Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 October 11

= October 11 =

Is there an advanced search engine?
I am looking for a history on English women and chocolate between the 15th and 18th centuries. Especially women of nobility or higher rank. Is there some kind of advanced search that I can do in order to find a link between these subjects because the search engine only looks up the first word, then the second, and so on. I'm doing research on it for a paper and was hoping to use the bibliographies for further research. Thank you for your help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.162.137.78 (talk) 01:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It would make more sense to ask this at the computing ref desk. DirkvdM 08:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Skip the 15th and 16th centuries, when there was no chocolate in England, and jump to the court of Charles I. I've just read an anecdote about Tobie Matthew, preparing the new chocolate for Queen Henrietta Maria, and absent-mindedly drinking it all up himself, as a bit of comedy; I added it to the Wikipedia article. It came to England from Spain, in the wake of the ill-starred "Spanish Match". There are several books on the history of chocolate: The True History of Chocolate, by Sophie D. and Michael D. Coe, has gone to a second edition, amazon.com says. There's no reference to chocolate in my four-volume incomplete edition of Samuel Pepys's diary (but it couldn't have been omitted). Sir John Denham’s wife was reported to have been poisoned by a dish of chocolate, at the bidding of the Duchess of York, according to a note in Andrew Marvell, by Augustine Birrell (p. 130). Try googling "history of chocolate" with the quotation marks! -Wetman 08:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Have you tried Google Scholar? -- Mwalcoff 23:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Bengali-Canadians politicians
How many Bengali-Canadians politicians are participating in the Ontario election? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.53.159 (talk) 02:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Electricity rationing in Britain during WWII
According to Timeline_of_World_War_II, during WWII the British began to ration electricity. What exactly does that mean? Did they have brown outs, or times of the day that were blacked out, or what? --24.147.86.187 03:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I remember seeing in a sixties or seventies British tv series that people had to feed a metre in the hallway with coins to get electricity. That's not really rationing, though. DirkvdM 08:19, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No, coin-operated electricity meters were commonplace here in the UK until very recently, they have now mainly been replaced with meters that are topped up using a smart card or plastic key that has to be topped up at a terminal in a local shop. These 'prepayment' meters are commonly used either for flats/shared residences or anywhere people don't live for long or for customers that have failed to pay their bills, prepayment ensures that they have to pay up.  With regard to the rationing, I am not sure, it could be related to the 'blackouts' where people were encouraged not to use lights in order to avoid the light being spotted at night by the enemy. --GaryReggae 11:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think (no references to hand) that electricity was rationed in certain areas by periodic power-cuts (we have power-cuts, not brown outs in Britain) - domestic use would be cut at times of peak industry demand in order to maintain industrial output, which was vastly more important to national survival than domestic lighting etc. The times of the power-cuts would be announced in local papers or by posters. Coal (at the time much more widely used domestically than it is now) was also rationedhttp://groups.google.com/group/alt.folklore.science/msg/25223e688d9e74ec?dmode=source&output=gplain, and people were encouraged to have fewer & shallower baths in order to reduce the amount of fuel used by water-treatment works. DuncanHill 12:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Note that a Brownout (electricity) is not a powercut per se. A brown out is a temporary dip in the voltage. I am not sure of the formal definition - though I believe that there is one - but I think that the greater the dip, the shorter the duration. We are talking here of electricity going missing for under 0.1 seconds here. -- SGBailey 20:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed. I have always suspected that we say powercut rather than blackout precisely because we already had something else called a blackout, and they were both common, annoying things in the same timeperiod. 130.88.140.43 17:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Electricity rationing began in the summer of 1942&mdash;based on a points system consumers were allocated a certain number of units for all uses during a certain time period. I can't find any references as to deliberate cut-offs or the amount of power each household could use, but during the coal shortage during the harsh winter of 1946–7 there were planned blackouts. Almost daily an announcement would be read over the 8 A.M. news broadcast concerning which areas were to lose power, followed shortly by a blackout.&mdash;eric 19:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There were also "rota" (scheduled) power cuts by area during the coal miners' strikes of 1973/4 and 1978/9. During the 1973/4 strikes, all tv broadcasts closed down at 10.30 p.m. in order to save energy; the unexpected consequence of having nothing to watch on tv, and going to bed early to keep warm, was a baby boom nine months later! -- Arwel (talk) 19:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Was there a miners' strike in 1978/9? Clio the Muse 22:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Winter of Discontent? There were certainly two miners' strikes in the 70s, but I may have got the date of the second one wrong... -- Arwel (talk) 06:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, Arwel, I think you are right, though I have a feeling that both fell during the premership of Edward Heath. I don't think the miners came out on strike during the Winter of Discontent.  Clio the Muse 22:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * If I recall correctly, in addition to the rationing, there were also blackouts during the Battle of Britain, either to prevent the Luftwaffe from the advantage of being able to spot targets at night, or because the bombs knocked out service (by hitting a plant or a power line). --M @ r ē ino 00:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * These blackouts did not involve cutting power, Mareino. All street lighting, including traffic lights, was certainly put out; but people still had lighting at home, hidden behind blackout screens.  Air-Raid Wardens went around specifically to check that no light showed through.  Clio the Muse 00:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In the U.S. utilities frequently use voltage reduction during periods of high demand to prevent system overloads and blackouts. One method is to send out a signal from the control center to selected substations to reduce the voltage by 2.5 % or 5 % on selected lines. Suburban residential areas are the favorite targets, and central busness districts are usually spared. When the voltage is lowered, load which is resistive naturally uses less power, . Motors, such as air conditioners, draw increased current in attempting to provide the required motive force, which may result in them stalling and popping their circuit breaker, which also reduces the load. Theoretically, if the voltage entering the home started at 120 volts, it could be reduced to 114 volts, a typical minimum voltage mandated by state law, and still be considered legal. But in practice, many customers near the end of the line might have voltage near the 114 minimum to start with. This "legal" and intentional brownout may go on from mid-day until 10 pm or so when the demand decreases. Edison 14:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the thoughts, though it seems like most people aren't sure, but suspect scheduled blackouts (which makes sense to me). As an aside, I remember reading something a few years ago (ca. 2002?) about a South American country (Bolivia? Columbia?) where the authorities decided to save power by cutting the voltage/amps/frequency? or something along those lines, and the result was that everything basically looked fine except that all electric (non-battery) clocks ran slow (the quartz crystals were off). Anybody remember this? It had a very Borges-like feel to it but I'm pretty sure I remember reading about it in a reputable source (CNN or something along those lines), but my Google searches are coming up fruitless. --24.147.86.187 15:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You're off by one country there. See  this news article from 2003.  As Edison noted, lowering the voltage reduces the amount of electricity delivered to resistive loads; lowering the frequency similarly reduces the amount delivered to inductive loads, i.e. electric motors.  In the normal way of things power companies have to track both kinds of load to maintain both voltage and frequency.


 * According to this recollection, a similar thing occurred in California in the 1940s when a drought reduced the supply of hydroelectricity.


 * --Anonymous, 02:26 UTC, October 13, 2007.

Discovery Process - Civil suits in Canada

 * Hi, could someone enlighten me on how exactly the discovery process works in Canada? The plaintiffs and the defendants just exchange any affidavits or other evidence before the pre-trial conference right?
 * The article Discovery_(law) is based solely on US law. :(
 * Yes I know the legal information provided on Wikipedia is, at best, of a general nature and cannot substitute for the advice of a licensed professional (Legal_disclaimer)
 * --1ws1 05:35, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * To make things simpler, lets just use the Federal Court of Canada, because of the severely decentralized nature of the Canadian government. --1ws1 05:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I know the legal information provided on Wikipedia is, at best, of a general nature and cannot substitute for the advice of a licensed professional (Legal_disclaimer)
 * --1ws1 05:35, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * To make things simpler, lets just use the Federal Court of Canada, because of the severely decentralized nature of the Canadian government. --1ws1 05:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * To make things simpler, lets just use the Federal Court of Canada, because of the severely decentralized nature of the Canadian government. --1ws1 05:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Wool suit as art
Years ago, somewhere in the mid 90s, I went to the Art Institute in Chicago. While there I saw a wool suit on a hanger which was displayed as a piece of art. It was as if someone took it out of their closet and hung it on the wall. I remember seeing an article about this work, maybe it was mentioned in the article about the artist, here at Wikipedia. Does anyone know of this piece and know what the name of it might be? I tried various Google searches but didn't find anything. Dismas |(talk) 12:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Maslow's Human Needs
I try to find out why there are two versions of Maslow's Human Needs pyramid, one with 5 levels and the other with 6 levels. Did he change it or was it other people's intepretation? When was that 6th level added? The following website of yours has included only 5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

thank you very much for your help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.68.88.132 (talk) 13:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * If you look a little further down the article, under Self-transcendence, it says "Maslow later divided the top of the triangle  to add self-transcendence which is also sometimes referred to as spiritual needs." Gandalf61 15:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

war in the church
did the fourteenth century schism in the catholic church bring about military conflict? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.107.238 (talk) 13:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you mean the so-called Western Schism? If so, there's no mention of military conflict in the article. Algebraist 14:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the article mentions the "Guerras fernandinas" or Fernandine Wars, on which we lack an article. However there is an article on Guerras fernandinas in the Portuguese Wikipedia.  The article also mentions the 1383-1385 crisis in Portugal as a consequence of the schism.  Finally, since England supported the Roman pope and France backed the pope in Avignon, the schism played a role in the Hundred Years' War.  Marco polo 20:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It may have played a role in the later stages of the Hundred Years war, but at the start if the war there was only one Pope, based in Avignon, and always on the side of the French. I don't know what later role it had, but I don't think it brought about the military conflict, although no doubt both sides having God's right hand man on their side spurred them on later! Cyta 07:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Now, here is an interesting story for you, a story of an English bishop who led a 'crusade', no less, against the schismatic French. His name was Henry Dispenser, Bishop of Norwich and nuncio of Pope Urban VI, who took an army into the Low Countries under the sign of the cross in May, 1383. Some years prior to this Urban had sent a bull to the Archbishop of Canterbury, offering crusading indulgences to all those who took arms against Clement VII, his rival in Avignon, who was supported by France and Scotland. Henry Dispenser, described as 'warlike' by his contemporaries, was quick to make his own plans for a crusading venture, which Urban readily approved.

The opportinity came when the people of Ghent rebelled against Louis of Male, Count of Flanders, a supporter of Clement. This also attracted the interest of the English crown, which had important commercial interests in Flanders, and was keen to support the burghers of Ghent. The matter was made all the more urgent after the Flemings were defeated by a French army at the Battle of Roosebeke in November, 1382. Because of this, and the danger the victory presented to English economic interests, Richard II granted Dispenser permission to raise an army. A crusade had the added advantage to Richard in that the expenses could all be met by the sale of Papal indulgences, rather than parliamentary grant.

Dispenser and his army landed at Calais on 16 May. Soon after they attacked and slaughtered the French garrison at Gravelines, before moving on to Dunkirk, where they fought and defeated Louis of Male. It was after this high point that things started to go wrong. An attempt to take Ypres was a failure, after which the gains of the spring were lost, and towns previously captured by the crusaders were retaken by the enemy. Gravelines was only given up after Dispenser, in his anger, ordered it to be sacked. By October most of the army was back in England. Dispenser was impeached before parliament for his failure. His temporalities were confiscated and he was ordered to behave in a manner 'befitting his episcopal dignity.' The massacre at Gravelines also did much to discredit the Urbanist cause, just as the unscrupulous sale of indulgences had roused the criticism of John Wycliff and the new Lollard movement. Wycliff denounced both Popes as 'power made'. God's forgiveness, he argued still further, could not be purchased, and that the grant of remission of sins for killing fellow Christians was 'an affront to Christ.' Clio the Muse 00:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The fact that the two popes always supported different claimants to the throne of Naples led to repeated military conflict in that kingdom.qp10qp 20:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

war in the french countryside
what effect did the hundred years war have on the rural communities of france? 81.152.107.238 13:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The Hundred Years' War affected the peasants mainly by adding an element of instability to a way of life that was usually quite boring. Things hit their low point during the Jacquerie revolt.  --M @ r ē ino 19:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The effects were not nearly as bad as was at one time assumed. An English chevauchee could certainly be destructive and terrible in its consequences for the peasantry, but the most frequent complaint at the time was not over murderous soldiers but the break down in customary relationships, and the excessive financial burdens caused by the levying of taxes and tributes, no matter if the leviers were English or French, with little in the way of practical return. Peasants, no longer able to rely on customary feudal protection, took to defending themselves, usually in the fortification of their local churches. At night these 'mini castles' gave added security to the community, who all slept within, while during the day the church tower was used as a look-out point. These little fortresses spread across France and, despite official disapproval, were to remain a feature of the countryside well into the eighteenth century. Clio the Muse 01:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Presumably there was localised foraging/despoiling of the countryside by the armies, which would have been disruptive or even ruinous? --Dweller 12:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Unknown piano piece
Could someone please help me find the title and artist to this piece? Thanks! HokieRNB 15:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This is spooky. If you’d asked this question a few days ago, I couldn’t have helped you.  But I recently came across the sheet music for Chopin’s Largo in E flat major, and that’s what this is.   It’s a minor work, hardly ever played and rarely recorded, but quite pleasant.  I have no idea who the pianist is.  (Btw, it’s not the same piece as this, which is incorrectly labelled “Largo”.  That is its tempo indication, but it's actually the Prelude No. 20 in C minor, Op.28, sometimes nicknamed the “Chord Prelude”.)  --  JackofOz 03:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Looking for Annual Distribution of Vacation Taken in America
Hi!

I really appreciate any help finding resources to determine the distribution of average hours of vacation paid time off taken annually. Minimally I need it by month, but further resolution wouldn't hurt. An average for US would work, but I am looking for vacation taken (not awarded or available) by non-union health care workers in Texas. I have looked at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, but haven't found the right data set yet. Again, and pointers are greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Aqualinx 15:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

War Novel
Can someone please help me? I've been trying to remember the name of a novel that I read years ago. It's set, I think, during the First World War and begins with a scene in a sanatorium with the patients looking out over the plain of battle. Sorry to be so vague. Hope and Glory 17:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Surely this has to be Under Fire by Henri Barbusse? Now in the sinister light of the storm beneath black dishevelled clouds, dragged and spread across the earth like wicked angels, they seem to see a great livid white plain extended before them. In their vision, figures arise out of the plain, which is composed of mud and water, and clutch at the surface of the ground, blinded and crushed with mire, like survivors from some monstrous shipwreck.  (Penguin edition, 2003, p. 6)  Clio the Muse 22:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, yes, that's it. Clio you seem to be able to make bricks without straw! Thank you very much indeed. Hope and Glory 12:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

manifesto
I am looking for a manifesto published in London in 1917 that was signed by eight clergymen representing the leading Protestant dominations including Baptist, Congregational, Presbyterian, Episcopalian and Methodist. The major topic of the manifesto was the end of the Gentile times.

thanks! mis_ann —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.51.179.254 (talk) 18:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Ann, there is a reference here to something called the London Manifesto.  I do have to say, though, that I rather thought the whole idea of 'the end of the gentile times' coinciding with the First World War was one espoused by Jehovah's Witnesses and only Jehovah's Witnesses.  I personally have never heard of this 'London Manifesto'.  The only reference to it is the Wikipedia Page, which was created on 10 October and coincides almost exactly with your request for information, which, I have to say, seems to rank very high indeed on the scale of coincidence!  A reference to this document was also added to the Wikipedia End of Time page on 11 October.  I've checked the names of some of the clergymen mentioned in the 'manifesto', and while they certainly existed I have no idea if they really subscribed to this document or not.  The only reference given in the Wikipedia page is to something called 'Current Opinion', presumably a journal of some sort, though not one I am familiar with.    My gut reaction is that there is something not quite right here, though I would be happy to admit that I am wrong if some more definite proof is forthcoming.  Clio the Muse 23:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This "manifesto" appears to have been originally reported in an unnamed newspaper at the time. I expect, however, that the article was sourced from (the wonderfully titled) Millions Now Living Will Never Die! (1920) by Joseph Franklin Rutherford (p39-40) who used it to promote his beliefs. It seems, therefore, to be a genuine event, though I can find no record of it known as the "London Manifesto". Nor am I convinced that an erroneous statement by a few ministers in 1917 that "the revelation of the Lord may be expected at any moment" is sufficiently notable for an article on its own. I'll prod it. Rockpock  e  t  00:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Seems to have been published in the Marshall, Morgan & Scott newspaper Christian (World?) , 8 November 1917, p. 14. A group called 'The Advent Testimony Movement' and somehow tied to Christabel Pankhurst?&mdash;eric 05:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

<!--Hello Ann  You can find more info, what some of the content of the manifesto

go to http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/  you will find a list of publications. Go to booklets, then click on -God's Kingdom Rules- scroll thru till you see the subheading "Gentile Times" you will see references from that London Manifesto. It does not name the newspaper or the clergy involved. I too am looking for the more info I would like to know the clergy involved. and which newspaper I tried the other one mentioned here above but the links are dead. So if you find more info I would appreciate an update.° Linda

Quote of Manifesto and names of clergy involved from The Watchtower, 1951, p. 411:

“The following manifesto was recently issued by a number of England’s most noted ministers:

“‘First—That the present crisis points toward the close of the times of the Gentiles.

“‘Second—That the revelation of the Lord may be expected at any moment, when he will be manifested as evidently as to his disciples on the evening of his resurrection.

“‘Third—That the completed church will be translated, to be “forever with the Lord.”

“‘Fourth—That Israel will be restored to its own land in unbelief, and be afterward converted by the appearance of Christ on its behalf.

“‘Fifth—That all human schemes of reconstruction must be subsidiary to the second coming of our Lord, because all nations will be subject to his rule.

“‘Sixth—That under the reign of Christ there will be a further great effusion of the Holy Spirit on all flesh.

“‘Seventh—That the truths embodied in this statement are of the utmost practical value in determining Christian character and action with reference to the pressing problems of the hour.’

“This remarkable statement was signed by A. C. Dixon and F. B. Meyer, Baptists; George Campbell Morgan and Alfred Byrd, Congregationalists; William Fuller Gouch, Presbyterian; H. Webb Peploe, J. Stuart Holden, Episcopalians; Dinsdale T. Young, Methodist.

Historical Education Method
IS there any method of education where all subjects and disciplines are taught through historical geometry? For example Euclidean geometry would be taught during studies on Ancient Greece or Darwinian Evolution during study of the 19th century and language and literature during their time span. --Gary123 19:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Your question is slightly unclear; I'm going to assume you mean that all subjects are taught from the primary sources that show their development, not that all subjects are somehow derived from the history of geometry in particular. (Though I happen to have taken out of the library, just today, Dan Pedoe's Geometry and the Liberal Arts, St. Martin's Press, 1976, which at least makes connections between Euclid & his successors and art and architecture.  In the very unlikely case that you would like to relate animal development to geometry, I'd recommend reading D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson's On Growth and Form.)  All too many scientists are illiterate in the history of their own subjects.  The "great books" curriculum of St. John's College requires students to read Euclid and Newton's Principia (with its exposition in terms of Euclidean geometry), and Darwin too, alongside literary classics, and to reproduce in the laboratory epochal experiments of Faraday, etc., whose results they discuss informed by reading original scientific papers.  And all students study a bit of Ancient Greek and French.  (While I don't believe that the St. John's method is particularly interested in relating contemporary developments in literature and science to each other&mdash;the natural prejudice of studying putatively timeless "great books" is to be anti-historicist&mdash;the students who follow this course might be in a position to make the connections&mdash;at least they've read the primary sources, which is incredibly unusual in our world.  On the other hand, the academic discipline of the history of science, home to those who devote themselves to such sources, is all about interpreting science in terms of its historical context.  But this is matter for advanced undergraduate seminars and Ph.D. students, not a method of [general] education.)  Is the St. John's model close to the method you have in mind?  Wareh 20:35, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The history of ideas is generally the last kind of history that comes to be understood.--Wetman 02:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * For the Owl of Minerva always flies at dusk! Clio the Muse 02:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Almost all disciplines appeal to their history in introducing concepts and methods of approach. These in-house histories though are not generally the sort of thing that a rigorous historian would regard as good history — they are tilted towards presentist concerns almost by definition (that is, they care more about how the past led to a specific modern place, rather than being interested in the past itself, or the directions that didn't turn out to have strong modern significance though they were important at the time).
 * In any case, studying historical examples often will not enlighten one much about modern work. If you tried to become an evolutionary biologist today by only reading Darwin, you would quickly find that 1. not all of Darwin's ideas are at all accepted anymore, 2. you wouldn't have any training in the modern tools, methods, or even forms of exposition that are used in the field, and 3. you'd find that the things that Darwin considered to be a "good question" for evolutionary biology are often not considered such good questions today. None of this is meant to diss Darwin — one might even call such changes... progress! (I say this as someone who finds the history of Darwinism more interesting than modern Darwinism, but recognizes that such an approach is not going to get me an article published in Science anytime soon!)
 * There are sometimes courses in colleges that teach science via the history of science, but I have seen these only in very modern "histories" (e.g. physics in the 20th century), and the "science" is always mostly from a relatively lay point of view (avoiding differential equations and the like), making the course more a way for non-scientists to learn some basic science than a real prep for scientific work. --24.147.86.187 18:57, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Rosas and Peron
Can Juan Manuel de Rosas be compared directly to Juan Peron? How do they both stand in relation to the history of Argentina? TheLostPrince 19:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * They were both caudillo, 'strong men' very much in the Latin American mould, and both had a populist agenda. Both attempted to draw on sources of native support, defining themselves in opposition to the traditional conservative elites, or the 'oligarchy', as Peron liked to refer to these people.  Both tended to be viewed by those with an outward and European identity as representing something 'savage' and 'backward' in Argentinian culture.  Both were demagogues and dictators, and both created their own political mythology.  So, yes; I suppose a direct comparison can be made.  Clio the Muse 01:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it would be a stretch to call Perón a caudillo, but his long tenure and cult of personality made the comparison with Rosas inevitable. In 1955, when he was ousted by the Revolución Libertadora, his opponents (who clustered around Aramburu) described the ouster a "new Caseros", and analyzed Perón's previous conduct through that revisionist lens. Whether or not it was a valid comparison, Perón's own supporters chose not to deny it, but instead to insist that Rosas himself had been a positive figure, a proto-Perón, and that Caseros had been a disaster for Argentina. So on the one hand, you have Antiperonists demonizing Perón by comparing him to Rosas, and on the other hand you have Peronists lauding Rosas by comparing him to Perón. Bhumiya (said/done) 19:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)