Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 June 11

= June 11 =

Presidential inauguration and the Cabinet
What happens to the cabinet when a new President is inaugurated in the U.S.?

For example, hypothetically speaking, if Hillary Clinton was elected in 2008, would Bush's cabinet remain in their posts until she had nominated her own and had them approved by the Senate? Or would they all resign leaving her without a cabinet, and the majority of the Presidential Line of Succession vacant until she had got her own cabinet approved?

SamUK 16:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The old bums go out. The new bums are "acting" until the Senate votes on them, I believe.  &mdash;Tamfang 18:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

state government
is Morris Iemma the leader of the labor party

It helps to say which state and Labour party you are referring to, the answer is in here: Morris Iemma Mhicaoidh 03:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

state government (2)
who is the leader of the liberal party61.68.1.146 03:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia's search function is good on these subjects, young students, try Leader of the New South Wales Liberal Party (or Liberal Party of Australia for Federal Government)   Mhicaoidh 03:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Privacy + Journalism
Should tighter rules be introduced to limit journalists' intrusions into privacy? Thoughts? 137.166.4.130 03:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)Kate. Aus

What is a liberal —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User: (talk • contribs) – Please sign your posts!


 * This is not the place for discussion or opinion, your teacher wants you to develop research skills (see question above for how easy it can be) and to develop your own thoughts on the matter. Mhicaoidh 03:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

This question was actually brought up by a journo friend, who debated with me for quite some time before we agreed to disagree. Personally, I think, practically speaking, it would be difficult to implement a set of 'rules' to limit journalist’s intrusion into private lives. As long as there are publishing houses willing to print intrusive stories and photographs - intrusive journalism will continue to exist. Further, even if rules were put in place to limit journalists’ intrusion into private lives, the money made from the sales of such stories will generally surpass any fine or penalty. I was just curious as to other opinions regarding the matter. I am long out of school, thanks very much. 137.166.4.130 03:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)Kate. Aus
 * You appear to mean something specific by "intrusions." There are guards in most western nations against a journalist infringing upon the privacy of private individuals, but public figures have enormously different rights.  Additionally, in the US, there is expectation of privacy.  If, for example, you are walking down the street, you are a public figure, and your picture can be taken.  If you are in your house, your picture cannot be taken (unless you're a public figure, more or less).  As far as reporting the facts about my life or yours, there is also a threshold of whether or not you have a reasonable expectation that your actions will not be portrayed or not.  If you steal money from the city, there is every reason to suppose that your actions will be exposed.  If you are kicking your dog, maybe not.  You seem to be asking about stories written about the personal lives of public figures.  The limiting factor there is going to be the free market, but, additionally, there can be legal restrictions.  It depends upon where you are.  Geogre 04:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Kate.Aus, your id, IP and the phrase "what is a liberal" below your question seemed an extension of those questions above which were from students. But as I understand it the Ref Desk isnt the place for opinions or discussion Mhicaoidh 05:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Back to the question, it depends which country you are asking about. Some countries have very strong privacy laws - and some have state-controlled press. --Dweller 09:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Liberal

 *  Question extracted from the above thread and given a heading. --Lambiam Talk  07:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC) 

What is a liberal —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User: (talk • contribs) – Please sign your posts!


 * The term "Liberal" as an indication of a philosophical or political view has very different meanings depending on where and when it is used by whom; to summarize this here would be a major undertaking. Fortunately, this has already been done in our article on Liberalism. Please read that article and also follow the links in the article that may be relevant to you, such as American liberalism, and come back here with any questions that may be left (or new questions that may have occurred to you). --Lambiam Talk  07:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In its most universal sense, it means "toward freedom." That's about it.  Now, those things that are "toward freedom" can be those things that believe that the current world needs to be improved ("liberal" in the US sense) or that things need to be more anarchic (the "liberal economics" meaning).  Otherwise, the way the term is used is so various as to be impossible to define.  The way that conservatives in the US use the term, it seems to mean merely "not liked" and nothing else.  (Ann Coulter says that liberals hate America, God, and heterosexual couplings.  I've always wondered who those people were, as they seem to be pretty unlikely from her description.)  Utgard Loki 12:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * For a good definition of a modern American liberal, see John F. Kennedy's speech "A Liberal Definition," accepting the nomination of the Liberal Party of New York on September 14, 1960.

Coup d'etat
I want to know which country in the world is the most country which hosted the coup d'etat? And how many times?


 * Does anyone want to work this out from our list of coups d'état and coup attempts?--Shantavira|feed me 07:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Mexico had nine coups (not counting failed attempts), and so had Brazil. But if you inspect the long list at List of coups d'état and coup attempts more closely, you find one coup d'etat in Goguryeo, one for Silla, five involving Goryeo, four more mentioning Joseon, and two in South Korea. But in some sense these are all Korea. So an issue is: when do you consider two political entities at different moments in time, and not necessarily occupying quite the same territory (with Poland and the Roman Empire as extreme examples of stately Wanderlust), instances of the same "country"? Some other issues are where to draw the boundary between a coup and a civil war, and where that between a failed attempt and a very briefly successful coup. In any case, if we are allowed to add the Korean ones up: 1 + 1 + 5 + 4 + 2 = 13, Korea may emerge as the coup champion of the world. --Lambiam Talk  08:51, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * According to CNN.com "There have been 17 coups in Thailand since World War II" . Our article 2006 Thai coup d'état   lists 19 "Coups, Rebellions, and Revolutions" and three "Popular Revolts"   Mhicaoidh 09:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There have been 19 coups/coup attempts in Comoros since independence in 1975. Ripberger 06:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In what sense is Poland a successor to the Roman Empire? Or did Lambiam mean something else?  &mdash;Tamfang 06:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I meant something else. Both Poland and the Roman Empire did not occupy a steady place on the map. As the first sentence of our History of Poland article states: Over the past millennium, the territory ruled by Poland has shifted and varied greatly. Of the major cities in Poland, Kraków has perhaps been most consistently part of Poland during its existence. Even if you equate the Roman Empire with the West Roman Empire, you can view Dalmatia under Julius Nepos as the last spark of the extinguishing fire. If you take the more usual position that the East Roman Empire, after the collapse of the West Roman Empire, was the sole remaining successor and continuation of the Roman Empire, by the end its territory was what once was considered only an outpost of the Empire. --Lambiam Talk  09:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah. For Rome and Armenia it's possible to point to two dates at which the same state occupied non-overlapping territories.  I don't think that's true of Poland, not that it matters.  &mdash;Tamfang 23:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

the coo...
"On yonder hill there stood a coo, it's no there noo, it must've shifted" all the searches i have done, credit this to William Mcgonagall, but i always thought it was spike milligan wot wrote it am i wrong? (please not, as it involves a rather heated debate with a work colleauge, who will NOT let it go if i'm wrong!) Perry-mankster 10:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I cannot give you a precise reference, Perry, but that sounds much more like Spike Milligan than William Topaz McGonagall. As far as I am aware, most of McGonagall's 'poetry' was written in standard English, along the lines of Alas! Lord and Lady Dalhousie are dead and buried at last,/which causes many people to feel a little downcast....  The absurd 'Scotticisms' (coo, noo) suggest a deliberate parody, based on a misunderstanding; and as such conjure up the character of 'McGoonagall' from, of course, the Goon Show!  You might find your 'poem' in a search through Goon transcripts.  But here, if you wish to travel down the other road, is the work of the man himself .  The very best of luck!  Clio the Muse 13:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah yet again you have saved the day, i have found a title of a goons script called "the mystery of the cow on the hill" - just trying to find a transcription of it now, and you are quite right a serious poet such as McGonagall would never stoop slow low as to use coo or noo (ha ha, the silvery, silvery tay) thanks again, another pointless arguement won! Perry-mankster 15:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Anarchy vs Liberalism
1.	What is the main difference between the anarchist and classical liberal conceptualization of freedom? Thankyou Tom


 * It's somewhat similar to the difference between us doing your homework for you, and you doing it yourself. See anarchy, liberalism. 213.48.15.234 13:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Anarchism may be a better entry point. --Lambiam Talk  21:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

You could conceivably argue that there are strong conceptual similarities, in that both share a latent hostility towards forms of state coercion or control. Please also look at Libertarianism and related links. You might also consider the page on Max Stirner, as well as that on his book The Ego and its Own if you are feeling really adventurous. Amongst other things Stirner wanted to "abolish not only the state but also society as an institution responsible for its members." Does that not remind anyone of a former British Conservative Prime Minister? Clio the Muse 13:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Feminism
The concept of patriarchy holds that all women are oppressed by men. What criticisms have been made of this concept by ‘Third Wave’ feminists?
 * Now that's a nice essay question for a midterm or final exam. You would do far better by synthesizing the information from your readings yourself.  If we were to answer, we would likely mention people not in your texts and make it very, very obvious to your instructor that you were getting help.  Utgard Loki 12:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a Wikipedia page on Third-wave feminism, but it's not especially helpful in this regard. I would suggest, therefore, that you look at Third Wave Feminism: A Critical Exploration by Stacey Gills et all (eds), Inclusive Feminism: a Third Wave Theory of Women's Communality by Naomi Zack, and The Women's Movement Today: an Encyclopedia of Third-wave Feminism by Leslie Heywood. The last one in particular is very expensive, so look it up in a library. However, I would also echo what Utgard Loki has said to you in the above. Clio the Muse 14:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Whose concept of patriarchy holds that all women are oppressed by men? I would question the premise. Corvus cornix 16:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, I'm sure a clever tap dancer could work out a way for the premise to be true ("all women are oppressed by some masculine invention" "all women are oppressed by the things men have done" "all women are, to some greater or lesser degree, oppressed and prevented from full expression by men who will not allow such expression"), but the essay sets up this really fabulously naive and crude "patriarchy" to be punctured by clever and aware "third wave" feminists. It's designed as a straw woman, in other words.  (Now, if we were actually clever, we'd ask how upholding the notion of a transcendent and pronouncable characteristic of the "female" is justified after we have shown the limitations of the past's two-dimensionality.)  Utgard Loki 16:55, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just think how clever "they" would have to be just to understand Utgard Loki's question. I'm still reeling. (lol) Bielle 21:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Really infelicitous phrasing on my part (and who talks like that?). It was just the old Marxist hostility to feminism.  It's one of those questions that starts arguments.  "If we admit that the old wave feminists were naive in talking about 'patriarchy' and the like, then how can you go on, knowing, as you do, that 'feminine' and 'woman' are subjects that are defined and redefined constantly by each historical moment and have no meaning that can stretch across time? How, in other words, can you justify 'women's studies' or 'feminism,' when you know that all you can ever talk about is the present moment?"  Like I said, it starts arguments.  (It also has answers, but the grand academie is rift in twain.)  Utgard Loki 12:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Book
What are some examples of well known books where a female character seems to like a male character very much, but then just ends up running off with a different male character? --65.92.51.223 11:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In Gone With the Wind, Scarlett O'Hara marries two men she didn't love, before finally relenting and marrying the man who was her true love all along, Rhett Butler. --  JackofOz 12:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Far from the Madding Crowd. Gandalf61 14:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmm....running off? Well I suppose you could have Natasha Rostova in Lev Tolstoy's War and Peace. She becomes engaged to Prince Andrey Bolkonsky, but later attempts an elopement (a running-off!) with Anatole Kuragin. And, of course, Anna Karenina 'runs off' with Count Vronsky, but she is married to a man, Alexi Alexandrovich Karenin, that she does not love. Clio the Muse 14:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, that'll do. That's all I need. --Codell «T » 16:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC) (the original poster)


 * Now I didn't expect that question under something titled "Book" :-). Also, try The Mayor of Casterbridge although the running off bit isn't really at the end. The Mad Echidna 15:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Social Democracy vs Liberal Democracy
What are the main differences between a Liberal and Social Democratic welfare state?

User 65.91.50.114 9.51 PM AEST Tom
 * —The preceding strangely signed comment was added by User: (talk • contribs) – Please sign your posts properly!


 * Very little; but see Social Democracy, Liberal Democracy and the Welfare state. Clio the Muse 13:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Completly different.

Liberal democracy means a high level of political freedom, free speech, right to elect leaders, right to muliparties right to protest descions.

Social democracy an attempt for an equal distribution of resources but within a democratic frame work and a right to disent regarding the plan to redistribute resources. Ie is social democracy the gov may nationalize banks or create cradle to grave benefits but before it can be done the democracticly elected legislature must vote on it and any one opposed to the plane has the right to speak out against it.


 * If we restrict ourselves to expressions of liberal democracy that are not incompatible with the notion of a welfare state, then (in my opinion) social democracy = liberal democracy + some remnants of socialist verbiage. It's rather like Tweedledum and Tweedledee: without the labels you can't tell them apart. You'd be hard pressed to find a consistent difference in actual policies between the two. --Lambiam Talk  20:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Homophobic United States Army officer who was a hypocrite
I recall a case in the past couple of years where a United States Army officer (or ex-officer) who made a name by castigating gays but he was cruising gay bars and online gay dating services. I am interested in his name. Alan Liefting 14:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You're not thinking about Roy Cohn, I hope, who was all about outing "communists" from the Army, and then gays, when he was himself gay? Utgard Loki 15:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * No, not him. The person I am thinking of was prominent in the media in the last year or two. Alan Liefting 18:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Not a military person, but possibly former congressman Ed Schrock? --LarryMac  | Talk 19:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Again not military, but Ted Haggard was in the media lately as well. СПУТНИК CCC  P 20:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

If "keeping strange company" suffices in place of "hypocrite", you might be thinking of Matt Sanchez of Jeff Gannon? - Outerlimits 07:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Dutch language in the United States
What is true of the story that English defeated Dutch by one vote to become the de facto national language of the United States? The article Languages of the United States has nothing on this. 129.125.174.139 15:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not true. As you noted, English is merely the de facto national language of the US.  There aren't votes for that sort of thing, and aside from New Amsterdam, Dutch simply wouldn't have significant traction in what's now the US. &mdash; Lomn 15:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Could this be a different version of the Muhlenberg legend? 129.125.174.139 16:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I heard a similar story to yours, only it featured German instead of Dutch - I'm sure there are multiple variations... Random Nonsense 17:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The language spoken by Muhlenberg and the petitioners for German translation would have been an ancestor of Pennsylvania Dutch, which, despite its name, is derived from dialects of German. This might explain why the questioner mentioned "Dutch".  Marco polo 17:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

There was never any vote on the de facto, or de jure language of the US. But they did have a vote on whether important documents should be available in german as well as english.

Tutankamon
Im not english,so pardon my grammar mistakes.But I studied in both English university and in my own country, and in both countries students are being tought that Tutankamons tomb was not found before because of the lack of the documentes about his reign.Isnt that important enough to be mentioned in the article about him,because people might wonder why his tomb was the last one to be discovered? I would change this article myself,like I did in many other occasions on other articles,but theres a difference here.Usually I make or change articles about less important persons or things,so for this reason I dont want to change this article,for my english grammar is so bad that someone can think its a prank or a joke,and just revert it.Just read any book from any country in the world and you will see that the reason why his tomb wasnt discovered before is ALWAYS being mentioned. So, I hope now someone with better knowledge of english then mine can just add this information to this article,because its a widly-known fact.Thank you


 * Tutankhamun was not the last pharoah found, only the latest. There are others, just as poorly documented, who have not yet been located. This suggests that recently one of them may have been found. It just isn't something unique to Tut. Clarityfiend 16:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Karl Marx and the Boar's Head
I've been trying to think of something that will fox you all, and I think I may have it. What is the connection between Karl Marx and the head of a boar? Bet nobody gets it right!!! Princess of the night 16:04, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Animal Farm.&mdash;eric 16:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

That's not it. Good guess though. I'll give you all a clue. It's something to do with the British aristocracy. Princess of the night 20:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, here is a little tale that may serve to amuse: Karl Marx was related through marriage to the earls and dukes of Argyll, chiefs of Clan Campbell, whose crest was the Boar's head, with the motto in Latin Ne Obliviscaris (never forget). His wife, Jenny von Westphalen, was the grandaughter of one Anne Wishart, a descendant of the Campbells. When Karl and Jenny were married in June 1843 the wedding presents included a collection of jewellery and silver plate with the Argyll crest, a gift from the bride's mother, and part of a legacy from the von Westphalen's Scottish ancestors.  Later, when the couple were living a penurious existence as political exiles in London, Karl tried to pawn the family silver.  The police were alerted, and he was duly arrested, because they refused to believe that the scruffy German refugee could have acquired these ducal heirlooms legitimately.  The great prophet of world revolution spent the night in the cells, before Jenny came to the rescue in the morning.  The Campbell connection also gave the down-at-heel Karl a very distant link with none other than Queen Victoria herself: for her daughter, Princess Louise was married in 1871 to John Campbell, Marquis of Lorne, the future 9th Duke of Argyll.  The details of this extraordinary story are to be found in Karl Marx by Francis Wheen.  Clio the Muse 22:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Interesting, and it may explain in part the fact that Lawrence and Wishart has published Marx's writings in English. Wareh 14:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It has finally happened. Enough computers linked via the internet allowed the evolution of the first silicon-based intelligence capable of passing the Turing test.  Its name is Clio the Muse.  152.16.59.190 07:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Clio, I'm lost for words!!! Princess of the night 09:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No! We must shut down this silicon-based intelligence system before it obsoletes us humans!--GTPoompt (talk) 12:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Resistence is futile...Perry-mankster 12:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * HAL 9000 went online in 1992, and SkyNet was supposed to follow soon after. Maybe that, like, wasn't, like, you know, fiction, dude!  ("Popeye of Borg: Youse will be askimilated.")  Utgard Loki 12:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Alas, I am no supercomputer, just human, all too human. Clio the Muse 22:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Stradivarius
I've noticed that the Stradivarius article contains a large number of redlinks to specific named instruments. Are there sufficient sources to have individual articles on many/most/all of these? Any suggested starting points for research? JavaTenor 18:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I recommend using the references given in the article for sources and going from there. To decide if the redlinks deserve there own articles see WP:N, and its children links. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (ταlκ )  21:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * One or two might be, in the manner of Maurice Rheims, The Strange Life of Objects. But watch out for "dictionary thinking', which wants to divide a concept into so many trivial insertions that information may be lost. Articles should be encyclopedic in scope. The only reason to break off an article is because a section has so much information it unbalances the larger article. And always leave a concise version at the broader article. --Wetman 21:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

"On the lamb" Slang phrase
I'm in a congressional office, and an older staffer used the phrase "they're on the lamb". I, and the other interns have no idea what this means, except for a vague negative connotation. Any help? I tried Google, and nothing popped up that helped. Thanks. Zidel333 19:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * AFAIK, it means that they're on the run from the law. --Kurt Shaped Box 19:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It is on the lam, not "lamb" - though it would be funny to see them riding around on fluffy little lambs. --Kainaw (talk) 19:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've seen it written as 'on the lamb' in the past. In newspapers, if I recall correctly. --Kurt Shaped Box 22:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * If you want to see/hear it used in a context, check out the song 'Wanted Man' by Bob Dylan / Johnny Cash . Random Nonsense 19:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks guys for the help, the interns and I have been laughing about this for hours. :) Zidel333 19:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Remember Bob Hope and Phyllis Diller? They made a funny movie in the '60's called Eight on the Lam.  --  JackofOz 22:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * If you go to the Bartleby site (http://www.bartleby.com), they have a number of reference works that can be searched. (Bartleby started out as Columbia University's library people before it went .com.)  One of these is Partridge's Dictionary of Slang and another is Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable.  The searches sometimes return a bit of static, but generally they're good for any of these older slang terms.  (They're not going to tell you about the bling of someone's grill, but they're great for explaining why the soldier said he needed Jesus boots. (Because the thing was in the middle of water, and he'd need to walk on water to get to it.))  Geogre 02:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * American Heritage (the best one for etymologies) says, of "on the lam," "etymology obscure." So that's that, except that they suggest that "take it on the lam" is the older form of the idiom.  Utgard Loki 16:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Attack on poet Elinor Wylie
Why was poet Elinor Wylie attacked by the League of American Penwomen (c. 1927)? 128.122.253.229 19:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I can find no reference to this. Can you provide some context?  Clio the Muse 22:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * She was either rejected for membership, or kicked out on moral grounds, presumably because she abandoned her first husband (a later suicide) and child, or for divorcing her second. Edna St. Vincent Millay wrote to them in response: "I too am eligible for your disesteem. Strike me too from your lists, and permit me, I beg you, to share with Elinor Wylie a brilliant exile from your fusty province."&mdash;eric 22:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In the book Republic of Dreams: Greenwich Village: The American Bohemia, 1910-1960 ISBN 0684869969, Ross Wetzsteon wrote that "Elinor Wylie was refused membership in the League of American Penwomen-presumably because she was a lesbian." However, Wylie was heterosexual and in fact "ostracized for having abandoned her husband and baby to run off with a married man" according to Phoebe Pettingell in a June 30, 2002 article entitled A Coney Island of the soul (published in Volume 85; Issue 3 of The New Leader). -- Jreferee (Talk) 00:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

castle?
I'm trying to recall the name/location of a (very) large castle/citadel (big enough to have a condsiderable town inside) in the middle east (probably syria) - notable for having been capturered very few times at all - possibly not at all during the crusades. I know that it was eventually captured by the mongols/(tartars) (as I recall they scaled the walls). I believe it is still in very good condition. Not a crusader castle.. Any?87.102.74.102 20:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the Citadel of Aleppo? If not, see Category:Castles in Syria and list of castles in Syria. Neutralitytalk 20:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Alamut was the citadel of the Hashshashin, and resisted both the crusaders and Saladin until falling to the Mongols. Is that the one? Adam Bishop 21:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It might also be Masyaf, which was built by the Byzantines. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (ταlκ )  21:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

When I think of castles in Syria the first that comes to mind is the formidable Krak des Chevaliers. But that, of course, was a Crusader stronghold, the best ever built. Clio the Muse 22:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

What about Constantinople? Granted, it was captured by the Turks who used a great many big guns. The Jade Knight 02:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Constantinople was definitely captured during the crusades; see Fourth Crusade and Latin Empire. --Lambiam Talk  02:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

It was Aleppo I was thinking of - thanks for your help - 87.102.43.60 10:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)