Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 November 6

= November 6 =

Source of cucumbers and other vegetables sold in Israel
Can any user please tell me what percentage of cucumbers, tomatoes, marrows, green peppers and other vegetables sold in Israel originate from Arab sources? (I am referring to a NON-SHEMITTAH year.)Thank you. Simonschaim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.233.53 (talk) 08:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If your interest stems from Shmittah, you probably are also interested in the percentage of produce that's imported, which would be a lot easier to determine, given that no-one would have any reason to track whether produce comes from Israeli farmers of Jewish or Arab origin. --Dweller 16:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Poster sized world map
Hi, I'm looking to buy a poster sized world map to put on my office wall. I would like something that is easily readable and nice looking, but with a lot of detail, subdivisions of large countries (US, Russia, India, China etc) in particular. My main fields of interest are economics and history and so climate/natural geography is not as important as borders and cities, but information is always good. I prefer shape distortions to size distortions (I'd rather avoid approaching the Mercator projection). Preferrably I would buy it from a Norwegian or European online store, but I guess I can afford shipping from the US as well. The question is: Any recommendations? Thanks a lot! Jørgen 12:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The best maps, in my opinion, are those produced by National Geographic. They are the most accurate, most detailed and most attractive, I believe. Their maps can be viewed and ordered here. A U.S. firm that has very good maps is called simply A Maps and Graphics Co. You might also try the International Map Trade Association to find a European dealer. — Michael J  13:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ordnance Survey offer an excellent range of large wall maps of the world in various projections, including the Eckert IV correct size projection. These show country names and boundaries, large towns and cities and various other things.  The OS are based in the UK so are European.GaryReggae 13:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The Eckert IV (equal-area) map GaryReggae describes can be found here. National Geographic uses the Winkel Tripel projection, which has some area distortion as part of a strategy to minimize the sum of area, distance, and direction distortions ("the only portions...that suffer from severe area distortion are the polar regions near the east and west edges of the map").  Wareh 15:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Raven Maps makes some very attractive maps. i haven't seen their world map face-to-face, but their US maps are quite awesome. Pfly 03:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks all! I'll look into your suggestions. Jørgen 13:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Dardanelles Campaign
What would have been the outcome if the allied campaign of 1915-6 had succeeded? 217.42.105.98 13:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The outcome would have been a success for the allied campaign of 1915-1916. Anything beyond that is a matter of opinion, not fact - which is not appropriate for the reference desk. --  k a i n a w &trade; 14:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The principal objective of the whole campaign was to open a supply line to Russia. It was also supposed to be a way of ending the deadlock on the Western Front. There were some hopes, moreover, that the Ottoman Empire, which had joined the Central Powers in October 1914, would be knocked out of the war altogether. Lord Kitchener, Secretary of State for War in the cabinet of Herbert Asquith, was even more sanguine. In March 1915 he told Sir Ian Hamilton, appointed to command the ground forces, that "If the fleet gets through, Constantinople will fall of its own accord, and you will have won not a battle, but the war." The whole thing was based on the most unrealistic and ill-thoughr out strategic assumptions. First and foremost, even if a supply route had been opened to Russia by naval operations alone this, in 1915, would have been no more than a nominal gain, because Britain and France themselves were short of the supplies, particularly shells, that their eastern ally so desperately needed. Second, it is difficult to work out exactly why Kitchener and others assumed that the fall of Constantionople would have led to the defeat of Germany. If Turkey had been knocked out of the war, and there is no guarantee of that, it would only have lessened the burden on the Germans, allowing them to devote additional resources to offensive operations in the western or eastern fronts. The allies had not sufficient troops to open up a new front in the Balkans. Even after such a front was established at Salonika no result was achieved until the closing weeks of the war, when the Germans had already been defeated in the west. Clio the Muse 23:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Tower Ravens
Can anyone trace the origin of the legend of the ravens in the Tower of London? Your article says it is unkown by I was hoping one of you might have managed to dig a little deeper. Thanks. Margaret Campbell —Preceding comment was added at 13:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The origin of legends is always hard to establish but Dr. Parnell, the official historian of the Tower of London, seems to think that it was a Victorian creation and not as old as we think. Article on this from the Guardian Lord Foppington 17:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * However, the connection of the legend of the head of Bran with London, possibly Tower Hill, appears to go back farther... AnonMoos 17:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, the first written reference to ravens being kept in the Tower dates no further back that the 1890s. If we go a little further back than that the Tower first established its place in the Gothic imagination with the publication in 1841 of The Tower of London, an historical novel by Harrison Ainsworth. It included an illustration by George Cruikshank of large dark birds, possibly ravens, gathering around the scaffold erected for the execution of Lady Jane Grey. This, in turn, is likely to have been a reflection of the folk tradition that associated croaking ravens with death. It would seem that as the popularity of the Tower began to grow the keepers decided to exploit the public's appetite for the macabre by, first, erecting a plaque in 1866 to the spot on Tower Green where the scaffold is supposed to have stood, a complete fiction, for there never was a permanent scaffold; and second, by amplifying on the raven stories. The Tower from Within by George Younghusband, published in 1919, was the first to describe the ravens in detail. By this time the Yeomen Warders were in the practice of telling visitors that the raven used to gather at the site of the scaffold to pick at the severed heads. The earliest written reference to the legend that Britain will fall if the ravens leave the Tower dates to a letter published in Country Life in February 1955, which probably means this 'ancient' story was invented sometime during the Second World War. Clio the Muse 00:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

To become a writer/author - a successful one!
I've been writing for 4 years... my own novel. created my own fantasy world, in similar style to that of Lord of the Rings and Forgotten realms. Though I would never set my work up against others or compare my work with other published works, at least not to anyone but myself. And as fantasy is a very popular literature-genre and many famous works has been done in this genre, it will be/is a real challenge. I enjoy it. Now in my young years, it is not something i spend all my time with but i work on it more in periods when i feel the call, so to say. So i guess you can call me a "wanna-be-writer"

And I'm far away from being finished, and it will be many many years yet before i complete it coz i am in no rush about it, and i'm extremely detailed in my work. I know i have a special talent for writing, I found that out from an early age, and i am quite confident about my writing-abilities. But i have no education whatsoever on writing, and I am all self-taught. I don't even know if author-schools or the likes excists where one can get education in this. If so, it could maybe have been of interest to me in order to improve and expand my writing, and learn new aspects of it.

But anyway, what i am am eager to find out here is if there are anyone out there that reads this that has an OBJECTIVE view or opinion on how difficult it is to go on and actually get a book published, and potentially from there become a well-known writer whose books will be sold and read all over the world?

I mean, you really don't have to tell me that i need to be a good writer and write a good, intriguing story. Coz that is plain enough - a writer has to fully deliver a worthy product, and that is all up to ME to achieve that.

But let's say i do deliver an absolute complete product, then where do i go from there when I stand with all these pages in my hands? I must seek out a book-organisation/publisher of sorts to have them read my work and then judge if it is good enough? So will the whole thing be in the hands of ONE person who reads it and then judges it?? If its thought not good enough, then I would just get my work back before being sent away with a clap on me shoulder? And if it is thought good enough to publish, then they'll ... eh, just say ok, and start produce it? I doubt it is that straight forward, but as you can see, i am completely green on how to venture forth with a complete product, and what and where to go... or what to expect.

And I'll wager there are many people like me trying to write, and hoping to "break through", and what is the case with those people? Are most people cut off, being told their product is not good enough, and that they simpley have to come back when and if they can come up with a better product?

Statisticly speaking, how many writers fails before ONE succeeds, to at least some extent? Very few writers get really big i know, and though i know little about this, i guess the average writer isn't very famous or big-selling.

I dream not at all about becoming a writer simply for some stupid hope to become a famous one, which very few does anyhow. I guess I dream about it because I just like to write, and the idea of being able to show my work to people in the end compels to me. I liek the thought of my writing being read by as many as possible, and that my own-created fantasy-realm becomes something that all can involve themselves in and become fascinated with...

I hope there's someone on the references who sits with some knowledge about this :)

Krikkert7 15:51, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * As far as becoming a great writer - I continually see the same advice: write. The more you write, the better you will get.  As far as getting a book published, you just have to keep shoving it into the hands of publishers.  I don't know of any real publishers that accept manuscripts - but they actually do accept them, or they wouldn't have much to publish.  A recent trend I've noticed is getting one of those vanity publishers to publish a condensed version of your novel and use that to send to publishers.  They might think it is a book at first and start reading it - but then they may think it has already been published and trash it.  If you have no interest in money, you can go directly to a vanity publisher.  You are guaranteed that the book will be published because they don't care who or what they publish.  However, you won't make a lot of money off the deal. --  k a i n a w &trade; 15:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Check out Novel & Short Story Writer's Market. If I were you, I would ask a successful fantasy novelist how to do it. They might not answer, but what have you got to lose? --Milkbreath 16:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Based on the style in which you wrote this question, I'd say the best advice, more important even than writing more, is to read more, and to read fiction that has earned a high reputation among critics. I assume you are young, and I hope you will not be insulted if I say that your goal should be to keep reading and reading until you possess a close enough acquaintance with English usage and idiom that you would not dream of writing "education on writing" or "excists."  (These are humble matters, but along the way, if you do have a knack, you will also pick up the art of narrative.)  You may only aspire to publish in a genre that is relatively tolerant of stories whose rough edges haven't been smoothed away by good editing, plausible dialogue, etc., but still, reading in great quantity from authors who really did write well will give you an edge.  Here is a reasonable list of novels from the period from 1923 on, which you could supplement by reading widely in the classic 19th-century English and American novelists and short story writers.  Wareh 16:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You will also need an agent if you want any chance of being published, and getting a good agent is almost as hard, if not harder, than getting a publisher. It is extremely rare for a book that just comes in the door, without a known agent's recommendation, to get out of the "slush pile" where anyone in the company might read it -or not- in weeks, months or years -or not at all. I suggest taking some courses, both in writing itself and in how to approach a publisher. That way, you may get to know some published authors who sometimes take and often teach such courses. As for getting your manuscript back, that will only happen if you send repacking materials, stamps and an address label. I know; I've worked in editorial in a publishing house. Bielle 17:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * See also Reference desk archive/Humanities/December 2005 and Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 May 14. --Lambiam 17:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Just as a suggestion: force any friends and family you have to read it. Listen to their suggestions with an open mind. Works conceived in isolation usually suffer for it. --24.147.86.187 17:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * An important thing is to keep trying! Some authors try for years before they get a single book published. There is no other way.  Most authors do not experience immediate success like J.K. Rowling.  Most of the greatest books ever written are the result of diligence. Most are rejected many times, perhaps even hundreds of times, before anything happens. Just keep on trying, and eventually you will see success.

204.113.50.74 18:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)Floodbud

Yes, keep trying! No one ever succeeded by giving up. Don't work in a vacuum. There are lots of writing courses out there - Google "writing class" "creative writing". Make sure they're reputable, though - there are lots of really dodgy ones. Try critting groups too - write short stories and have them critiqued: zoetrope is one, critters is another.

I like that you're willing to spend time on the details - writing is a slow accretive process - as long as you don't fiddle so much with your prose it becomes all tangled and messy.

And, actually, I believe even JK Rowling was rejected by many publishers before her first book was bought, so take heart from that too.

Adambrowne666 20:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If you are on MySpace, I'd urge you to look up "Bad Monkeys Matt Ruff", which is the id of Matt Ruff, whose most recent book is called Bad Monkeys. He started a series of posts on his blog there entitled "Tips for aspiring writers" and since he is a published author, I figure he knows a thing or two about what it takes.  -- LarryMac  | Talk  23:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * One of my friends is also an aspiring writer and has been sending her (completed) books to several publishers. It does take a lot of effort, so an important part of becoming a writer is persistence and patience. It also pays to look at the fine print of anything you apply for, for example competitions, agents, manuscript assessors, etc., because there are some people out there who ruin the reputation of the trustworthy people out there. Look at http://www.sfwa.org/ for some encouragement and company, and especially http://www.sfwa.org/beware/ for warnings. Steewi 05:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

White Rose
The Last Days of Sophie Scholl was shown on British TV last night. I would like to know more about her background and that of her brother Hans. Your article on the White Rose is OK but I would really like to know what led them to their act of resistence. The flim mentions that their father was an opponent of the Nazis though not much detail is give. What else was significant? Bel Carres 15:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This gives some detail. You might find more information at  (and the linked pages),,  and this (though it's hard to read).  Corvus cornix 19:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Their father, Robert, the one-time mayor of Forchtenberg am Kocher, was alert to the dangers of the Nazi regime from the beginning, describing Hitler as the Pied Piper of Hamelin, who would guide Germany to destruction. Although Sophie and Hans both joined Nazi youth organisations with initial enthusiasm, Robert continued to urge that they should aspire to live in "uprightness and freedom of spirit." Hans was the first to realise that these things were being severely restricted by his membership of the Hitler Youth. Sophie, too, under the influence of her father and others, became disillusioned with the League of German Girls. Hans' own disenchantement was complete with his temporary imprisonment in 1937 for his association with the non-Nazi Jungenschaft, which also had an impact on his sister, as did the shock of Kristallnacht in November, 1938. It was Hans who took the final step, from personal disengagement to active resistance, as a result of the crimes he had witnessed while serving as a medic in Russia. In February 1943, just before his court apperance before the reptilian Roland Freisler, Hans wrote on his prison wall "Hold out in defiance of all despotism", words of Goethe, often repeated to him by his father. Clio the Muse 00:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

help!!
It's very important for me to find other language schools, like the "American Language Center" in Florence. I can't find any!!

I'm going to Florence for an interview as an English teacher but it's very important for me to find other schools too. Please help. Thank you!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.2.131.176 (talk) 16:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Try this link. Marco polo 17:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you! Perfect :)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.234.76.228 (talk) 18:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Restaurant Etiquette: Napkins
In most restaurants, I have noticed that waiters always serve your food with a napkin over their right arm. Is this simply a matter of convenience for cleaning up spills, or is it rooted in old etiquette rules?

Thanks, 204.113.50.74 18:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)Floodbud


 * I was told too many years ago to remember when/where/why that the practice began in the middle ages. Diners (not waiters) kept a rag of some sort on their left arm or shoulder for wiping their right hand (the hand used to eat) on.  The image of a person with a rag draped over the left arm persisted as an icon for a good place to eat. --  k a i n a w &trade; 18:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Has there ever been a coup against the USA government?
If not, why not? 64.236.121.129 18:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge. I imagine that people here were generally happy and enjoyed there lives. Jack THE Pumpkin KING 18:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Happiness has nothing to do with a coup, and it is ridiculous to imply that all Americans were "generally happy and enjoy there lives" throughout the last 300 years. Coups are about a small minority taking power and being able to exercise it; it is almost never an even popularly supported in great degrees. --24.147.86.187 21:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * No, there hasn't. The revolution that replaced the British local government with an independent government was a revolution, not a coup d'état. Since then, a coup has not been possible because the power of government is spread among three highly separate branches with the least powerful being the most visible. To be effective, a coup must overthrow and shut down both Congress and the Supreme Court and then take control of the Presidency. Of course, maintaining military control during all of that is very important and difficult to do. -- k a i n a w &trade; 18:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is, by the way, one of the many, many reasons that centralization of power in the executive branch is a scary thing. --24.147.86.187 21:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

that's a good answer, and arguably every presidential assassination is like a visible "coup" - it doesn't get the coupers into power or anything, but it feels like the government has been overthrown. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.234.76.228 (talk) 18:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The Whiskey Rebellion and the American Civil War are probably the two that came closest. The Business Plot didn't get very far.  Corvus cornix 19:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The adoption of the Constitution was certainly a brilliant coup, if not a successful coup d'état against the then government&mdash;as scholars such as Charles A. Beard and John Burgess have classed it.&mdash;eric 19:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * In such cases, it is important to note that historians have a highly flexible use of language. The last Congressional election has been termed a "coup".  Does that mean it was actually a coup?  Of course not.  But, you'll find many scholars who refer to it as one. --  k a i n a w &trade; 19:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, hyperbole and equivocation have rhetorical uses.&mdash;eric 21:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The Newburgh conspiracy came close, though that wasn't the USA as we know it. --Milkbreath 19:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * But the idea has given novelists and filmmakers plenty of fodder. One of the best of the genre is Seven Days in May, which may have been "inspired by the clash between General Curtis LeMay and President John F. Kennedy. It is suspected that LeMay, furious after the Cuban missile crisis for not being allowed to use his atomic bombs, talked to some of his staff about removing the President from power".  --  JackofOz 19:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Well there has been the White House coup. Keria 20:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The US has since the 18th century had a relatively strong tradition of at least the apperance of democratic political activity as its legitimizing political force. It is also a country with strong traditions of decentralized federal government (three branches) as well as further decentralization among state governments (see Federalism in the United States). This combination of political traditions and divided power makes something like an explicit coup very difficult, though in other more limited ways it is possible for a small number of people to come into great unchecked power (as has happened at a few moments in the past and present). Could we imagine potential scenarios where a coup would be possible? Sure—there are plenty of ways in which one can imagine such a thing happening, especially since when the various branches of the federal government disagree with each other it is not always clear whose will is going to take precedence or how it will be enforced. But the system is (purposely) set up so that such situations are going to be rare, and even if the federal government was completely compromised in such a way it is unclear that the state governments would acquiesce. The US is not really a country you would want to try and run via coup; you'd hit resistance and snags all the way through, it would be easier just to wave the bloody flag and get the Courts, Congress, etc. on your side and then attempt to enact your policies as legitimate, which is exactly what the dream of the "permanent Republican majority" of someone like Karl Rove was really about. --24.147.86.187 21:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Emperor Norton is a case of possible coup, even if it went unrecognised by the government of the time. Steewi 05:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * "According to Newsweek, Homeland Security Secretary, Tom Ridge, was given the task of finding a rationale for postponing the Presidential election in 2004. "A most public coup plot" outlines "a series of moves toward a soft coup, "soft", because the intent is to continue in power without the use of force." During Richard Nixon's first term as president (1969-1973), I. F. Stone's Weekly wrote an editorial that Nixon was thinking about using the civil rights turmoil as an excuse to "postpone" the 1972 election. --Wetman 07:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's what Newsweek actually reported: "Ridge's department last week asked the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel to analyze what legal steps would be needed to permit the postponement of the election were an attack to take place. Justice was specifically asked to review a recent letter to Ridge from DeForest B. Soaries Jr., chairman of the newly created U.S. Election Assistance Commission. Soaries noted that, while a primary election in New York on September 11, 2001, was quickly suspended by that state's Board of Elections after the attacks that morning, 'the federal government has no agency that has the statutory authority to cancel and reschedule a federal election.'" Soaries proposed that Ridge seek emergency legislation from Congress empowering him to reschedule the election."
 * Hardly the makings of a coup d'etat. -- Mwalcoff 23:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I seem to recall Gore Vidal suggesting that the National Security Act of 1947 was part of a coup through the subversion of the constitution. DuncanHill 23:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Enlightenment despotism
Why the following monarchs considered "Enlightenment despotism"? and the following are Frederick the Great of Prussia, Joseph II of Austria and Catherine the Great of Russia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.132.172 (talk) 23:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see Enlightened absolutism with links to the various monarchs involved. The short answer is that they were inspired by the ideas on the arts and society generated by the Enlightenment; thought about reform, even if their thoughts often took little practical form, and corresponded with Voltaire.  Of the three Joesph was probably the most active in the concrete steps he took to bring his ramshackle state into the modern world.  Oh yes, I almost forgot; enlightened they aspired to be; despots they certainly were!  Clio the Muse 01:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Myths and legends of Iraq
Are/were there any myths or legends (or propaganda) that contributed to nationalism in Iraq, particularly under the rule of Saddam Hussein? I've been hard pressed to find anything other than tidbits about the Iraq War. Thanks for the help. --71.117.39.240 23:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The context in which such ideas have been at work would be suggested in articles Romantic nationalism and Founding myth. a founding myth for modern Iraq would need to provide an alternative to the Ottomans. Saddam Hussein made some explicit references to Saladin, whose Kurdish origins were downplayed. The Iraqi revolt against the British in 1920 was the first overt spark of modern nationalism, now considerably mythologised. --Wetman 07:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Saddam was fond of considering himself the successor to Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, who destroyed Jewish Jerusalem and expelled Jews from Judah, just the way Saddam wished he could also do... AnonMoos 09:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for those links, they've been very helpful! Anything else anyone was able to find? --71.117.36.40 19:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)