Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 March 9

= March 9 =

public domain art?
Is there any public domain Zen or Taoist or other beautiful and simple art about nature I can find on the internet anywhere and which I can freely publish in a book? --Sonjaaa 01:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you're publishing in the US, Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. basically means you can freely reproduce any old two-dimensional PD art (19th century paintings etc.), even if it's from a digital image (or indeed from a book or magazine) published by someone else.--Pharos 05:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * how do i know if a specific painting ir 2D art is PD or not? do I go by year? or something like that? what's the system?--Sonjaaa 06:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In the US, if it's from 1922 or earlier, it's always PD.--Pharos 06:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Theory
Who was it who posted and what is the name of the theory that states (in essence) "...you only agree with that theory because you can understand it..."165.12.252.11 00:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC) baxter de wahl
 * Is that a "theory"? Just looks like a smart-ass quip. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ * 01:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Is this the argument from ignorance, incredulity, lack of imagination…? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 23:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Art Laffer - tax cuts
I remember that Art Laffer wrote an op-ed piece for the Wall Street Journal in the late 90's about the Reagan tax cuts. His premise was that tax cuts don't work well UNTIL they completely take effect. He seemed to be arguing that a phased in tax cut was far worse than a single tax cut.

I have searched the WSJ.com and tried a lot of other areas on line.

Can anyone help me find that op-ed piece?

24.168.150.80 02:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There is a page on Art Laffer with a partial list of his financial journalism. Perhaps you may find what you are looking for there?  Clio the Muse 10:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Word "pawn"
while doing odd jobs for a metal smith community i came to learn a great many things some of what i've not been able to find significant corroborating reference material. the particular question i have is in regard to some lore i was told regarding pawn shops. i was told that pawn shops were once known by another name before having done business with a native American Indian tribe the Pawnee. the pawnee, as i was told, would come in to town with their catch and visit the pawn broker before setting up for trade with local furriers. they would place what i understand to be silver jewelry gem'd with turquoise that also became known as pawn. today pawn is a heavily sought and prized antiquity. i've found no corroborating information on wiki. anyone know?
 * Incorrect, according to both dictionary.com and etymonline.com, it's likely from (Norman) French pan(t), from a Frankish word similar to *panda, akin to German "Pfand" etc. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ * 04:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

how to Print without images
Dear wikipedia Adminidtrator,I would to know how to Print without images —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nadeemaftab (talk • contribs) 05:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC).


 * Ask in the Computing refdesk maybe... Also, what browser are you using? (I'm assuming you mean to print a web page?)--Sonjaaa 06:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If you are using Firefox, and have Web Developer extension (which, I think, is included by default on new installation), you just need to click on
 * Tools -> Web Developer -> Images -> Disable Images -> All Images
 * That will reload the page without any images, so try printing then. If you using Internet Explorer, just Get Firefox. Shinhan 20:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Save the webpage (file -> save page as), delete the folder that was also saved, open up the .html file, and print. --Bowlhover 00:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In Firefox, just click Edit => Preferences => Content, and uncheck "Load Images Automatically". --TotoBaggins 04:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

What is Consumer Invoice
What is Consumer Invoice? 202.54.176.11 09:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)Anand
 * See invoice. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ * 09:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

"Registered Mark" (just M, no T; Canada)
Hi all,

While doing some research, I ran across Environment Canada's "EcoLogo" program, which mentions on a few sub-pages (and is copied elsewhere) that it is a registered mark, not trademark, and is always followed by just a superscripted M, not TM. See http://www.parl.gc.ca/Information/About/Greenhill/programs/ecologo-e.asp?Language=E for an example.

I've never heard of, or seen, a just-M "registered mark" before. Some brief searches don't shed much light; the Wikipedia Trademark article doesn't shed any light. Is this a Canada-only thing? Something they just made up? --MattShepherd 15:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That is strange. A registered mark should be ®, so perhaps it was only an aesthetic choice to have the M. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 23:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What you seem to have encountered is what's known as a certification mark. Unlike a trade-mark, it's got little (but not nothing) to do with intellectual property rights and all to do with the government's, or perhaps some private organization's "stamp of approval" for a certain product. Still, I have to admit that that little "M" mystifies me. What I can say for certain, though, is that nowhere on the Canadian Trade-Marks Act or Regulations is there any mention of a single "M" symbol as having any legal meaning. The question is truly an interesting one, and one I've never encountered, I'm just sorry I can't provide any more useful information about it. Loomis 04:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Dog sitter request
75.55.150.22 16:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)My name is Kelly Patterson. I have a dear friend who will be moving (driving back to Kansas very soon to look for a place to live. She has a dog.  Her dog is her child.  She does not want to give up her dog.  She is asking if there is anyone out there that would be willing to babysit her dog till she gets on her feet and finds a place to live (approximately a month).  God would be so pleased and bless you in a mighy way.  Could you possibly help her out?  She is headed for Hutchinson.  Please get back with me as soon as possible.  Thank you so much and God bless.  


 * I don't think that the reference desk will be able to help out. We can help people find information but can't provide dogsitting services.  In any case, it is unlikely that any of the reference desk editors lives in Hutchinson, Kansas.  Your best bet would be to post an ad on Craiglist for Wichita. (This is the closest city to Hutchinson that has a Craigslist directory).  Marco polo 16:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This is why I love Wikipedia. :D Zidel333 23:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Let's just hope that since He has taken an interest that He'll stay strictly on the pet-sitting areas of Craigslist. :) --TotoBaggins 04:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

What are the details on the recent change of the position of rotation of the three starson the GOP logo
I am trying to address position of rotation on the five-pointed star found on the Grand Old Party (GOP) elephant logo and why it was recently changed to be in the down pointing position, much different than the significant and historic position of the five-pointed stars found on the American flag. A user on the GOP page does not want to address the issue.

Wikipedia needs to clarify why the three stars on the GOP logo have been inverted. We need to address this in the proper area of Wikipedia. Those who choose to remove facts and details due to their ignorance and or political bias are ignorant.

Here is what I found. The three stars on the GOP logo are inverted five-pointed stars pointing down, rather than the position shown on the American Flag. If the collinear edges of the inverted five-pointed stars are joined together a pentagram is produced, a symbol of mystical and magical significance. A probable reason for the change is due to the influence of The Star and Crescent of Kappa Sigma. ΚΣ (Kappa Sigma) is an international fraternity that has produced many alumni, including four senators, eight congressmen, seven governors, and a deputy prime minister. Flsaisalie 16:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What you have just stated is what we call "original research" and it is not allowed on Wikipedia. If you find a respectable news article that makes the claim you are trying to make, then reference it.  Otherwise, there is no room on Wikipedia for this. --Kainaw (talk) 17:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, Flsaisalie, please read WP:NPA. I removed the claims because they were unsourced and potentially defamatory, not because I am ignorant. Please do not refer to me as such. Thanks. --Ali&#39;i 17:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Why does Wikipedia "need" to clarify? What makes that our job?  Corvus cornix 03:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I am going to the reference desk to find the answer on why the change was made to the stars. I do believe it is ignorant for someone to not want to know or not at least try to find out why. Flsaisalie 17:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, let's assume you genuinely want to know the answer. If that's the case, I recommend asking the question, WITHOUT following it with any of the followng types of thing: a) a hostility towards people that have already been asked, and b) any information that clearly suggests you think you already know the answer.


 * IF there is an answer out there, we might not know it, and we might; we might have suggestions about where you could go to get that information, or we might be stumped.  But in my experience, people are much more likely to be helpful if they think that their answers will be recieved well, regardless of what that answer is.   The information you posted, on the other hand, makes it sound like you think you already KNOW the answer -- why should we bother to help you, if that is the case?


 * In other words -- if you REALLY want to know, rather than just theorize, why the star changed, posting ONLY your first sentence would have been much, much more effective. The rest of it makes even the nicest researcher wary, scared, and uncomfortable.   Jfarber 22:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your criticism however if you would like to participate at the reference desk, actions speak louder than words, spend your energy reaching the answer, not to scold me. I followed the steps of HOW TO ASK A QUESTION and did include the results of my homework, including the following steps: Search first, Do your own homework, Include a title and a question, Be specific, Don't provide contact information, Sign your question, Be patient, Do not request medical or legal advice.

I felt the need to point out that the person who deleted my information was deliberately taking no notice of something, the stars being in the position they are!

I will be patient and I am sure to find someone more helpful at the reference desk who can accept the basic principles of How to answer a question, including the following steps: Be thorough, Be concise, not terse, Provide links, Be polite, The reference desk is not a soapbox!

By the way the elephant logo of the GOP takes on the look of the Flag of the United States and out of respect for the Flag of the United States the Union shall never be displayed upside down. US Code Title 4 Section 8(a). Flsaisalie 03:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

In answer to the question, I think I have some evidence here on my desk, underneath the papers on the Kennedy assassination and Truman's defence for dropping an atomic bomb on civilians, twice. Here it is! Apparently, Thomas Jefferson left a bookmark in his library in a little read book, about leftwing ethics. It says that pentagrams are used for .. Aaargh! (omg I just passed away. Avenge me!) DDB 03:47, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Being patient. In the mean time i may get better help at dunkin doughnuts. Flsaisalie 03:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You have made it very clear that you consider all those who don't blindly agree with your agument ignorant fools. However, you never asked what you now imply that you did ask: "Is there a meaning to the downward pointing stars on the GOP logo?"  If you had asked that question, you may have received an answer.  Instead, you went on a rant that everyone who dares disagree with you is ignorant.
 * Answering the question you did not ask: A downward 5-pointed star is commonly called an Eastern Star. It is a common symbol for many organizations, such as the Order of the Eastern Star.  It is a religious symbol, commonly used to represent the Star of Bethlehem.  Instead of pointing to God in Heaven, it points to the Son of God on Earth.  To distance themselves from Christianity, some claim the downard point is pointing westward - which has was the direction of destiny for Europeaners and early Americans because it was the undiscovered land (see Manifest Destiny).  As such, it has been a star of royalty and military for a very long time.  There are many military badges and ribbons that feature a downward 5-pointed star.  Returning to religion, the downward 5-pointed star with a crescent is a common symbol in Islam.
 * So, with all the alternative symbolism of a downward 5-pointed star, is it really ignorant to assume that your theory of converting a star into a pentagram and then assuming the pentagram has some hidden meaning is rather far fetched? --Kainaw (talk) 04:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The correct answer in your case could have been simply either: A) I do not know and here is some of my own "original research" or B) I do not have a source for a correct answer,

Please re-read >> How to answer a question << above. Maybe if seasoned Wikipedia members followed the rules then the new guys would follow their lead. You are setting bad standards for the site.

At this point we have all visited five-pointed stars where it leaves us still wondering and I would hope we are not using an eastern star as a political party logo that symbolized the Flag of the United States.

Answering appropriately would be more respectful on an issue concerning a SACRED symbolization in this a case a logo that represents the United States Flag in an improper way, showing the Union UPSIDE DOWN and is potentially illegal under US Code Title 4 Section 8(a). Flsaisalie 06:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not so sure an upside-down star -> upside-down flag? I do agree that perhaps WP:AGF should be observed on your part. Your tone seems to discourage others from openly contributing to your question. Splintercellguy 11:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the pentagram is given mystical occult significance by many, regardless of whether it points up or down. However, the mid-19th-century French occult author Eliphas Levi invented the rule that a pentagram pointing up supposedly symbolizes white magic, while a pentagram pointing down supposedly symbolizes black magic.  But nobody has ever paid much attention to that with respect to the U.S. flag -- if you look at many 19th-century flags, the stars are pointing semi-randomly in all directions. AnonMoos 13:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This exchange is getting silly, but I cannot resist pointing out that, if you want to know WHY a particular organization changed its logo recently, you would probably get the best results by contacting that organization directly.  Logos are updated regularly in many organizations; there is always some sort of organizational process by which such things are done; such things are part of that organization's internal history, and they might be willing to answer your question if they think your request is genuine.  My advice: write the GOP, and ask ONLY the question, without offering a theory first.  Jfarber 15:18, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the thoughtful information. I will explore for more information. I sympathize for any hurt feelings.

I do not take ownership in the Grand Old Party page but feel perplexed as to why they do not provide more detailed historical information on logos used in the past.

I did not write the U.S. Code Title 4, please do not blame me. It clearly has strict regulation for the use of Flags or the like in advertising etc. and for when the Union is allowed to be upside down (all stars upside down). I will suggest the Flag of the United States page show some flags where the union or (all stars) appear upside down, as all flags on the Flag of the United States page show the Union in the typical upright position on each flag. AnonMoos or anyone with links to sites where this is available would be appreciated. Please note that I have seen the flag where there are 5 pointed stars in many different positions of rotation but have not found any that show them all pointing down.

If you are interested you can read more of why this is relevant as listed on the Timeline of the Flag of the United States page, see: (1897 Adoption of State Flag Desecration Statutes). Flsaisalie 10:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think you are incorrect in interpreting US Code Title 4 as applying here.  The relevant section of the US Code states that the code only applies if "the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America."  I think the operative word here is represent.   Although surely we are expected to see that symbol as related to the flag, I do not see that symbol as representing the US flag, and do not think that the average person would believe so either,  because the US flag is not shaped like an elephant.  


 * Image:Republicanlogo.svgAs for your original question: look at the logo. Currently, the horizontal lines created by the stars very effectively reinforce the design element of the dividing line between the blue and red fields; if we reversed the stars, this would not be as effective visually.   Similarly, note how the star points along the inner edges of the elephant follow the curve of the elephant's upper hemisphere, making for nice design all around.  Putting the flags point up would make them stick out into the edge of the elephant, ruining the visual effect.


 * Artistically, in other words, the logo would look cramped and weird if we put the stars the other way.  You are welcome to believe any theory you like for this, but Occam's razor suggests that sheer design elegance, rather than any conspiracy theory, would be the most likely reason for using stars which point downwards. Jfarber 20:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Jfarber Nice try but your theory is full of galactic size holes. Are you relying on using outsourced workers in some other country or are you relying on illegal workers for your advice? Flsaisalie 20:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I came to this page trying to find out about recently inverted stars on the Republican elephant, as a way to shed light on the inverted stars on the flag Hillary used in NH. http://www.hillaryclinton.com/blog/view/?id=21760 I have to think Hillary's flag was a mistake, as it is the only flag or flag image I have been able to find anywhere with inverted stars.

I could not find inverted Star of Bethlehem images except on the Freemason spinoff Order of the Eastern Star site referenced above. The other Star of Bethlehem images were mostly not 5-point stars, and none of the 5-point stars were pointing straight down. They either pointed up, or down at an angle. The Islamic crescent moon and star images I found were the same way and did not point straight down.

I suppose it is possible the inverted stars on the elephant (since Bush took office?) are a result of a graphic artist's redesign of the logo, and Hillary used a cheap imported flag in NH, but they look bad and do not match the American flag or any other star except the Order of the Eastern Star symbol. I guess I should ask the Clinton campaign and the GOP for explanations, but I wish I had found it on Wiki.

Putting aside all the venomous and polemic rhetoric, what is the real answer to the upside down stars? Why has nobody bothered to explain this realistically? Btw, the Medal of Honor is the same also... I don't think it has anything to do with satanism or any such conspiracy, but I am very curious - what is the REAL REASON FOR THIS?? --Topk (talk) 04:34, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

List of Venture Capital Firms
I am looking for a list of Venture Capital Firms in Canada. Would a reference desk volunteer kinldy write the list below this question? Thank you. --Parker007 19:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is a list of members of Canada's Venture Capital and Private Equity Association. Feel free to copy the list.  There may be some venture capital firms that are not members of this organization, but finding them would require considerable research.  If you need a more thorough list, consider hiring a market research firm.  You can find one here.  Marco polo 19:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is another way to research companies by industry. Marco polo 19:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Weird enclave along NI/IR border
If you'd care to glance at this google map showing a small section of the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, you'll see there's a very small enclave of County Cavan, part of the Republic, that's almost totally encircled by County Fermanagh in the Province. I'm curious as to why the Boundary Commission (Ireland) chose to do this. Now I do realise that boundaries (particularly contested ones, such as this) are often drawn where they are for a variety of mad reasons, but I can't see (from maps) why this particular little area should be the way it is. The border doesn't seem to follow any particular physical feature, roads and watercourses travel through it (crossing the border several times) in a way that seems unrelated to the border, and there's no sign (on Google's landsat photo) of any significant population centre (or anyone at all) around whose homes such a border might have been gerrymandered. There's no mention of this salient in the article of Clones, the nearest town, nor in the respective articles of the two counties concerned. There's no joy from the OS map either. So, does anyone know what this special little area is, and why the border takes such a (seemingly mad) detour? Darryl Revok 20:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * One possible explanation:"South Ulster also has a distinctive drumlin topography&mdash;a wide belt of hummocky hills, small lakes and boggy hollows&mdash;stretching from County Down to the Atlantic coast of Sligo and Donegal, causing particular distortion on the borders of Cavan, Monaghan and Fermanagh, where it opens into larger lakes and gives this county the appearance of a water wonderland. It makes for difficult access and has been a cultural and defensive barrier since prehistoric times. These drumlins defined such 'border' areas for many centuries before political units emerged."&mdash;eric 20:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Cavan was one of the counties created during the reign of Elizabeth I. The Boundary Commission, as far as I am aware, made no alterations to the historic borders, merely detached six northern counties, part of the ancient province of Ulster, from the rest of Ireland. Clio the Muse 21:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's a portion of an OS 1:50000 topo covering the area of interest (sorry about the crappy little map viewer, is there any better place to get ordnance survey maps?). The boundary does appear to follow topo lines, and interestingly, the legend tells us the star symbols in the northern part of the enclave (near Corvaghan and Clonkeelan) are "visible earthworks".&mdash;eric 22:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks - it looks like everyone's answer above is correct. The border appears to zigzag through the boggy ground between the drumlins, on each of which is just one or two farms. I guess this enclave must have been the property of some individual toff who managed (for whatever reason) to persuade Elizabeth's surveyor-of-county-boundaries that he should be in Cavan not Fermanagh. It's a shame articles like Extreme points of Ireland don't have a "narrowest place", as I figure the neck of the salient can't be much more than 250m wide.  Thanks everyone for your help. Darryl Revok 23:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The piece of land that you have identified is actually part of County Monaghan, not Cavan. Why it is not part of Fermanagh, though, I do not know. Marco polo 23:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

tape recording protocol or admissability
I am seeking written opinions or legislation on the admissability of tape recorded conversations, the specifics on when a recording would be acceptable as evidence....does this exist? Example, two parties, one is recording and voice is recorded and the other party is not aware of recording. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sparky1950 (talk • contribs) 22:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC).


 * Wikipedia cannot give a legal opinion on the admissibility of evidence.--Wetman 03:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * (after edit conflict) Wetman is correct, but we can certainly help you begin to research such issues on your own -- that's the whole point of a reference desk.


 * If you'd like to do so, you might find our article on Wiretapping a good place to start, whether or not you're asking specifically about conversations recorded over the phone; the privacy laws which cover wiretapping are not exactly the same as privacy laws which cover in-person or "hidden camera" taping, but the assumption of privacy -- and the resulting illegality of most such taping, regardless of the medium or environment in place -- is often similar. Of course, things differ by country and regime, too. In short, though: with some notable exceptions, and in most places, if it would have been reasonable to assume that you are NOT being taped, usually, taping done without a warrant is not admissible.   But note that I'm hedging -- I have no way of knowing if this applies to your case, and could not help even if I did, because IANAL... Jfarber 03:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)