Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 December 2

= December 2 =

Can someone write me some poetry
for a girl that I can pretend I wrote. her name is Victoria/Vicki/Vic. Brown hair, blue eyes, cute (hmmm....). We're not together though I want us to be.

thx Bobble hobble dobble
 * Sorry, bud, you're out of luck, at least with me. Depending on how old she is, you might be in just as good shape if you were straightforward with her or wrote it yourself. I believe there are other forums on the internet where people could help you better with your work. The Evil Spartan 00:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

You would be much better off looking at sites that have poetry...http://www.lovepoemsandquotes.com/ It needn't specifically use the name Victoria though, what matters is that you are expressing what you think to her - be it through carefully selecting some wonderfully worded classics or by your own attempts. Either way good luck ny156uk 00:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I love so much I may be sicky,
 * Please don't be too picky, Vicki.

How do I love thee, Vicki-wiki?
 * More than Minnie loves her Mickey!

Bobbie, speak from your heart, and in your own words. Girls can detect insincerity like a shark detects blood. Believe me! (PS. I did not pen the above ode!!!) Clio the Muse 00:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Girls love insincerity! Here's my contribution. Use it as you see fit:

My dear little Vicki I think you're just kicky

To rhyme is so tricky When you're just a thicky

So don't say I'm icky Or I make you sicky

If I give you a hickie Or just a small licky.

Hmmm. Or maybe you could just memorize She Walks in Beauty instead. Of course, memorizing that took me quite a while, but your younger braincells might make short work of it. Matt Deres 00:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * If you cannot write your own poetry, quote a famous poet and then explain how it makes you feel. It worked for Clinton - using Whitman to win the favor of many women. -- k a i n a w &trade; 03:25, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * For some reason I am suddenly reminded of this bit from the opening monologue from Bull Durham: "You see, there's a certain amount of life wisdom I give these boys. I can expand their minds. Sometimes when I've got a ballplayer alone, I'll just read Emily Dickinson or Walt Whitman to him, and the guys are so sweet, they always stay and listen. &mdash; 'Course, a guy'll listen to anything if he thinks it's foreplay." --Anon, 11:18 UTC, Dec. 2, 2007.


 * Hey vicky, your so so icky, just the thought of being around you makes me oh so sickyyyy. lol you could do that though i dont think it will work. Esskater 11 04:21, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * If you want to claims someone else's amateur work as you own, you could always use this. Rockpock  e  t  07:36, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Heed some of the advice given to you above, and beware, young Christian: Though she may be willing to lie to herself, your Roxane will eventually "see through all the generous counterfeit". And the young cadet's exit comes far too soon. ---Sluzzelin talk  15:27, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * "Oh my Victoria
 * How I adore yuh
 * Come my dear Vicky
 * Please don't be tricky
 * Look at me Vi,
 * I'm down on one knee
 * Look into my blue eyes
 * And see my poetic lies!"


 * Well, what did you really expect. Richard Avery 16:03, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Email this thread to her to indicate the depth of your infatuation, the sincerity of your love, the degree of your modesty, and the total loss of your common sense. (joke)--Eriastrum 17:34, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If it needn't be passed off as original, you might find some inspiration in the lyrics of Tiny Tim. -- Deborahjay 23:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I can't believe no one has gone with the obvious "poem": Oh Vicki, you're so fine/ You're so fine you blow my mind/ Hey Vicki! Though she's probably heard that one before. (In seriousness, I agree with the others: find a poem which summarizes your feelings for her and use that. - just don't try to claim authorship. She will find out, and it won't end well for you.) -- 23:59, 3 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.104.112.21 (talk)
 * I wouldn't have suggested that myself. I understood 'Hey Mickey' was a song written by a woman in love with a gay man. Steewi 00:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I wanted to write a poem for you Vicky,

But I couldn't, so I asked on a Wiki

This poem isn't great, but I guess you can't be picky.

Although it would be a whole lot better if the last line rhymed at all. --Monorail Cat 01:45, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The Potato and France
In the potato article, it says that the potato was unpopular in France while gaining popularity in Europe, but doesn't specify why. My Google research has lead to 2 reasons:


 * The French likened the potato plant to looking similar to a type of poisonous nightshade.
 * The French thought the potato was beneath them as a peasant food

Is there a predominant reason for the unpopularity? I know the tomato was also likened as a poisonous type of nightshade and was unpopular in Britain for a while because of it. I would've thought that that would take precedence to class stature, but of course, I wouldn't know any better.

Was it a tight balance of the 2 reasons or did one lead the trend to the other? --76.214.203.95 11:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Possible explanations: it is not mentionned in the bible and it grows realy easely so it might be the "plant of the devil", this might be further reinforced by its growing underground. There were rumours that it caused illness and was only used to feed livestock. It was a completely unknown plant and at first people didn't know what to call it. It was first called truffle or cartuffle before it became patate and earth apple both terms that are still used today the first considered more lower class.
 * There's the famous story of Parmentier's efforts to make the consumption of potatoes more widespread in France at the end of the 18th Century (about 2 centuries after it was first introduced) after he had come back from captivity in Prussia where he first ate the plant. He offered to Louis XVI the flowering plant and organised a banquet where all the meals had potatoe as a base ingredient thus popularizing it with the courtiers and the fashion of eating the tubercule raining down to the lower classes. He then planted a whole field of potatoes in Paris and had it guarded by soldiers. The rumour spread in the starving city that they were guarding a valuable plant and interest grew. Parmentier then kept the guards during the day and withdrew them at night. All the potatoes were gone in a matter of days! The king remarked to him then: "France will thank you one day for having invented the poor man's bread". Keria 12:21, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Catholics under Elizabeth
I saw and enjoyed Elizabeth the Golden Age. I have two questions. Is it historically accurate? (I can't really believe that Elizabeth Carried on with Raleigh in the manner depicted!) Second, and more generally, if Catholics and Catholicism were so suspect how did people of this religion fare under the rule of Elizabeth? 86.148.38.116 14:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * See Roman Catholicism in Great Britain. Mary I of England briefly reintroduced Catholicism, but a combination of Elizabeth's want of power, independence from Rome, and wars with the Catholic French and Spanish made the religion deeply unpopular in her court, leading to the passage of the Elizabethan Religious Settlement - attending Anglican services became compulsory (although a blind eye was turned to Catholics who publicly pretended to be Anglican, heresy (as defined by the Revival of the Heresy Acts) ceased to be a crime, and the fine was 12 pence per week - relatively minor compared to the death penalty that awaited Catholics by the end of her reign). Probably the last straw was the Rising of the North (and in particular, Pope Pius V's support of the revolution through the Regnans in Excelsis), which made the term "Catholic" effectively synonymous with "traitor" in Britain. The few people who remained Catholic went underground; the proliferation of so-called "priest holes" in Nicholas Owen's stately homes is testament to this, as is the sheer list of Catholic martyrs of the English Reformation, including the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales and the Eighty-five martyrs of England and Wales. Laïka  14:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The answer to your first question is one I have given before, 86.148; it is best not to look for accuracy in historical drama of this kind. There are too many absurdities to mention in detail; the burning Armada, being one, and the Queen still entertaining the prospect of marriage while in her fifties, being another. Enjoy the movie; forget the history.

As far as the Catholicism question is concerned, to begin with the situation was fairly fluid, with patterns of conformity and dissent dictated as much by local considerations as by national policy. It was quite possible for people to be Catholic in some aspects of their lives, though not in others; conformist and non-conformist at one and the same time. This flexibility gave way to more rigid attitudes in 1571, by which time the Church of England had given firm expression to its Protestant doctrine in the Thirty-Nine Articles, while the Council of Trent gave a far stricter definition of what it meant to be a Catholic, forbidding any kind of participation in heretical services. At that point the whole question moves from one of faith to one of politics: the conflict and contradiction between loyalty to one's faith and loyalty to one's nation. Even so, it is important not to place too much weight on Pius V's Regnans in Excelsis, declaring Elizabeth to be a pretender, as most English Catholics made open and sincere declarations of loyalty to the crown.

Still, for obvious reasons, it made the general position of recusants that much more problematic. The government became more vigilant, though action against priests was restricted to the new cohort emerging from Douai College, and not the surviving native or Marian priests, who were allowed to continue with minimum interference. In 1585 all priests ordained abroad and returning to England were declared guilty of high treason, and those who helped them of a felony. At the same time the pressure of the recusants became more systematic. It was possible for ordinary people to remain Catholic-and a great many did-though the financial penalties for doing so became ever more burdensome. By the end of Elizabeth's reign in 1603, while it is difficult to give precise figures, Catholics comprised no more than about 2% of the total population in England, more numerous in some places than in others. The most secure were the upper class and noble Catholics, those who could afford to pay the recusancy fines. But the faith survived also among sections of the working population. They survived, with difficulty, yes, but without the wholesale persecution that was the fate of religious minorities on the Continent. Clio the Muse 01:59, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * An enjoyable film, despite its complete disregard for historical or geographical accuracy. What can you do but admire the chutzpah when Eilean Donan appears with a caption saying "Fotheringay Castle"? Gdr 12:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Ratification of international treaties by France
The French National Assembly and Senate have autorized ratification of the London Agreement (a patent law treaty signed in 2000). However, the French government has not yet "deposited the instrument of ratification". Can we technically already say that the London Agreement has been ratified by France? (Note that I am not sure whether the terms actually matter much since the Agreement will only enter into force after the deposit of the instruments of ratification by France, but I am just wondering whether the present previous wording in the Wikipedia article is was legally accurate). Any idea? Thanks. --Edcolins 15:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I reworded the article for now, to avoid the problem. See also Talk:London Agreement (2000). Ideas are still welcome. --Edcolins 19:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use
Is it easy for a website with advertisements to claim fair use? I heard of a case where a website managed, but is that just a once off thing or is that likely to happen?--Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs) 15:50, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Claim fair use of what? -- k a i n a w &trade; 18:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, images--193.120.116.179 18:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * To start, this depends on the applicable jurisdiction(s), which are not always easy to determine for websites. Different countries have drastically different fair use criteria. Assuming that U.S. federal law applies, whether fair use can be rightfully claimed is a difficult balance between several factors that must be considered, including "the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes". However, according to our article Fair use, this factor has recently been deemphasized in some Circuits since many, if not most, secondary uses seek at least some measure of commercial gain from their use. I think it is fair to say that it is probably not easy if the use of the copyrighted material is for blatantly commercial purposes, but if, for example, a for-profit website devoted to art sells posters, but also, as a public service, alerts its visitors to exhibitions in musea, and then uses a low-resolution copy of the museum poster to illustrate such an alert, one may imagine they might be successful in making the case that this constitutes fair use. --Lambiam 19:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Switzerland military
I'm told that all Swiss citizens must serve one year in the military before going to college. Is this true? Thank you, wsc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.109.242 (talk) 16:52, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Military service is only obligatory for Swiss males, who have to serve for at least 260 days in the armed forces; conscripts receive 18 weeks of mandatory training, followed by seven 3-week intermittent recalls for training over the next 10 years. See also our article Military of Switzerland. I can find no information suggesting that a male would not be admitted to university before having fulfilled this obligation; somehow I doubt that there is such a restriction. --Lambiam 18:09, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * No, there is no connection whatsoever between military service and the access to higher education in Switzerland. Sandstein 20:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you prove that, Sandstein? It seems to me that if military service is mandatory, one who does not fulfill the military obligation would not be able to go to university without first serving his prison sentence for failing to report for duty.  --M @ r ē ino 20:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * In theory, this is the case. In practice, prison sentences (typically of three months) for not doing military service are rare. Most college students who do not want to serve in the army are somehow able to get a medical exemption or do an alternative civil service. What I meant that there is no connection in law between education and military service. Sandstein 20:29, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that service in the Swiss Army would be entirely different from American or British service. There is absolutely no threat of being sent abroad. About how many Swiss soldiers have been killed in action in the last 150 years? Probably not many. Wrad 20:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * A small Swiss force did go abroad not so many months ago, y'know, though I gather there was an apology the next morning. (A patrol invaded Liechtenstein by mistake, in the dark iirc.)  —Tamfang (talk) 08:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Rendition by US Authorities (non terrorism cases)
I have read today in the UK Sunday Times a report from a current legal case. It would appear that the American government has for the first time made it clear in a British court that the rendition law applies to anyone, British or otherwise, suspected of a crime. Rendition, or kidnapping, dates back to 19th-century bounty hunting and Washington believes it is still legitimate. During a hearing last month Lord Justice Moses, one of the Court of Appeal judges, asked Alun Jones QC, representing the US government, about its treatment of Gavin, Tollman’s nephew. Gavin Tollman was the subject of an attempted abduction during a visit to Canada in 2005. Jones replied that it was acceptable under American law to kidnap people if they were wanted for offences in America. “The United States does have a view about procuring people to its own shores which is not shared,” he said. He said that if a person was kidnapped by the US authorities in another country and was brought back to face charges in America, no US court could rule that the abduction was illegal and free him: “If you kidnap a person outside the United States and you bring him there, the court has no jurisdiction to refuse — it goes back to bounty hunting days in the 1860s.”

Can anyone enlighten me on this subject? I would have thought that such actions would be unconstitutional on many levels, but the US legal system is rarely clear and concise!83.148.88.37 19:06, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm no expert but I am an American. From what I can gather, it comes down to the fact that George W. Bush is "The Decider". Therefore, laws, morals, ethics, diplomacy and rights only exist if Bush decides they exist. I don't know why this is hard to understand! It isn't relative, it's ABSOLUTE!


 * For my part though I hope someday G.W. Bush and his cronies come to France. If only the French had caught Kissinger! Then, the International War Crime Tribunal! I am ever ashamed of my country and the things it has done. For a good read, check out Harold Pinter's Nobel acceptance speech (Google it, it's online). It made me cry. Sa<font color="#ff1000">u<font color="#ff4000">d<font color="#ff6000">a d e 7  23:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * We have in fact an article on Harold Pinter's Nobel Lecture: Art, Truth & Politics. The text of the speech itself can be found here. --Lambiam 20:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The article referred to by the questioner is - US says it has right to kidnap British citizens 86.21.74.40 23:19, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Basically, my understanding is that in [parts of?] the US, you can arrest someone and bring them to court even if you're not a formal law enforcement officer - as long as there's a warrant, it's legitimate. As this is basically a form of arrest, which by definition is legal, the courts don't consider it kidnap or unlawful detention or the like. Doing it overseas is substantially more, uh, legally exotic, but as far as the courts are concerned, it's legal to them. If you break local law in doing it, that's your own problem, but the US court won't consider that a violation. (Usual disclaimers, mainly that I read about this years ago, apply) Shimgray | talk | 01:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the protections in the Constitution do not apply to people who are neither citizens nor residents of the United States. The Bush administration has seized upon this constitutional loophole, and the rest of the world is at its mercy.  Marco polo 17:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, the Bush administration has claimed that even citizens' rights can be suspended if the U.S. government decides (without judicial review) that a citizen is an enemy combatant. The Bush administration has avoided judicial tests of this policy. Absent a judicial ruling against this policy, the Constitution's protections apply only to U.S. citizens and (to a lesser extent) non-citizen residents who happen to have the approval of the current government. Marco polo 17:35, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I wish people wouldn't throw out uninformed answers without any background knowledge or research. Anyway, the lawyer for the U.S. cited the case United States v. Alvarez-Machain. That case, and Ker v. People of State of Illinois before it, say getting forcibly abducted from one jurisdiction to another does not mean you get to have the charges thrown out. It does not mean that this kind of abduction is itself legal. If person X kidnaps person Y from the UK to face charges in the US, person Y can't get the charges thrown out, but he could press kidnapping charges against person X in the UK or US. -- Mwalcoff 00:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Problems in the aboriginal communities??
I would like to find a few articles on "problems in the aboriginal community" in Canada for my project. I need information and I need it fast. It would be nice to find a few articles on these topics:

thank you for your time (Deathmouse 19:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC))
 * sucide rates
 * dirty water
 * drugs
 * gangs or violent crimes

Try Ontario Minamata disease for your second topic. Matt Deres 22:54, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I would suggest using Google and typing into the search box each of the topics you have listed above, plus the term "First Nations", the Canadian term for Canada's aboriginal peoples. Marco polo 17:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Victimization and offending among the Aboriginal population in Canada (a Statistics Canada report) states that Aboriginal Canadians are roughly 10 times more likely to be accused of murder than a non-indigenous Canadian, and that nine-tenths of Aboriginal people in Canadian prisons require treatment for substance abuse (although it neglects to provide a comparable figure with non-Aboriginal people). Laïka  19:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Franco and the fugitives
Is it true that General Franco provided a refuge for fleeing Nazis after World War Two?217.43.9.186 20:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, is the short answer; for Nazis and Fascists of all sorts. According to Paul Preston, a specialist in Spanish history and biographer of Francisco Franco, many were given asylum and a fresh identity in Spain at the end of the war.  Franco himself connived at the escape of Leon Degrelle, the Belgian Fascist leader and SS general.  Other major figures who obtained a safe haven in Spain included Otto Skorzeny and Louis Darquier de Pellepoix, head of Vichy's Jewish Agency, and instrumental in the deportation of many people to Auschwitz.  In May 1946 it was estimated by a sub-committee set up by the United Nations Security Council that between 2-3000 German Nazi officials, agents and war criminals were living in Spain, along with several thousand members of the Vichy Milice.  Clio the Muse 00:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Baghdad in Afghanistan?
Is there a place called Baghdad in Afghanistan? It seems there is according to. I could not find it myself. If it exists, is it notable enough to have its own article? Baghdad, Afghanistan

Thank you for reading.

Regards, --Kushalt 20:34, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The article's title is incorrect and should read "Detained Nepalis in Iraq to be released soon" The Nepalis worked and were held as detainees in Baghdad, Iraq. ---Sluzzelin talk  20:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. --Kushalt 21:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Nevertheless, there is such a place:, . This is also confirmed by the [NGA GEOnet Names Server, which classifies it as a "populated place". Google maps also knows a "Baghdad, Afghanistan", but the satellite images show nothing suggesting human habitation. --[[User talk:Lambiam|Lambiam]] 21:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting. Actually, its my fault for not researching thoroughly enough. Google Earth did show Baghdad, Vardak Afghanistan. The result is not in a very high resolution. However, the fact that it exists is all that matters at the moment.

Thank you all very much. (Further comments are always welcome.) --Kushalt 21:54, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This may not be so surprising, if you remember that "Baghdad" is a Persian word (or compound word), and Pashto and Dari are both forms of Persian. There are probably numerous cities of the same name. Adam Bishop 06:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There are also, apparently, Baghdads in Egypt, Iran and Pakistan, while the NGA NGS also lists a Baghdad in Syria. --Lambiam 08:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

So a typo actually helped me learn something. Great! --Kushalt 22:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)