Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 March 14

= March 14 =

Norse Gods' Symbols
Hi, I'm researching the symbols for some of the main gods and mythological beings. Here's my list (I've filled in what I know):
 * Thor - Mjollnir his hammer
 * Odin - The valknut
 * Baldr
 * Eir
 * Freyja - Hildisvini, her boar
 * Loki - Possibly the snakes at Urnes Stave Church but only from this site.
 * Tyr - T rune (Tiwaz rune
 * Sol (goddess) - S rune (looks a bit like Σ)
 * Mani (god) - possibly mannaz rune (mani and mannaz are quite similar]]

Can anyone confirm or deny any of the above? Thanks, Bioarchie1234 07:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Bioarchie, there may be some confusion between Freyja and her brother Freyr, who also rides a boar, by the name of Gullinbursti. Although Freyja is associated with Hildisvini, her sacred symbol appears to be the cat, whereas Freyr's symbol is the boar.  Tyr's symbol is the spear, an attribute of justice as well as a weapon.  Sol carries the shield Svalin. I do not think that Baldr has a sacred symbol.  Perhaps is should be mistletoe?   Clio the Muse aka Loki 08:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's a one-to-one correspondence between each god(dess) and a symbol attributed. "Symbolism" could be interpreted broadly, and some god(desse)s would likely have had more than one, some might lack them completely. I also am puzzled by the selection. How come you've included Eir, Sol and Mani, but not, for instance, Heimdall, Bragi and Iðunn? What do you need this information for? 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ * 12:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure Loki is associated with the serpent of midgard or Fenric the wolf.--Lerdthenerd 09:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It's just for personal research. I included Mani and Sol so I have all the days of of the week (minus Saturday because that's Saturn's day). Mani's is Monday, Tyr's is Tuesday, Odin's (or Woden's) is Wednesday, Thor's is Thursday and Freyja's (or possibly Freyr's - I'm not sure) is Friday. Sol's is Sunday. Also I included Eir because I thought there might be a particular sign for her - she's a healing goddess so I thought the sign might have been thought to protect the wearer. I left out Heimdall, Iðunn and Bragi because they're not days of the week. But I included Loki because although he's not strictly a god, I like him. He is a bit mean at times though. Although Baldr only appears primarily in his death-story (or so I've been told), I like that story so I included him.
 * Lerdthenerd : Thanks for that, I should have thought of that (after all Jormangund, Fenrir and Hel are Loki's children!) Also, thanks to Clio the Muse for the help with the symbols. You're all very knowledgeable!Bioarchie1234 17:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * FYI: according to the Oxford English Dictionary, the English word "Friday" actually is named for Frigg. Crypticfirefly 04:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, from the Old English frigedaeg-the day of Frigg-, Cryptic, but in the other Germanic languages the Goddess in question is Freyja, though the two are frequently identified with each other. Clio the Muse 05:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your corrections! Bioarchie1234 19:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Was Algernon Sidney(1622-1683) involved in the constitution of Pennsylvania or not?
Hallo, sorry for my bad English. Most of the webpages SydneyHistory.htm,1911encyclopedia and algernon.shtml mention, that Algernon Sidney was involved in working out of the Pennsylvania constitution, but NNDB writes: "... (Algernon Sidney) was warmly supported by William Penn, with whom he had long been intimate, and to whom he is said (as is now thought, erroneously ) to have afforded assistance in drawing up the constitution of Pennsylvania. " So, what is right, what is wrong? It is for a german writing competition in Wikipedia. Article about Algernon Sidney is here in work. Thanks in advance -- Jlorenz1 08:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Jlorenz, I've had a close look at the articles by Ficalora and Baker (your first and third links), and the one simply duplicates the information given in the other. Both read like hagiography, and what is worse there are some gross errors of both fact and interpretation.  The NNDB article is considerably more detached and scholarly, and I personally would place far more reliance on what it has to say on the matter.  Incidentally, this is a restatement of the 1911 edition of Britannica, which does not support Sydney's involvement in the Pennsylvania constitution, as your arrangement of sources would suggest.  You should try to dig out, if you can, The Life and Times of the Hon. Algernon Sydney by Alexander Charles Ewald, published in two volumes in London in 1873, and the only full-scale account of his career ever written.  I imagine you will only find this in a good research library.  More accessible, and considerably more up-to-date, is Algernon Sydney and the Restoration Crisis, 1677-1683 by Jonathan Scott, published by Cambridge University Press in 2002.  You should also look at Charles the Second by Ronald Hutton, published by the Clarendon Press in 1989.  Clio the Muse 09:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hallo Clio the Muse, thanks for your answer, but your suggestion isn't a solution, because NNDB is from 2006 ("(as is now thought, erroneously ) " and the other sources are older. I've written Jonathan Scott and Thomas G.West, but I've no hope to get an answer. Thanks although Johannes -- Jlorenz1 10:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Look again, Jlorenz: the wording and is now thought erroneously refers to the suggestion that Sydney was involved in drawing up the Pennsylvania constitution, not to the encyclopedia article (I repeat, the NNDB is simply the same information presented in the 1911 edition of Britannica). In other words, there is no compelling evidence to suggest that Sydney collaborated with Penn on this document. In my estimation the articles by Ficalora and Baker have little in the way of practical value.  If any of what I have written here is still unclear to you I will be happy to offer further explanation.  Clio the Muse 11:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There is a letter of William Penn's dated 13 October 1681 which talks of talking with Col. Sidney and drafting ideas on constitutions although Sidney said William's ideas were little better than Turkish government (i.e. despotic). This is quoted in William Penn and the Founding of Pennsylvania: 1680-1684 but it says that it could be referring to Henry Sidney, Algernon's brother who Penn certainly wrote to. It may be that there is more evidence to prove it wasn't Algernon: there is an article about it in the Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography "Who Was 'Colonel Sidney'?: A Note on the Meaning of the October 13, 1681, Penn-Sidney Letter," by Peter Karsten . Or he may not be regarded as having a major part in the drafting as his views were so at variance to Penn's.  meltBanana  15:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * To add further confusion:"Penn looked for help to his old friend, John Locke, lately engaged on a similar task, and to Algernon Sidney, for whom he had recently undertaken the rough and uncongenial work of a contested election. The original manuscript of the Framework of Government for Pennsylvania preserved in the archives of its Historical Society is written in Penn's hand, and contains interlineations and notes in the handwriting both of Locke and Sidney."However, this and the letter given by meltBanana above are referring to the first Frame of Government, repudiated by the Colonial Assembly and substantially revised before approval in 1683 of the second Frame of Government and first constitution.&mdash;eric 16:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Source of the Arabic phrase "لا مؤثر في الوجود إلا الله"
Hey all. I'm doing some study on a poem in which it would behoove me to find out the source of the following Arabic phrase: لا مؤثر في الوجود إلا الله. The meaning is basically "none but Allah has dominion over creation", and it is used primarily in reference to tawhid, or the unity of God in Islam ... however, I'm curious about the source of the phrase. Does anyone happen to know? Is it from the Qur'an, from the hadith, from somewhere else? I haven't been able to find an exact-word Arabic Qur'an or hadith search online, and googling the exact phrase didn't help much either (largely because I don't actually know Arabic). Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Cheers. —Saposcat 13:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you certain that the phrase indeed has a source rather than being the creation of the author of the poem? What I mean to say is that the phrase seems to be a rather natural interpretation of the basics of Islam as written in the texts you mentioned. For example, consider the Christian hymn: Jesus loves me, yes I know, for the Bible tells me so. This phrase obviously has no Biblical source, rather it's obviously the creation of the author, as how s/he naturally interprets the Bible. I hope I'm being helpful as it's starting to feel like I'm just taking shots in the dark! Loomis 12:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The poem itself, by an Ottoman Turkish poet, does not use the phrase. Rather, the poem uses the compound "جاروب لا" (which means, literally, "brush of lâ". As I did some research on this odd compound, I found that it is used as basically a shorthand allusion to one of two phrases, both of which actually refer to the same idea (namely, the unity of God). The first phrase it refers to is the one I'm wondering about; the second phrase is the well-known "لا إله إلاَّ الله" ("there is no God but God"). Insofar as both phrases are presented in my source (a Turkish-language dictionary of Sufi terminology which compiles all sorts of info from much older such dictionaries) as clearly phrased givens, I'm under the impression that it's a set phrase culled from somewhere. I could be wrong of course, but the likelihood in this case—given the way that information is presented in the dictionary I mentioned—seems low. Thank you, nonetheless, for shooting in the dark; I appreciate it.


 * I wonder if anyone might know of an Arabic-script, Arabic-language Qur'an and/or Hadith search tool out there on the Internet anywhere. I've looked and looked, but ain't found one yet, and it seems such would be a good place to start. Cheers. —Saposcat 13:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The ethics/laws behind rewards for partaking in experiments/studies
(ramdbling) Hypothetical question here: Ive heard of these studies that go for approx 30 days and pay a pretty good lump sum (Ive seen one at $6000) once complete. Now, I remember from my undergrad days there was tons of psych students doing their thesis experiments or whatever and offering little prizes or rewards for partaking. After, further discussing with one such psych student they told me that it was part of the "ethical code" to reward the participant regardless if they finished the study or not. So, this leads to my question. Could one not complete one of the major studies (a study along the lines of the one I mentioned in the beginning) and still must be awarded, by some ethical guidelines laid out by the APA or soemthing, the compensation money? Whats the word on this?

Thanks!!! 65.200.190.242 14:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)moe.ron


 * This is pure speculation, but i'd have to assume that in any situation like this there is some kind of contract or other agreement made by both parties, and whether the 'subject' receives compensation for not completing the study would be determined there on a case-by-case basis. The nature of the experiment also probably has something to do with it &mdash; if it's something with no risk (like a simple survey), it makes sense to me that they'd get no compensation if they don't finish. If it's something else that could possibly impact a person's health or whatever, it seems more likely they'd be compensated even if they quit early. Obviously if somebody gets sick because of the experiment and they have to quit, they're not gonna be left with nothing to show for it. ~ lav-chan @ 17:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

(famous?) seminude woman in lima with flag painted on her body
Hello,

I just saw a weird short fragment on television, involving a woman in Lima who was almost completely naked, and who had a flag painted on her body. She took a shower in a fountain. Her action had to do with Chilean occupation of land that used to be Peruvian. Can anyone tell me who she was and what exactly she was trying to do? Thanks,Evilbu 15:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Good heavens, are people still protesting about the outcome of the War of the Pacific after all these years? Surely it's time to move on? Clearly not, at least judging by the outbreak of the recent Maritime Dispute. Clio the Muse 18:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * According to this newspaper, which also has a videoclip, her name is Reina Loo, and she is a Peruvian topless model. She'd had the Chilean flag painted on her body, and protested by washing it off in a fountain in Lima. The reason was said to be an on-going dispute over territorial borders (the one linked to by Clio). --NorwegianBluetalk 18:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In the interests of better understanding latin american politics I watched the vidclip of the naked chick in the fountain. For a partial explantion to her publicity stunt see here.  meltBanana  23:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Seeing that, my heart goes out to my Peruvian friends plight. I think it important, now, my Chilean friends reply in kind DDB 01:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Idylls of the King Help
I'm reading Alfred Lord Tennyson's Idylls of the King, and in need of some help. For clarification purposes, this is NOT homework, I'm curious of other people's ideas, and wish to better understand the work.


 * First, the article on the Idylls of the King is in need of, and currently undergoing, major revisions and Sparknotes does not cover the Idylls. In lieu of this, are there any other cites worth recommending covering the Idylls both in plot, background information, trivia, and comparison to other Arthurian works?


 * Secondly, I came across a Biblical proverb reference that I don't fully understand: "there is a lion in the way" (The Holy Grail, line 642). Please explain.


 * Thirdly, my professor mentioned that as Tennyson made King Arthur as a metaphor for Prince Albert, and because in the Balin and Balan Idyll, the emphasis on minor (e.g. lower class) characters can be on some level a socio-economic reference to Victorian England. How far can this be applied, and how true do you think this to be?


 * Fourthly, Tennyson changes the character of Arthur to be reflect the character of Albert, how far do these changes go, and do they disrupt the legends?


 * And finally, is there anything you feel I should know and understand about the works thus far? I fear my professor is not doing a good job explaining this peice as much as I would like.

Thanks in advance, Zidel333 19:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't mean to be rude but if you are studying this under a professor then it sounds like homework to me even if you are not going to be marked on it. I did not know what "there is a lion in the way" meant but I looked it up on this thing called the internet and read a bit of the bible (not too much so it didn't hurt) and understood it. Searching for "Morte d'Albert" may explain some of the supposed allegory. Any good edition of the work should have an introduction and notes. F. E. L. Priestly's Tennyson's Idylls and The Fall of Camelot: A Study of Tennyson's Idylls of the King by John D. Rosenberg are two fairly modern studies.  meltBanana  20:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I repeat, this is NOT homework. My professor does not assign homework, nearly all our grades are dependent on class partcipation, and exams. Also, homework implies grading or at least verfication that it was done; the info I requested is not specific to any assignment, but rather pretains more to my general understanding of the work, and (quite frankly) my curiosity. Secondly, I'm a Wikiholic, and the fact no real resource is availible to me online bothers me. My mind is usually swimming with random info, and questions, and usually I just look it up and move forward. In this case, I could not do it, so I figured I should ask.


 * If you're going to claim not to be rude than don't be rude, and than insult me. I'm not stupid, please don't treat me as such. Zidel333 22:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I did not think I insulted you, I am sorry for any accidental insult given. I did not say I wasn't going to be rude just that I did not mean to. Your questions are of such an epic nature that it is difficult to tackle them without over summarising. "How does it reference victorian socio-economic stuff?" "How does a link to Albert make it different to previous version?" that is an awful lot of study. As I said searching for "Morte d'Albert" will tell you it was a charge levelled at the work by Algernon Swinburne and not a particularly substantive criticism. As for "there is a lion in the way" it is from Proverbs 26:13 and is a silly excuse used by a sluggard for not going out and doing anything which Lancelot suggests he has been like. TTFN  meltBanana  23:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a fascinating set of questions, Zidel; but it is also one that has all the potential to elicit an answer of immense proportions, and I am not really sure that I am able address it with the fullness and adequacy that it deserves, especially as its a while now since I studied Tennyson's poetry. At best I can only provide some partial answers, but which may help to place some of the epic themes in context.

I remember writing an essay on the Idylls on the theme of 'celebration and regret': celebration of past and present greatness; regret for loss and decline. Tennyson started to write the Idylls at the peak of British economic and political success, so it seemed natural to celebrate this by comparing it with the legendary greatness of Arthurian Britain. But the Industrial Revolution, upon which Britain's new golden age was based, left little room for romance; so a mood of celebration was also combined with one of nostalgia, a desire for the past, not just the distant past of Arthur but, in Tennyson's scheme, and as the time of composition grew longer, a more immediate past in the person of Prince Albert. For Tennyson Albert did, in a sense, become the new King Arthur, and his death marks the passage of the golden age of empire, the passing of Camelot. This was so marked at the time of publication that critics refered to the work as the 'Idylls of the Prince Consort' or 'Le Morte D'Albert'. I do not know if it's fair to say that the Poet's tribute to the Prince disrupted the legends; but it certainly gave them a highly contemporary feel and significance.

I'm not quite sure I fully accept the interpretation your professor places on the theme of Balin and Balan, though it is not entirely without merit. Balin the Savage seems to me not to denote lower-class elements, but something far more fundamental and transcendent. To my mind the two brothers represent, at the simplest level, the spirit of order and the spirit of chaos. Balin, in particular, stands for the destructivness, and self-destructiveness,that always stands in the shadow of civilization. Balan is receptive to the order and refinement of Arthur's court, but Balin remains marked by his bestial nature. Order manages, to a degree to restrain chaos, but does not fully understand either its nature or its source. You may recollect the lines where Balan, about to embark on his quest, says to his brother;

Let not thy moods prevail when I am gone

''Who used to lay them! hold them from outer fiends,''

Who leap at thee to tear thee; shake them aside,

Dreams ruling when wit sleeps!

But Balin's fiends are not outside: they form part of his being. And in a deeper sense they form part of the being of Camelot itself. Balin feels inferor, an outsider in the midst of law and perfection; but the affair between Guinivere and Lancelot blows away the artificial symmetry, the hollow sham of courtly order. Balin flees into the wood to embrace his own true nature;

...here I dwell

Savage among the savage woods, here die

Die: let the wolves' black maws ensepulchre

Their brother's beast, whose anger was his lord.

No false manners, no lies, no hypocrisy. In the encounter that follows in the wood between Balin and Balan, order battles chaos, and both are reconciled in death;

Balin answered low

'Goodnight, true brother here, goodmorrow there!

We two were born together and we die

Together by one doom' and while he spoke

Closed his death-drowsing eyes, and slept the sleep

''With Balin, either locked in either's arm. ''

Finally, the biblical reference is to the proverb of the lazy man, who makes excuses for his inaction by claiming that there is a lion in his way. I cannot recollect its use in the context you mention, and therefore can offer no meaningful explanation. Anyway, my answer is less than immense, but more than I desire! Clio the Muse 02:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Psychological characters
Hello, I remember there have been several books written on the different types or stereotypes of personalities and psychological characters found in human societies. I know there has been several of them written at the end of the XIXth, begginning of the XXth Century but I guess there might be some more recent ones too. Could anyone point to the references of some of these books. Thank you. 81.241.155.171 21:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What are you referring to? Beliefs similar to the somatotype theory? 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ * 23:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

What immediately leaps to mind here is Carl Gustav Jung's 1921 classic Psychological Types. Clio the Muse 05:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Origination of the name "Goth"
The first Avignon Pope was Clement V. His real name is "Bertrand de Goth", which I assume is Bertrand of Goth. Goth apparently is a region or type of people. What does this mean exactly, that of "Goth". How did that become a part of his name? --Doug talk 22:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Have you checked out Goths? They were a Germanic tribe. Sacked Rome and all that. Pretty important from the 4th through the 6th centuries. Bertrand there was probably descended from a few of them; for a period a branch of them (the Visigoths) had control of lots of France, including the region of what would later be Bordeaux, where Clement was (much later) born. That the last bits have any connection to the name is pure conjecture on my part, though. --24.147.86.187 00:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The fullest information I could find on Bertrand was in the Catholic Encyclopedia, where he is referred to as 'Bertrand de Got', but even that offers no explanation for the origin of his name. The Goths did occupy Gascony for a time, though by the late thirteenth century, when Bertrand was born, they had left little trace of themselves. The name suggests a link with a place called Got, perhaps in the neighbourhood of Villandraut; but I, too, am speculating. Clio the Muse 03:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The family name is often spelled Gouth. In the Nobiliare de Guienne et Gasconne (p 355) I see that Bertrande de Gouth, daughter of Bernard de Gouth, married in 1573 Thomas de Pontac. The earlier form of the name was de Agathis (Jean Justin Monlezun, Histoire de la Gascogne, p. 98) or perhaps Gouth de Agathis; the family held the Château of Villandraut, (Image:Plan.chateau.Villandraut.png illustrates a groundplan, from Viollet-le-Duc) as Clio notes, near Bazas, and claimed noble descent since the 1100s. The connection with Goth is purely coincidental.--Wetman 05:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Good research! --24.147.86.187 01:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for these answers. The family name of "Gouth" history of Wetman seems to make the most sense to me. I have some good information to follow up on now. --Doug talk 11:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Blank in revolvers
There was a tradition to put a blank in your 6 shooter in the XIXth Century. Is this correct and what purpose did it serve? 81.241.155.171 22:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I heard that the guns' constructions made them prone to misfire. If all six bullets were loaded in the gun, a shot was liable to go off by mistake and wound the owner. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ * 23:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Mmh ... why put in a blank then not just an empty cartridge. 81.242.185.120 16:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I've heard that the chamber under the hammer was sometimes left empty in case the revolver went off by mistake, but not that a blank was used, which would have been pointless. -- Necrothesp 20:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * To avoid damaging the hammer, an empty cartridge was commonly left under the hammer. So, if it misfired, it would have something to smack against.  However, this was only for freaks that walked around with the hammer cocked.  A normal person would keep his shooter in a proper holster with a hammer-guard strap. --Kainaw (talk) 20:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I was taught to leave an empty chamber under tha hammer when carrying a revolver, because if the gun were dropped on a hard surface it might fire a cartridge under the hammer, even if not cocked. In a big ol' western style shootout I might have opted for having the extra shot available. For target practice, safety would be better served by the empty chamber. Edison 23:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

sir andreas de harcla
sir andreas de harcla was born around 1276? in northern england. He served under king edward the second as a soldier doing battle with the scottish forces along the northern border. He was knighted for his courage and valor; however he and his brother john were beheaded for political reasons and their heads ended up hanging from the london bridge. my question is; were the de harcla family of noble heritage before andreas became famous? and was the harcla castle (in cumbria)built long before then? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.8.42.52 (talk) 22:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC).
 * This mentions his father, "Sir Michael de Harcla, sheriff of Cumberland", the same office that Andreas held. Clarityfiend 23:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Andrew Harclay, 1st Earl of Carlisle, was the son of Michael de Harclay, who was Sheriff of Cumberland, an important political and legal office, from 1285 to 1298. Although the family was of noble origin, before Andrew it did not rank amongst the higher nobility of England. The Wikipedia article says that he was born about 1276 at what was to become Hartley Castle, though the manor was in the possession of the Clifford family at that time, and was only granted to Andrew around 1315 after it was confiscated from Roger de Clifford. It was only fortified in 1323, from which time it was referred to by its present name. Andrew was among the most loyal of the followers of Edward II, occupying a number of important posts on the northern border, and serving in the Scottish wars. But it was for his role in defeating Thomas Earl of Lancaster, leader of the English baronial opposition, at the Battle of Boroughbridge in 1322 that he was created Earl of Carlisle by the grateful king. However, increasingly conscious that the northern border was almost impossible to defend against repeated Scots raids, he entered into secret negotiations on his own initiative with King Robert Bruce, with the intention of securing a return to some kind of normality, particularly important as Edward seemed to have lost all interest in effective defence of the north. When Edward discovered this Andrew and his brother John were arrested and condemned as traitors. Both men were hung, drawn and quartered-the ghastly penalty for traitors at the time-and the title forfeit to the crown. People who are interested in the history of warfare might care to note that the tactics used by Harclay at Boroughbridge-dismounted archers supported by spearmen-were to form the prototype of those later used at Crecy and elsewhere, and allowed England to dominate the battlefields of Europe for over a century. Clio the Muse 23:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

James S. Pitkin Quote
I found the following quote attached to someones email and would like to find more about James Pitkin and the book/letters/manuscript that was written. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Quote follows:

"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

Thanks, Darrell P.S. can't find anything on internet, google, yahoo, quotes etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.24.104.31 (talk) 23:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC).


 * I can find no reference to this person anywhere, Darrell. Are you sure the name is correct?  Clio the Muse 02:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Clio, no I am not sure this name is correct but that is the name attributed to the quote in the persons email. I asked him and he had no idea who or where he found the quote. I have also tried to search using parts of the quote and cannot find it either. I am at a loss that why the question here. Thanks for trying though.


 * Just to check, I googled the phrase "permanent change in your deportment". Sure enough, all three results (only three!) list the exact quote above, and list James S. Pitkin as the author...and mention, as well, a ship called the "Flying Pig". A subsequent search of "James Per$ Flying Pig" does reveal a man named James Perkins who may have been associated with a ship called the Flying Pig -- but the trail stops here, and I can't connect Perkins with the quote at all. Can someone pick up the trail? Could this man be known ONLY for the quote? Did someone fabricate quote and man, and pass it along to two others and no more? What does Occam's Razor say here? Jfarber 03:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

First, let me thank Clio and Jfarber for the help. I found it! The book name is "The First Book of Boats" published in 1947 by Anchordown. It looks like the book is a series of essays/short stories which includes "Something to Remember" by James S Pitkin. Can't find anything else by Pitkin so I guess I'll purchase this and add it to my sailboats library. Should make for an interesting read on the next overnight passage. Again thanks. Darrell


 * Well done, and greetings from a fellow sailing enthusiast! Clio the Muse 06:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)