Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 May 24

= May 24 =

Whats the diff?
Im thinking of studing law at university. One of my friends knows this and asked me the difference between 'unlawful' and 'illegal'. I didnt know. Any suggestions?


 * Oh dear, I had better get this over with: "unlawful" means against the law; "illegal" means a sick bird. (It's a very old joke that works better orally.) Bielle 02:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * "unlawful" is not comforming to the law; "illegal" is something directly prohibited by law. -- hello, i'm a member  |  talk to me!  02:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * So our illegal page is wrong then. Could someone who knows about these things please take a look at it? Also I think the answer would be clearer with examples.--Shantavira|feed me 06:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think that page is wrong. Usually you can replace "illegal" by "unlawful", and vice versa, without changing the meaning. But in some situations one term is much more customary than the other. Take for instance the following sentence from our chess article: "As with any move, castling is illegal if it would place the king in check." If you replace "illegal" here by "unlawful", that sentence remains perfectly understandable; it is, however, not the customarily used word here. Something contravening moral law not part of a legal system will normally not be called "illegal". Here "unlawful" is the word of choice, as in "harbouring an unlawful desire". If you say: "illegal desire", it suggests that the said desire contravenes a statutory requirement, like Section 23 of the Regulations on Thoughts and Desires. In the text of the law, outlawing something, law makers tend to prefer "unlawful", as in: "It shall be unlawful for any person who ...". Clearly, there is no difference in meaning with "illegal" here. --Lambiam Talk  07:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Similarly, computer people often speak of things as "illegal" when a more precise word would be "invalid". "Unlawful" could not be used there.  But I wouldn't be surprised if Bielle's answer was the one intended, anyway! --Anonymous, May 24, 2007, 09:25 (UTC).


 * Addition. In contrast, there is a potential difference between the words "lawful" and "legal". "Lawful" means: in accordance with the law. "Legal" can mean the same thing ("a perfectly legal business opportunity"), but it can also mean: "pertaining to law", as in "the legal system". So the word "legal" is potentially ambiguous: are "legal combatants" lawyers fighting in a court of law, or soldiers fighting in accordance to international law? To avoid that ambiguity, the term "lawful combatant" is preferred for the latter. The counterpart is then, naturally, "unlawful combatant". --Lambiam Talk  07:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Anonymous, the previous answer by Lambiam pretty much sums it up. For lawyers (which you may well be someday, my condolences in advance) the difference hinges on the potential ambiguity of the word "legal". Here's a real-world example: a while ago someone once asked me whether Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code would render enforceable a contract for stolen goods, because it contained wording that suggested protection of interests "whether legal or otherwise". I indicated this was not a winnable argument. For his interpretation to be substantiated, the wording would have to be "whether lawful or otherwise". Further complicating the matter: the word "illegal" is, in a practical sense, unambiguous.

This kind of picayune distinction is a good example for why, if you have excellent analytical skills and attention to detail, you may wish to consider applying them to something far more fascinating than law school. :). Best wishes. dr.ef.tymac 00:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * So, if a judge orders that a child must be called Herbert and the father insists on continuing to call him John, is the father doing something illegal or unlawful? - CarbonLifeForm 14:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Although I offer no comment on the facts of your hypothetical question, as indicated above, choosing between ("legal" vs "lawful") can have practical application in resolving ambiguity for real-world cases. In contrast, you would be pretty hard-pressed to find a practical application where ("illegal" and "unlawful") were interpreted to mean different things. HTH. dr.ef.tymac 15:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

battle maps
How should I go about creating battle maps for historical battle. The process certainly seems tedious. -- hello, i'm a member  |  talk to me!  02:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Map making is very tedious. It is best if someone else has already made a map of the region for you in a vectorized format. If not, then you have the double difficulty of both making a geographic map and making out the battle details. No fun. --24.147.86.187 03:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Film Festival rejection statistics
I've read that the Toronto Film Festival accepts and showcases 300-400 films every year. How many, or what percentage, of the films submitted are rejected? (compared to the number accepted)

Macbethmcduff 03:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)macbethmcduff


 * You can find statistics on the 2006 festival here. The numbers for that year amount to a selection (acceptance) percentage of 9.1%, or 1 in 11. That is only slightly less than the year before; an increase of 9% in the submissions was partially offset by an increase of 5% in the number selected for viewing. Separated out into Canadian and international submissions, the selection percentages are 12.1% for Canadian against 8.3% for international. --Lambiam Talk  12:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Soviet Foreign Relations in the Inter-war Period.
What were main factors determining the shifts and changes in Soviet foreign policy in the inter-war period? Fred said right 07:59, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It is possible to detect three distinct phases in Russian foreign policy, Fred, between the conclusion of the Civil War and the Nazi-Soviet Pact in 1939, determined in part by political struggles within Russia itself, and in part by dynamic developments in international relations and the effect these had on Soviet security. Although to begin within, and under the partial guidance of the Third International, the government of Lenin attempted to export revolution to the rest of Europe, this effectively came to a halt after the Russian defeat in the war with Poland in 1921.  Thereafter, a policy of peaceful co-existence begins to emerge, with Soviet diplomats attempting to end the country's isolation, and concluding bi-lateral arrangements with 'capitalist' governments.  Agreement was reached with Germany, Europe's other 'outcast' of the day, in the Treaty of Rapallo in 1922.  There were, however, still those in the Soviet government, most notably Leon Trotsky, who argued for the continuation of the revolutionary process, in terms of his theory of Permanent Revolution.  After Lenin's death in 1924 Trotsky and the internationalists were opposed by Josef Stalin and Nikolai Bukharin, who developed the notion of Socialism in One Country.  The foreign policy counterpart of Socialism in One Country was that of the United Front, with foreign Communists urged to enter into alliances with reformist left-wing parties and national liberation movements of all kinds.  The high point of this strategy was the partnership between the Chinese Communist Party and the nationalist Kuomintang, a policy favoured by Stalin in particular, and a source of bitter dispute between him and Trotsky.  The United Front policy in China effectively crashed to ruin in 1927, when Chiang Kai-shek massacred the native Communists and expelled all of his Soviet advisors.


 * The following year, after having defeated the left-opposition, led by Trotsky and Zinoviev, and the right-opposition, led by Bukharin, Stalin began the wholesale collectivisation of Soviet agriculture, accompanied by a major programme of planned industrialisation. This new radical phase was paralleled by the formulation of a new doctrine in the International, that of the so-called Third Period, an ultra-left switch in policy, which argued that Social Democracy, whatever shape it took, was a form of Social fascism, socialist in theory but fascist in practice.  All foreign Communist Parties-increasinngly agents of Soviet policy-were to concentrate their efforts in a struggle against their rivals in the working-class movement, ignoring the threat of real Fascism.  There were to be no united fronts against a greater enemy.  The catastrophic effects of this policy, and the negative effect it had on Soviet security, was to be fully demonstrated by the victory of Hitler in 1933, followed by the destruction of the German Communist Party, the strongest in Europe.  The Third Way and Social Fascism were quickly dropped into the dustbin of history.  Once again collaboration with other progressive elements was the key, in the form of the Popular Front, which cast the net still wider to embrace moderate bourgeois parties.


 * Hand-in-hand with the promotion of Popular Fronts, Maxim Litvinov, Commissar for Foreign Affairs between 1930 and 1939, aimed at closer alliances with western governments, and placed ever greter emphasis on collective security. The new policy led to Russia joining the League of Nations in 1934, and the subsequent conclusion of alliances with France and Czechoslovakia.  In the League the Soviets were active in demanding action against imperialist aggression, a particular danger to them after the Japanese occupation of Manchuria.  But against the rise of militant fascism and imperialism the League accompanied very little.  Indeed, in the end it was only Russia that took a stand in trying to preserve the Spanish Republic, and its Popular Front government, from the fascist rebellion of 1936.  The Munich Agreement of 1938, the first stage in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia, gave rise to Soviet fears that Russia was likely to be abandoned in a possible war with Germany.  A new cynicism and hardness entered Soviet foreign relations when Litvinov was replaced by Vyacheslav Molotov in May 1939.  Russia no longer sought collective but individual security, and the Pact with Hitler must be viewed against this background.  Clio the Muse 00:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Awesome Clio!! Fred said right 05:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It'd be a shame to lose the text. I moved it to Foreign relations of the Soviet Union. --Ghirla-трёп- 09:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Russian Civil War medal
I came across a picture of a medal from the Russian Civil War. The medal itself is a crown of thorns pierced by a sword, hanging from a black and orange stripped ribbon. I have so far been unable to trace the origin of this. Does anyone have any ideas? Fred said right 08:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I could not find any specific information on this, but if the medal does not display obvious communist symbols, it was most likely issued by the White side. A source to look at, if you can locate it in a library, is: Robert Werlich, Russian orders, decorations, and medals, including those of imperial Russia, the provisional government, the civil war, and the Soviet Union, Quaker Press (2nd ed edition 1981), ASIN B0006E60BS. Another promising source, that may however be hard to locate, is this book (in Russian). --Lambiam Talk  13:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * To add to Lambiam's post: black and orange ribbon is Ribbon of Saint George. In the course of Russian history there was/is an order of St. George, a medal of St. George, and Orden Slavy, all using the same ribbon. None of them had an image of the crown of thorns, though. So it could be Whites, or something non-Russian. Can you post a photo? That may help a lot. Cheers, Dr_Dima.


 * I believe Fred refers to the "Sign of the First Kuban (Ice) Campaign", instituted by Denikin. The crown of thorns is a traditional emblem of martyrdom; it was featured in many other awards of the White movement. More may be translated from here. Unfortunately, the coverage of the White Army in this project is skimpy. --Ghirla-трёп- 20:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ghirla is absolutely right: this is the Medal of the Ice March, arguably the greatest epic in the Russian Civil War, and the defining moment in the history of the Volunteer Army, also known as the White Guard. You will find a picture of the medal itself here .  In early 1918, with the Red Army advancing from the north, the counter-revolutionary government of Aleksei Maksimovich Kaledin, based at Rostov-on-Don, was close to collapse.  The Volunteer Army, then under the command of Lavr Kornilov, and badly outnumbered by the Reds, decided to abandon the city and march south to the Kuban, the stronghold of the Don Cossacks, and the last remaining pocket of resistence to the Communist government in Moscow.  Kornilov's retreat from the Don, with only 4000 men over the frozen stepps, was later to be known as the Ice March, and really marks the moment when a small band of volunteers, former Tsarist officers mostly, turned into a proper army.  Marching in single file, and followed by a long trail of civilians, the Whites marched day and night, avoiding railways and hostile population centres.  Those who could not endure the ordeal, the wounded and the sick, were simply left behind, many of them shooting themselves, rather than risk being taken captive by the Reds.  Anton Denikin, Kornilov's second-in-command, later recalled "We went from the dark night of spiritual slavery to unknown wandering-in search of the bluebird."  The bluebird, in Russian legend, is the symbol of hope.  The whole March was to last from February to mid-May 1918.  Kornilov himself was killed in April, during an attack on Ekaterinador, capital of the Don Soviet Republic, whereupon Denikin assumed command.  Hearing of the death of Kornilov, Lenin told the Moscow Soviet "It can be said with certainty that, in the main, the civil war has ended."  It had not: it was really only the beginning, and Denikin's little army was soon to swell to 100,000 strong, and come close to destroying the Revolution.  All the survivors of the Ice March were awarded the crown of thorns medal.  The details of this episode can be found in A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution, 1891-1924 by Orlando Figes (pp. 562-5), and The Russian Civil War by Evan Mawdsley (pp. 21-2). And Ghirla is again right in his assertion that we need much better coverage of the whole history of the White Army.  Clio the Muse 23:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * That looks like a start for an article on the Ice March, there. --Anonymous, May 25, 2007, 00:04 (UTC).


 * OK. I'll start this in a day or so, unless someone else takes up the baton.  The only trouble is that there already exists a stub with the title of the Great Siberian Ice march, a quite different thing altogether.  Clio the Muse 01:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ice marches seem to have been popular at the time; cf. Ice Cruise of the Baltic Fleet. --Ghirla-трёп- 09:52, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Even more, awesome. I look forward to seeing this, Clio.  Fred said right 05:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Very nice work again, Clio. You are running WP:RDAC singlehandedly at the moment. Rockpock  e  t  03:11, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Finding shareholders of companies
Hi all, I was wondering if it's possible to find who the major shareholders are of large companies, such as IBM? I did notice the the ExxonMobil article has a list of their largest shareholders (unfortunately the citation is missing, so I don't know where that info is from). Thanks. -Akamad 09:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If you go to the 'investors' page of any major listed company they will often have a news/reports section. I think there are certain rules governing making the public aware of major shareholders, so you might be in luck there. For example Exxon has an investor relations website (http://ir.exxonmobil.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=115024&p=irol-irhome). From a very quick look I couldn't see a 'major shareholders' section, but some of the firms I shadow-trade in often release news saying X has upped (or reduced) their share in the firm to Y%. Hopefully someone will clarify things for you further! ny156uk 15:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Clio Muse and the weimar republic
Dear Clio Muse,

I got an A for my essay on the Weimar Republic thanks to you, again the only one in my class. My history teacher says my work is improving tremendously!!!! Thanx ever so. Im going to bring all my history questions to you (snigger!). when I came here before someone gave me a row for not putting my question for you on your talk page but I dont know where that is. Please show me. Thanx again. YOU ARE COOL.

Yours sincerely,

Kathy Burns


 * To find the talk page of a user who has put a signature after their message, you can click on the (usually blue) user name, like in my case "Lambiam", which will bring you to that user's personal page. If you then click the tab with the caption "discussion" near the top of the page, you are at their talk page. (I also have included a direct link " Talk " to my talk page in my signature, but Clio has not. But I wouldn't know why whoever gave you a row. I think you are perfectly welcome to put your questions here, so that all of us (well, almost all of us, apparently) can also enjoy the answers. --Lambiam Talk  09:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * @ Lambiam: Kathy is referring to the admonition archived here. (Note: originally the question posed by Kathy did not include the subject matter of the question in the topic header, perhaps the reason for the scolding. I added that after Kathy had been chided. HTH.)dr.ef.tymac 23:59, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Well done, Kathy, and here I am in blue Clio the Muse 23:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Kathy, and congrats on the essay!


 * While I am sure that Clio would answer your questions on her talk page I hope you will continue to post your questions here for several reasons...1, We all like to read Clio's answers. 2, Other users may have additional info or perspectives that improve and expand on Clio's. 3, Clio may be busy and unable to answer your question. 4, There may come a time that I know something Clio doesn't know and when I then give a great and insightful answer she will be so impressed with my erudition that she decides to abandon her life and come live with me in the wilds of Alaska where we can live in a small cabin with a fireplace, several frozen moose for food and spend the rest of our days writing a definitive, multi-volume work on the rise and fall of Western civilization!-- killing sparrows  (chirp!) 16:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Killing sparrows, how can I resist such an offer? All that frozen moose-lovely!  We shall call our joint history Twilight in Alaska.  Wait a minute-has that not already been done?  Clio the Muse 23:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Silver Certificate value

 * Generally speaking, in today's value, what would a typical 1957 $1 Silver Certificate be worth?
 * Are they easily obtainable if one wanted to collect?
 * Where could one get a quanity of 100 from?--Doug talk 14:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ebay [www.ebay.com] has over a thousand for sale. Just enter "silver certificate" in the search box. Recent completed sales show lots of one dollar silver certificates selling for, surprisingly, 1 cent to 10 cents. The catch is that the seller wants 3.99 or so for "shipping and handling." Otherwise you could buy low and exchange them to one dollar each at your nearest bank. Crisp uncirculated bills naturally will go for more. See if the seller will give you a deal on "shipping and handling." These were printed in vast quantities and many people save some when they were replaced. Crisp uncirculated ones from the 1930's go for a few dollars. Check "completed sales" to see what they go for. Check the ratings of the dealer to see if previous customers are satisfied and email the dealer to clarify what you are getting and what all costs will be, and whether the shipment is insured.If one adds up the figures in our Silver certificate article, there were 5,404,996,000 produced. Of these, 5,373,040,000 were dated 1957. The article says the U.S. government stopped redeeming them for actual silver after the silver dollar gained a value way over one dollar, and eventually sold large numbers of the notes to collectors, so there is unlikely to ever be a shortage of the more recent and common issuances. The series 1935 notes may have been printed as late as the 1960's.  Edison 15:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Great information on the Silver Certificates. Most useful leads. Thanks!--Doug talk 16:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Although this isn't 100% on topic, those ebay auctions are like a trap for people who don't look at shipping rates. Time and time again, I see two identical products, one with $5 shipping and one with $20 shipping, and the closing price on the latter is barely any less than the former, but it means the winner of the second one pays $15 or so more than the first. So if you are going to buy from ebay, always look at the combined price, and look for combined shipping as well. --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 17:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not too much of a paper money guy (I deal with coins). However, generally an items value depends on condition. If your note is crisp unc and in a good series, you be in for a pretty good payday. If your note is opposite of these things, then it's more than likely worth face value. A good place for paper money questions (besides here!) is . - Thanks, Hoshie 11:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Niger/Nigeria
If someone was from Nigeria, then they would be called a Nigerian. If someone is from Niger they are called....?


 * I see where you're going, and NO. The correct answer is  Nigerien, with an "e".  Pastordavid 15:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * (after edit conflict) From our article Niger, it looks like the answer is Nigerien, or possibly Nigerois. No offence, but you could have found that out for yourself by looking at the article in less time than it took you to post your question.  The moral of this is, search first. --Richardrj talkemail 15:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, "Niger" is usually pronounced by people who are knowledgeable about the country much as it is in French: nee ZHEHR (IPA (rhotic): ni 'ʒɛɹ, (non-rhotic): ni 'ʒɛə—you need not attempt the French "r").  Similarly, the best pronunciation of "Nigerien" is nee zheh ree EN (IPA: ni ʒɛ ɹi 'ɛn).  Marco polo 18:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Genealogy War Records
I understand that war records are available for a short time free through Ancestory. In the past I have used this throught the local library to do family history - free. Would these war records STILL be available through a library that offered this free previously; into the future past this "introductory" free period?--Doug talk 16:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * My suggestion would be to try the URL and see what happens. Bielle 17:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Tried that, however all I get is "Server Error" and I can not seem to connect to "Ancestory.Com". Perhaps an expert in genealogy will know if these war records (i.e. Civil War) will be available through a public library - for free?--Doug talk 17:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Which "Civil War" and which country's library system? There are a lot of both out there. Bielle 18:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If you are looking for US "civil war records", I typed exactly that phrase into Google, with the quotation marks, and accessed the second site which came up. It led me to Ancestry.com via . Perhaps there was some sort of overload when you tried. Some of these records appear to be both free and on-line, others are on-line for pay, and still others are only available in paper form, for pay.  I hope this gets you started. Bielle 18:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Your linked worked alright. Must have been an overload earlier. Thanks!--Doug talk 18:59, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

It's ancestry.com, not ancestory.com. Corvus cornix 20:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That's true, but ancestory redirects to ancestry; I checked the WHOIS records yesterday and they're owned by the same company, MyFamily.com, Inc. -- LarryMac  | Talk  20:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Blackmore's Style
Anybody happen to know how to get my hair (which is long) to excatly like Ritchie Balckmore's in the 70's? I think teasing is involved but i dont know how EXACTLY to make it like his.Jk31213 18:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * (That's what we are lacking -a Hairdressing Ref Desk! VERY SMALL JOKE, THAT, very small. ) I took a look at the photos on his web site. In most of them he is wearing a hat. To get his style, without a wig, you need long hair that is also naturally curly. The other option is to spend a lot of time with a very good hairdresser and very strong hair spray.  Even with considerable talent with curling irons and hot rollers, you'd have a daily job to keep this up. I suspect he was born with the right hair texture and amount of curl. Some people just are lucky that way. Bielle 18:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Well just look at Google images. I saw him there and he's similar to Harry dunn in Dumb and Dumber. Either Blackmore's hair or Dunn's is what im going for. It'll look idiotic but hey...its culture day!Jk31213 18:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Payment for digital info
How much do people pay for digital information (whether on a data storage device or not) per month/year/lifetime on average, e.g. music (CDs, iTunes and other services), movies (DVDs, over the internet), games (for computer, console, cell phones), radio (Sirius, XM and possibly more), T.V. (cable, satellite, & pay T.V.), just out of curiosity, thanks, Jeffrey.Kleykamp 19:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * All people everywhere, or the mythical average person in a specific place? -- LarryMac | Talk  19:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Europe, USA and places like that, not including people who don't even have electricity, Jeffrey.Kleykamp 19:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * There are so many parameters that are included in this question that I don't know that anyone can give you a coherent answer. Just for a start, you list hardware (e.g. computers, game consoles, cell phones), but incompletely. TVs have consoles, too, for example, and then there is all the equipment for listening to the music once you have the data. Costs, interest and availability vary wildy across the globe. Data is also packaged in different ways that are largely dependent upon where you live. Things change so rapidly that there are few "lifetimes" yet to be measured against. Any extrapolation from current costs, even if a meaningful figure could be derived for "costs now", would be pure fantasy.  Having said all that, I hope there is an editor out there thinking: "Now, wait a just minute. If we looked at this here, and that there . . " who can come up with an answer for you. Bielle 15:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC).


 * The hardware that I mention is part of my example 'cause I said "e.g." before them, see I listed example digital information then, in the parentheses, I listed the methods of accessing the digital information which would therefore be included in the price, e.g. you have to pay 99 cents for a song over iTunes, then an average person in the USA buys 8 songs per month (remember it's just an example) and therefore pays $7.92 per months for songs over iTunes not including taxes (I assume it's not including taxes). Jeffrey.Kleykamp 21:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Napoleon's greatest moment
What was the highlight of napoleons military career? 86.132.1.138 20:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The Battle of Austerlitz is one answer. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 20:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * His snowball fight (cinematically anyway).--Pharos 20:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought it was the Piñata Boondoggle. Anchoress 23:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we let the man speak for himself: "The Battle of Abensberg, the maneuver of Landshut and the Battle of Eggmuhl, all in Austria, were the boldest most brilliant, the ablest maneuvers of Napoleon." You will find these words in The Memoirs of Napoleon, composed while he was in exile on the island of St Helena. The battles mentioned were all part of the War of the Fifth Coalition. Clio the Muse 01:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * A tiny quibble: Landshut is in Bavaria, not Austria. Marco polo 16:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It is indeed, Marco. You will find the man you need to take this point up with here.  Do not hold your breath waiting for him to answer, though!  Clio the Muse 22:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The Napoleon Snowball fight? =P --Wirbelwind ヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 18:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

question about APA style
If I have no author, but a translator--do I cite title/translated by / publication, sorting by the title? (even if the translation may be famous?) How about ancient texts like The Analects of Confucius (which are probably not by Confucius), Mencius (which is the name of the work as well as of its (arguable???) author) or parts of the bible (esp. when it's about a particular translation, e.g., King James Version!)? When I'm citing Mencius - do I format that word in italics (indicating it's the name of the work) or not (indicating it's the author)? ... Thanks a lot. --Ibn Battuta 23:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC) PS: I hope this is the right forum, I'm counting on some US-American students of English... or whoever else who may be using APA style...


 * In terms of the bible, there are some pretty standard methods. If you will be using one translation throughout, note it the first time you use it: John 3:16 (King James Version will be used throughout).  If you are using a variety of translations, it is best to cite each one using the standard abbreviations in parenthesis --> John 3:16 (KJV).  Additional info can be added to the bibliography, especially for newer translations where there are important copyright and publication info.  Pastordavid 01:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yes, I'm asking about the bibliography, that's why I was mentioning publishers etc. --Ibn Battuta 02:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC) (PS: In fact, in the case of the bible I'm using online sources, so the publishing issue gets a bit more complicated there anyways... but well, I think I've understood the guidelines for online resources at least...)