polo (talk) 21:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * One of the ways of helping people to have satisfying, full lives is to ensure they are both introduced to and provided with as many keys to as many possibilities for earning, learning and playing as possible. Someone who discovers art might also be discovering a new way to earn, a new way to spend leisure time and/or a new way to play. While I would generally agree that Maslow's heirarchy pertains, art (music, literature) may be as tied into the basic levels as it, and they, are into the topmost. I wouldn't think so much of community project in an art gallery inciting change in any immediate or dramatic way, but it might well inspire change in some one or ones. Whether it is then worth the cost is a different question. Bielle (talk) 21:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that arts education is generally a good thing and should be available to all. Also, there are some urban areas where gentrification is not a threat (e.g. Gary, Indiana or East Saint Louis, Illinois).  The danger is that opening branch galleries in a depressed neighborhood of an urban area with some economic vitality (e.g. parts of Chicago's South Side, or almost any urban neighborhood in the Northeast Corridor or London) could set in motion a chain of events that might not work to the advantage of most neighborhood residents.  Marco polo (talk) 02:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * My experience is that one person's idea of "art" may be another person's idea of garbage. I've witnessed a number of community art projects in various places I've lived (including currently in the town I'm living in now) that are hideous. Instead of inspiring pride of community, or whatever, they are embarrassing and depressing to look upon every single day as I drive or walk by these gross displays of someone's twisted vision of art. Now, having said that, I have also witnessed public community art that is absolutely fantastic. What is the difference? That is a very difficult question to answer - it may just be due to different personal biases and tastes. However, I would suggest that if a group is contemplating a public art display, that they should try to get some sampling feedback from as wide a demographic cross section of the community as possible before undertaking their project. -- Saukkomies 16:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As long as it's not "art" like Tilted Arc, whose "artist" seemed to take some kind of twisted pleasure out of inconveniencing people and uglifying their environment... AnonMoos (talk) 23:46, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, better to attack Richard Serra's Tilted Arc than to attack the source of the complaints about it, namely that people had a harder time getting to lunch and back in the 40 minutes alloted for lunch from their 9-5 jobs. Never mind that it is totally unethical for employers to keep human beings chained to ridiculous time restrictions. Never mind that what should be questioned is why employers, rather than just requiring that a good job be done on time, demand actual physical presence over established durations. Of course that is beginning to change. Or the other complaint - that it attracted graffiti. Graffiti is kind of the last means of expression alotted to certain segments of society. It is not like the people control the media. And Hip Hop has been so thoroughly appropriated and commodified by corporate media that everyone thinks it is only about bling and 'ho's. Hip Hop started as a truly critical and liberating form. Where is expression supposed to go when capitalism shuts down the discourse by travesting (sp?) its forms? Well, I guess into things like Graffiti. So I know I am going to get lots of complaints about this, but the problem with Tilted Arc wasn't Tilted Arc, but the society in which Tilted Arc was installed. In that it was a brilliant piece even moreso in the demand for its removal, because it illustrated how our key prejudices work against us to keep us all more and more worried about "earning" than about creating and learning.  S a u d a d e 7  23:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yep, artists are never wrong -- only people are wrong! (Kind of the Leona Helmsley school of artistic attitudes...) AnonMoos (talk) 09:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, artists are people too. They aren't Cylons or The Borg!?  S a u d a d e 7  12:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Italian partisans
How important was the partisan movement in the liberation of Italy in 1944 and 1945? 81.129.84.43 (talk) 20:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * See Italian resistance movement, which will give you a start. It has some external links, including one to War in Italy 1943-1945: A Brutal Story by Richard Lamb (which is well reviewed in The Journal of Military History, vol. 59, No. 4 (Oct. 1995), pp. 739-740). See also Liberal and Fascist Italy: 1900-1945 (Short Oxford History of Italy) (ed. Adrian Lyttelton).  Xn4  00:12, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Lamb's book is very much worth reading. Eye-opening and hair-raising stuff. I don't have any strong recollection of Wilhelm's The Other Italy: Italian Resistance in World War II, so it can't have been that bad. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It is yet another of the enduring myths of the Second World War, much cherished by the left, that the partisans played a major part in the liberation of Italy from the Germans. They did not. The whole movement, consisting of no more than 50,000 men and women in the autumn of 1944, was badly armed, badly organised, badly trained, badly led and politically divided. In truth-an uncomfortable truth for many-more Italians fought for Mussolini and the Salo Republic than served with the partisans. In the end, in the words of one observer, "The general insurrection flared up, in practice, when there was no longer anything to rise up against." Italy, like France, was freed from without, not within. Clio the Muse (talk) 02:22, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

What are Christmas in Sweden?


I need to know the Christmas traditions of Sweden for a class project, but I need to know what they are. I cannot locate it on your website. Can you just give me some quick information on the kinds of food they eat on Christmas, what kind of clothing they wear on Christmas, how they celebrate Christmas, how their Santa Claus looks like, does their Santa Claus look like ours, what kinds of toys do they get, or do they just get the same types of toys we do, do their toys look like ours, or do they look totaly different? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.248.250.221 (talk) 21:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Christmas_worldwide —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.77.22.184 (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * also . - Nunh-huh 21:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Santa Lucia! Clio the Muse (talk) 02:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Saint Lucy's Day will give you a better view of Swedish Lucia traditions! Rgds / Mkch (talk) 22:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

You can find some pictures about the elements of Swedish Christmas traditions [here]. Their christmas present tips (julklappstips) include the usual consumerist stuff: magazine subscriptions, christmas decorations, books, electronics, jewelry, clothes, toys and games, perfumes and gift vouchers. But certainly Lucia is the most notable Swedish Christmas specialty. 84.239.133.38 (talk) 07:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't forget the grand Swedish Christmas tradition of getting totally blind stinking drunk! (being of Swedish descent I can get away with saying this). Remember that the traditional Christmas beverage in Sweden is Glögg . The biggest criticism that Swedes have about drinking gallons of Glögg during the Christmas season seems not to be the fact that it will put you under the table in a very short order, but that it has a tendency to make one drowsy instead of peppy like Akvavit or Snaps does (which are two other popular Yule-time drinks in Sweden). So raise a glass of whatever spirit you can find in the house and bellow forth a mighty "Skol!" this season! That's the "real way" to celebrate a Swedish Christmas! -- Saukkomies 16:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * (The post by Saukkomies is nonsense). I would say Christmas_worldwide has most of it. December 25:th and 26:th (and in principle also 24:th) are holidays (shops closed etc). School ends (this year) 21:th and starts probably January 7:th. /SvNH 21:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Can only agree that what Saukkomies writes is ill-informed nonsense. Over-eating is more of a typical Christmas habit than over-drinking, and the drinking habits are quite seasonal. (It's midsummer rather than Christmas that is the quite-a-lot-of-people-get-very-drunk occasion.) Glögg belongs there, especially when guests arrive or at the beginning of a Christmas, but few people will drink that much of something heated, spicy and quite sweet. Spiced aquavit and Christmas beer - (something in-between a dark ale and a porter (beer) - typically belong with the christmas buffet, but their effect tend to be overwhelmed by the food, including Christmas ham, meatballs and various sweets. What can be noted is that it is Christmas Eve, i.e. 24th of December, which is the "big day" including handing out presents. Tomas e (talk) 22:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, but SvNH and Tomas e - you're both Swedes! Of course you'd say that it was nonsense. Let's hear what someone from Denmark has to say about it, though... (wink wink) -- Saukkomies 08:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Swedish Christmas (jul) traditions start every year with celebrating the First Sunday of Advent, a day when there is usually more people in the churches than on the average Sunday. Christmas shopping in these days usually starts as early as in October (special Christmas marketing in stores used to start at First Advent, but now usually start in the middle of November or in some stores even earlier). Children usually get an Advent calendar for the days 1-24 December. Many Swedes have a candlestick for four candles, of which one is lit on First Advent, this one and the next candle on Second Advent etc. There are also usually electrical candlesticks with seven candles in the windows up until Christmas, this is often seen as a commemoration of the Jewish tradition of Christianity; Judaism was on before Christ was born. The Lucia celebration of the morning of the 13 December is also an important event, usually celebrated in every school and in many work places. A Christmas tree is taken in and decorated in the days before Christmas.


 * Christmas Eve is the traditional Christmas celebration day in Sweden, when the family comes together and eat lots of traditional foods. Most important is the ham (corresponding to the turkey eaten in the USA), but there is also herring, sausages, meatballs, salads etc at the christmas table and lots of sweets and gingerbread cookies for desert. Many people watch some TV programs which has become Christmas traditions in Sweden: The Walt Disney Christmas Show (sv:Kalle Anka och hans vänner önskar God Jul, originally aired in the USA in 1951, in Swedish TV every year since 1959) and/or The Tale About Karl-Bertil Jonsson's Christmas. Christmas presents are distributed, often by a "jultomte", which in our days looks almost exactly like the Santa Claus of English speaking countries but in older days was more like the traditional tomte of Nordic folklore. In the 19th Century, the presents were given out by the Yule Goat, but this creature is now only a decoration at Christmas.


 * At Christmas Day, the tradition is to go to church early in the morning, this cermon is called julotta. Often, you also visit friends or family members on this day (or on the next day, which also is a holliday), which you didn't got to celebrate Christmas Eve with (many families nowadays are not the traditional nucleus family due to divorces etc. and other circumstances can also be that you haven't been able to be with both the paternal and the maternal grandparents on Christmas Eve).


 * The 13th Day of Christmas is sometimes also celebrated in some way (different in different families). Traditionally, Christmas is "danced out" at the 20th Day, St. Knut's Day. On this day, the christmas tree is stripped of its decorations and thrown out. You often have a party for this too, when you eat all the remaining christmas sweets etc., much of which may have hung in the tree.


 * E.G. (talk) 08:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Another important christmas food is also the white Rice pudding which is eaten, in some cases as lunch on christmas eve, and in some cases as dinner (the tradition christmas smörgåsbord is eaten as the other meal, either as lunch or dinner) or as a part of the smörgåsbord. If rice pudding is served as a part of the smörgåsbord, it is more often than not in the form of Ris à la Malta (rice pudding with cream and orange). MiCkE 12:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Glass of Swedish must.jpg|thumb|[[Julmust]]. It's a must for Christmas!]]Swedes dont wear any special clothes for Christmas, nothing like the paper crowns British people wear, just some nice clothes like everybody else. The toys the kids in Sweden gets looks a lot like yours, I'll guess (if you take a look at a online catalog from Toy r us for example You'll probably recognise most things).In Sweden Santa (jultomten) does not climb down through chimneys during the night or put gift in stockings,  he deliver them himself on Christmas eve. The typical scenario is that the dad (or some other relative) suddenly remembers that he has to go somewhere on Christmas eve, "to buy a newspaper". After a while it suddenly knocks on the door, and Jultomten (Santa) shows up! He usually starts by asking Finns det några snälla barn här?(Are there any nice kids here?) and then start to hand out the presents and read the rhymes on packages. The rhymes should give a hint about what's in the the package, but not beeing to obvious. On radio- and TV-shows (and nowadays also on the webb) people can call in to get help from celebrities to write whitty rhymes for their presents. About the food, I think most of it is already explained by others, but I dont se that anyone has mentioned that in Sweden the julmust is a must on Christmas. In Sweden, julmust outsells Coca-Cola during the Christmas season; in fact, the consumption of Coca-Cola drops as much as 50% over Christmas.   Btw, I rekommend the film Fanny and Alexander for a glimpse of a Swedish Christmas celebration. / Elinnea (talk) 12:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, in Christmas eve, people in Sweden don´t were any special clothes, but in Saint Lucy's Day many walk in a "Luciatåg" (Luciatåg consits of many people walking toghether after each other and singing Christmas songs)where the members of the "Luciatåg" are dressed up like tomtar, "tärnor" (white clothes with glitter round waist), "stjärngosse" (white clothes with a cornet with stars) and one Sankta Lucia (white clothes, a red band round waist and a crown with lights). By the way, excuse me for my bad English. Leo Johannes (talk) 19:47, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Victorian occupations
I'm doing some research into my family history, and I've found an ancestor listed in the Belfast Street Directory for 1880. He's described as a "dealer" - but there's no indication of what he might have dealt. Anyone who is familiar with Victorian social history have any suggestions? --Nicknack009 (talk) 21:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Are there any other clues provided? Is he a family man? Young or old? Is he literate or does it look like a scribe wrote his name in? Apparently he lives in Belfast, Ireland, or was that just a central place where information was collected? Wrad (talk) 23:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Your best line is probably to check uses of the word 'dealer' in the Oxford English Dictionary for the late nineteenth century and also to look elsewhere in the 1880 Directory for Belfast. Off the top of my head, though, a 'dealer' is clearly a business man trading in something, and presumably in something not easy to specify: not a grocer or a bookseller, for instance. He may have been a merchant who bought and sold all kinds of things and who described himself as a 'dealer'. I imagine you would get a better idea by finding out more about the particular street your ancestor is listed in. If I were you, I should also look for him in the UK census for 1881. He may have lived at the same address, and if he's there, the census may give a more helpful description. Xn4  23:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I just looked at the OED and it offers nothing particularly revealing. Best thing to do would probably be to see what you can gather from the rest of his life to provide context. Wrad (talk) 00:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The street is general working-class housing, and I don't think his home is his business address. My thoughts are that either he's a general buyer and seller of whatever will make him money, or that he's a member of a specialist trade that has the conceptual monopoly on the word "dealer" - any other kind of dealer would have to state what he deals in, but anyone who's described simply as a "dealer" is assumed to be in this particular trade. No idea what that trade might be though. My subconscious keeps suggesting horses, but I can't think why I might be thinking that. Unfortunately the 1881 census for Ireland was destroyed in the 1920s during the war of independence, so I'm out of luck on that one. --Nicknack009 (talk) 00:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, and 1880 he's a grandfather, and his daughter, her husband and their two children are living with him (I know this from my great grandfather's birth cirtificate). The Street Directory is the equivalent of the phone book before phones, compiled and published annually by a local newspaper. It's online here. --Nicknack009 (talk) 00:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting directory, Nicknack009. Great pity about the loss of the 1881 census for Ireland. Certainly, the word 'dealer' was used for horse dealers (of which Ireland had a lot) but an establishment for selling horses in a working class street in Belfast sounds unlikely to me. The people who bought horses in the 1880s were gentlemen and small business men... farmers, cab-drivers, carriers, bargees, and so on. Horses were generally sold either at markets or specialist horse-fairs, by dealers based in rural areas or even by travelling gypsies. Xn4  00:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Was he 'Dell Boy' by chance?--88.109.30.101 (talk) 08:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Story of Civilization by Will Durant
I'm considering purchasing the Story Of Civization set by Will Durant, but I wanted to find out some of the pros and cons about it before. I read the wikipedia article and tried to find some reviews from Google, but i guess such an investment leads me to check here as well. Basically, I'm curious how you would rate the set in terms of accuracy, readability, value? Would you recommend it or is there some other book/set you would recommend instead? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.28.144.36 (talk) 22:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC) It is my favorite book yes! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.239.144 (talk) 00:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Accuracy? Fair. Readability?  Good.  Value?  Reasonable.  To be perfectly frank I think this style of grand synthesis just a little old fashioned.  The style, moreover, is a touch too 'folksy' for my taste.  However, I have to confess that I am a professional historian, and probably not to be trusted!  I would say, in all honesty, that it depends what you are looking for.  If it's a Cook's Tour through the ages then you could probably not do better.  Clio the Muse (talk) 02:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I kind of like The Rise of the west by William H. McNeill, which is a lot shorter (and probably cheaper to acquire) in a single volume. The trends of relativism and hyper-specialization and "identity history" in recent decades seem to have the effect of extremely strongly discouraging professional historians from attempting comparable works nowadays... AnonMoos (talk) 23:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I bought a set about 10 years ago at an estate sale. I had always wanted them because, growing up in the 70s, it seemed like they were a bookshelf-staple of every educated household. It was a nostalgia purchase really - those colorful jackets! As it turned out, they are okay light reading, but not very up to date and they have a real 60s feel to them. I got rid of my set before moving overseas and I couldn't even sell them. I have to admit that I never really read them much even when I had them. I find them good if you just want a sort of general overview, but not if you really need something to use as a reference source. Besides, we are living in a real golden-age of history writing. I wouldn't buy them again.  S a u d a d e 7  18:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Cold Chill or Holy Shiver
Hello, I have been working on a page for Cold chill but haven't been able to find a lot of info. I was informed Kant my have written some about this topic. Would anyone know what book this was from or have any other info such as why we get Cold chills? Thanks--DatDoo (talk) 22:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This has come up many times in the science desk. It is a timing issue with the nervous system.  Your mind simply translates the mistiming as a sweeping feeling of cold across the skin - often triggering an involuntary shiver. --  k a i n a w &trade; 14:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * "By the same token, a liking for the sublime in nature is only negative (whereas a liking for the beautiful is positive): it is a feeling that the imagination by its own action is depriving itself of its freedom, in being determined purposively according to a law different from that of its empirical use. The imagination thereby acquires an expansion and a might that surpasses the one it sacrifices; but the basis of this might is concealed from it; instead the imagination feels the sacrifice or deprivation and at the same time the cause to which it is being subjugated. Thus any spectator who beholds massive mountains climbing skyward, deep gorges with raging streams in them, wastelands lying in deep shadow and inviting melancholy meditation, and so on is indeed seized by amazement bordering on terror, by horror and a sacred thrill; but, since he knows he is safe, this is not actual fear: it is merely our attempt to incur it with our imagination, in order that we may feel that very power's might and connect the mental agitation this arouses with the mind's state of rest. Kant, I., & Pluhar, W. S. trans. (1987). Critique of judgment. Indianapolis, Ind: Hackett Pub. p. 129."I'm fairly certain that the translator writes 'sacred thrill' for heiliger schauer, as the index lists heiliger schauer and leads to the above passage.&mdash;eric 15:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for answering that eric. I told him/her about Kant, but I am in Paris and have no access to my books and couldn't remember where exactly it was.  S a u d a d e 7  18:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Heiliger Schauer could also be translated as Holy Shiver.--Tresckow (talk) 01:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)