Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 September 2

= September 2 =

Trying to identify a painting
Hello! The other day I was thinking about a painting that I had seen in a book. I've been trying to find it again since without luck, and turned here hoping someone might recognise it from my description. I believe that it was from the late-Nineteenth or early-Twentieth century; it showed a couple sitting on a couch, with the man slumped over the woman's lap, holding a hypodermic syringe. For some reason I was thinking that it had hung in the Musée d'Orsay, but it wasn't in my book of paintings from that museum, so maybe not. Wading through 60+ pages of Google Image results for various keyword combinations turned up nothing. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Thanks in advance. Heather 00:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not this is it? Carcharoth 01:27, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No, unfortunately; this one was more realistic, and was from a perspective directly facing the couch and the couple seated on it. I think that the title may have been "Cocaine" or "Morphine" or something like that, and I think that it may have been French or Belgian.  I am sorry that I can't provide more detail; I don't know a lot about art.  Thanks greatly for the help, though!  Heather 15:23, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Germany's arrival in haiti.
when did they came to haiti, what year, why did they come?--arab 04:36, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know what year the first German immigrants came to Haiti, but by the second half of the 19th century German businesspeople and their families seem to have had some influence in Haiti's economy. If you're referring to when the German Navy came to Haiti, this link (and several others mirroring the text) mentions one example on June 11th, 1873. At the time, several imperialist nations took a greedy interest in Haiti, and the German empire used two German expatriates' bankruptcy as a pretext to show off their military power in the Caribbean, demanding $ 15,000 from the Haitian government under Nissage Saget. Two German warships enforced the demand - Haiti's fleet was captured, and only returned after Haiti gave in and after some of the ships had been vandalized (see link for unappetizing details). ---Sluzzelin talk  06:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Russia and the German French War of 1871
How did Russia react? S T Blues —Preceding unsigned comment added by S T Blues (talk • contribs) 05:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not all that familiar with the unification of Imperial Germany, but you might try this e-text and search for Russia (Case sensitive to avoid highlighting "Prussia" as well.) A few minutes of this took me only about twenty pages into the document and revealed fears in Europe about aggression from Russia and Great Britain establishing another Hanover-like stronghold on the continent, as well as fears that Russia would assist the German states in the event of a war on the part of Napoleon III.


 * The TXT file.


 * Hope this helps. --Demonesque 06:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, it might be worth noting that Napoleon III lead France into the Crimean War against Russia, which would have almost certainly played a role in Russia's relations with France. (As well as the likely enemy of France, given that France was allied to Great Britain and the Germans accepted the Crown of Spain, putting them at odds with France. --Demonesque 06:49, 2 September ::2007 (UTC)


 * While we know Russia and the new German Empire became pals - Dreikaiserbund and all that - it may not have been obvious to people at the time that it would work out that way. An anonymous writer produced the short story "Der Ruhm" in 1871. That features a Russo-German War that the Prussians lose. It's reprinted in I.F. Clarke's Great War with Germany. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

It tends to be almost completely overlooked just how vital the role of Russia was in the whole strategy pursued by Otto von Bismarck between 1864 and 1870, particulary in relation to France. We know with hindsight that the Franco-Prussian War was over relatively quickly; but there was no guarantee of this at the time. If German forces were, for any reason, bogged down in the west, then Prussia's eastern and southern flanks would have been highly vulnerable. With his usual skill, Bismarck moved carefully to sidestep the nightmare.

Since 1863 Bismarck had made efforts to cultivate Russia, co-operating, amongst other things, in dealing with Polish insurgents. His one great concern after the defeat of Austria in the War of 1866 was that a resentful Franz Joseph might enter into an alliance with Napoleon III, an alliance that might conceivably have included the south German states, resentful of the rise of Prussia. In 1868 he held discussions with the Russians, intended to prevent such a union. The Russian government even went so far as to promise to send an army of 100,000 men against the Austrians if the country joined France in a war against Prussia. Whilst at Ems in the crucial summer of 1870 Bismarck had meetings with Tsar Alexander, also present in the spa town. Alexander, though not naturally pro-German, was persuaded, as he told his mistress, that Napoleon was 'an adventurer.'

Bismarck also had talks at Ems with Alexander Mikhailovich Gorchakov, the Russian Foreign Minister, and was assured on 14 July, days before the French declaratiion of war, that the agreement of 1868 still held: in the event of Austrian mobilisation the Russians confirmed that they would send 300,000 troops into Galicia. More than this, they also applied pressure to Denmark to remain neutral. Bismarck now had all he wanted: a counter to Austria and the assurance of a one-front war. This was one of the great diplomatic coups of the nineteenth century, whose importance has still not been fully recognised. Germany, it might even be said, came into being by the grace of Russia! Clio the Muse 00:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * what Clio is refering to is the de:Alvenslebensche Konvention or Convention of Alvensleben. Named after de:Gustav von Alvensleben. The en:wp is missing this article.--Tresckow 21:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Site with radio frequencies
I came upon a site recently, didn't appear to save it. Anyway, one was able to randomly choose any station, in a web 2.0 manner, that was an actual station on physical radio somewhere in the world. Any help in finding it would be appreciated. Baseballfan 07:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Did it tune broadcast only, or also shortwave? Could it have been just places with webcasts? Edison 19:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Third Cousin
My cousin's wife is having a baby, therefore the child is my second cousin, when my second cousin grows up and has a child of his own, does that make my second cousin's child my third cousin? And when I have kids, what is the relation between my second cousin and my children called? Also between my children and my third cousin? --124.254.77.148 11:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Your first cousin's child is your first cousin once removed, not your second cousin. We have an article at cousin with a rather nice chart which helps. DuncanHill 11:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting, but why are they "removed"? --124.254.77.148 12:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * To answer the original question directly, your first cousin's grandchild is your first cousin twice removed -- and you are also his/her first cousin twice removed. Why "remove"?  The word has a sense that is almost like "move"; this is pretty much obsolete in North America, but in Britain people still speak of "removing" when they go to live in a different place.  And a cousin who is one more "remove" away from you is one degree of kinship farther away.  --Anonymous, 12:16 UTC, September 2, 2007.
 * Gadzooks, Anon! To say "I'm removing to Exeter" would sound amazingly old-fashioned to me. Perhaps someone very old might use it? However, the term removal van is still in common use. Xn4 21:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Rather, one generation away; one degree of kinship could mean a lot of things. &mdash;Tamfang 21:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * remove is from the same root as remote. I occasionally hear/see the phrase "at one remove" to describe a viewpoint less intimate, more neutral, than some alternative.  &mdash;Tamfang 21:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

1637 Siege of Breda
I need some more detail on the Dutch siege of Breda in 1637. Some references would also be a help. CountCasimir 11:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know how much detail you need, but Siege of Breda (1624) is a (meagre) start. Some more detail can be found through a Google serach. I expect many of the primary and secondary sources to be in Dutch or Spanish. --Lambiam 17:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You will find all of the detail you are looking for, CountCasimir, in Breda 'Bravely Besieged' and article by F. S. Memegalos in the Ocrober 2002 issue of Military History (pp.63-9). For a more general political and strategic context try The Dutch Revolt by Geoffery Parker, The History of the Dutch-speaking Peoples, 1555-1648 by Pieter Geyl and The Dutch Republic: Its Rise, Greatness and Fall by Jonathan Israel. Clio the Muse 01:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

history: bristol members of parliament
Who was the last bristol MP who was born and brought up in the city or who was at least closely associated with it for some time before becoming an MP?

i.e. NOT Tony Benn (who was not a Bristolian before 1950) or Ernie Bevin (who was born locally and was associated with the city before becoming an MP but was not an MP for Bristol)

86.25.15.206 13:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * One who was "born and brought up in the city" is William Wills, of the Bristol tobacco family, member for Bristol East in the 1890s, but I guess you should be able to find someone more recent. One who springs to mind as "closely associated with it for some time before becoming an MP" is Stephen Williams, the current Liberal Democrat member for Bristol West. After the University of Bristol (1982-1985), he worked in Bristol, served on Avon County Council and Bristol City Councils, and fought the 1997 and 2001 general elections there before being elected to parliament in 2005. Other current members who fit that description are Doug Naysmith, Labour member for Bristol North West, who was also a local politician in Bristol for many years and Dawn Primarolo, another University of Bristol student (early 1970s) who stayed on in Bristol and went on to become the member for Bristol South at the 1987 election. Xn4 18:50, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Cossack Dance
Maybe a silly question, but does anone know the name for the (apparently stereotypical) type of Russian dance in which the dancer squats on their legs, arms folded, and kicks their legs out forwards? I can't find a reference to it on the Wikipedia dance pages. Rusty2005 15:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Hopak (a Ukrainian dance, but for some reason many people strongly associate it with Russia). Skarioffszky 16:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Rusty2005 17:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There's also a Ukrainian martial art called Combat Hopak. --Ghirla-трёп- 07:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How does it work? If the opponent swings a sword to slice off your head, you just squat and kick him in a tender place? Edison 19:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol, I doubt that would work very well. :-P Too bad the article doesn't specify. :-( It should be merged into Hopak, IMHO. · AndonicO Talk 23:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Baptistry of the Duomo in Spoleto, Italy
The following is a footnote in an unpublished work:

"The baptistery/baptistry of the early Christian Church was located near the west end of the church-building. The early bapistries provided ample water for the immersion of adults. Near the end of the 6th century, it began to be incorporated into the church proper, but the Italians often retained the original location. After the 9th century, infant baptism, using little water, became the most prevalent form of the ritual."

When I visited the Duomo at Spoleto, the baptistery was decorated with Roman pagan designs. I was informed that the room was not considered part of the church proper. It had a direct entrance from the front of the church. The advantage/purpose of not being part of the church was that it allowed non-christians to witness the baptism. Was this folklore or fact? 69.201.141.45 16:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus


 * As far as I know being a non-Christian is not and was not considered an impediment to attending religious ceremonies by the Roman-Catholic Church. So the rationale given does not seem right. Traditionally baptisms were held where water was available, like from a spring, and originally just in the open air, while the main religious ceremonies like the Eucharist were held in houses, originally just private dwellings, later dedicated houses of worship. An obvious advantage of keeping the (often quite large) baptistery and the church building separate is that the church could be built on the best available piece of land, and that its architectural plan did not need to accommodate a large quite different structure. Most likely, the church builders saw no reason to unite the two kinds of structures, each serving its purpose by itself quite satisfactorily. --Lambiam 17:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * In the early days, there were Catechumens... AnonMoos 04:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * For much of the late Antique and early-early medieval period only the baptised were allowed in the nave (naos), and catechumens were supposed to stay in the narthex or porch, which was often a large feature. Hence also separate baptistries.  Johnbod 12:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Art destroyed by War / Il Campo Santo di Pisa
The following is a paragraph from an unpublished 19th century work:

The famous Campo Santo did not equal my expectations. It has more the air of a museum of antiquities than a place of sculpture. The cemetery at Bologna, for dignity and beauty, I think decidedly superior. Nevertheless, this spot is not without great interest. It is a simple cloister in the form of a long parallelogram; the open court within containing earth brought from Jerusalem. The monuments which crowd the corridors are a miscellaneous assemblage of Etruscan, Grecian, Roman, and a few modern sculptures. In many an ancient sarcophagus, the original dust has been displaced to give room for that of some modern hero, whose “fitful fever” occupied an age later in the world’s history by a score or so of centuries. The best modern works are a bas-relief by Thorwaldsen and a statue of Grief, called The Inconsolable by Bartolini. The latter excels for its execution rather than its good taste, while the former for both. The walls of the building are frescoed with scripture subjects, now much defaced.

I searched the article on the Camposanto of Pisa in Wikipedia and there is no detailed account of the survivors of the 1944 bombing. I visited the Camposanto, but have no recollection of a bas-relief by Bertel Thorwaldsen nor of the work by Lorenzo Bartolini, though I probably was suffering from the "Stendhal syndrome" at the time. Did these works survive? It is interesting to notice how much damage Italy suffered from Allied bombing and retreating Nazis. Yet it is hardly mentioned. If in northern Italy or Naples using a 19th century tourist guide-book, you will be surprised to find that many of the murals or churches in the book no longer exist. Is it for the sake of not offending the Brits, Americans, and members of the Axis (all tourists now)that it is "forgotten"? Is it part of the healing process to forget the material losses since the human casualty was so much greater? Is there guilt of fascism involved? 69.201.141.45 19:41, 2 September 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

Mind-Shattering Things
Alright, here is my second question of the week: can you direct me to literature, music, films, or works of art that can produce a vast explosion of consciousness and a sense of overabounding wonder? Things that are able to induce a state of sublimity without the use of drugs.

The examples that I've gathered from my own experience include:

archetypal psychology, visionary and mystical writing, Borges, Moby-Dick, Shakespeare, Shelley, the Bible, the Ancient Mariner, Gustave Dore's illustrations, Buddhist art, Hindu myth, Blake, Paradise Lost, world history, travel and nature writing, psychedelic music, really odd thoughts, magic, weird tales, and fantasy

Thank you for any additions you might have! 161.13.11.211 20:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)MelancholyDanish


 * I don't mean to be dismissive, but it sounds like you're trying to rediscover 1968. Ok.  Folks then found Hieronymous Bosch to fit, and, of course, On the Road by Jack Kerouac.  This is excepting pscyhedelic music, which I, for one, used to make.  One theorist of the genre explained to me that the best drug music was made by people who didn't take drugs.  Druggies, he said, made folk music and Grateful Dead music, while straight folks trying to get a druggie experience made trippy music.  I don't know if that's true, but most of the mind-altering stuff has the air of a clean chemistry about it.  Oh, and German Expressionism, both in film and in painting, can be pretty wild.  Dada can do it, too, if you're in the mood.  Andalucian Dog will certainly send you to another place -- as will Eraserhead and the music of The Residents -- but it might not be a very happy place.  Geogre 20:29, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * A Fire Upon the Deep made my head spin, dunno about yours. &mdash;Tamfang 21:27, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * For books, see Books that will induce a mindfuck. —Keenan Pepper 22:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * My goodness; what a list, Keenan Pepper! Some of the 'mindfucks' would struggle to be defined-how shall I put it-as 'heavy breathing'; and, no, I am not prepared to say which!  I think, Melancholy Danish, that you may have read Malcolm Lowry's Under the Volcano, the one 'mindfuck' that does not even appear on the linked list?  If not, it's a great whirlwind of images, words and ideas; sublime in every degree.  In my estimation it is the best English novel of the last century, and by that I mean of the novels written by a person from England.  Clio the Muse 23:23, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Has no-one mentioned William Burroughs yet? One ounce of Burroughs has more power than a hundredweight of Kerouac. DuncanHill 23:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's funny, because Burroughs and Kerouac are often considered of the same type, but they're really totally different types of writers, people, mindfucks, etc.. I think it is unfortunate that they are so often put side by side, since they've really got very little in common other than some shared acquaintances and time period... --24.147.86.187 23:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If you're interested in something that'll raise your heartbeat, I found White Jazz to be pretty wonderfully frantic, in a "popped some bennies and shot a man" sort of way. As for film, Adaptation. really blew my mind as meta-meta-art, and one that played with the boundaries between fiction and non-fiction in clever ways (in the same way Ellroy's works do), though I know some people feel otherwise. --24.147.86.187 23:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The things that blow my mind are books about science and history that make the mind boggle when being forced to contemplate the mysteries and wonders of the universe, the possibilities of eternity, and the vastness of space. Books include Profiles of the Future by Arthur C. Clarke, Atom by Lawrence Krauss, Tau Zero by Poul Anderson, and moments during TV documentary series such as Cosmos by Carl Sagan, The Ascent of Man by Jacob Bronowski, and many of the archaeology and history documentaries by Michael Wood. Carcharoth 02:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The first time anything had that effect on me, it was André Chénier, when I was a teenager. Xn4 02:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Listen to Arnold Schoenberg's Gurre-Lieder, preferably live in a concert hall. --  JackofOz 05:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The first two things that came to mind, and which are fairly new and not in the "classic" league of, say, Moby Dick, are the paintings of Alex Grey and the Ware Tetralogy books by Rudy Rucker. As usual with these things, your mileage may vary. Pfly 05:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Conlon Nancarrow's Study for player piano #36 (listen here, or here with a Dutch introduction). Zipangu by Claude Vivier. Jonchaies by Iannis Xenakis. Skarioffszky 08:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Allegedly, The White Album by The Beatles had a pretty mind-shattering impact, unfortunately. --Dweller 08:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

If you want travel writing, try Bruce Chatwin, for example The Songlines. In film, Andrei Rublev can nail you to your seat for three hours, mouth agape. Stalker isn't bad either. And as for books on film, have you read Flicker by Theodore Roszak?--Rallette 10:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Absolutely not a trippy book, but a book with inordinately interesting shuffling of reality would be At Swim-Two-Birds. It's also one of the few novels I regard as being necessary for calling oneself an educated human.  (I think Tristram Shandy, A Tale of a Tub, and Beware of the Cat are similarly necessary, but they're not all novels.)  Geogre 18:36, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * π is enlightening, though it hurt my head (albeit probably not as much as it did to Max). Some people find Koyaanisqatsi and its sequels wonderous (others find them pretentious nonsense). For a darker awakening, the music of Godspeed You! Black Emperor is remarkable, especially F♯A♯∞. A part of East Hastings, one of the "movements" on the album, appears to be the movie soundtrack of choice these days to evoke foreboding. I heard it used in two trailers in a row recently, presumably reflecting the tension of its first evocative use in 28 Days Later. Rockpock  e  t  19:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I was going to suggest Godspeed You Black Emperor as well, so maybe that says something. Their Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven and Autechre's Tri Repetae were the albums that had that sort of effect on me. Recury 14:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Star Trek would shatter your mind quite nicely. · AndonicO Talk 23:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Image:Koyaanisqats2002.jpg - "A life-altering experience, or a waste of 87 minutes? You decide." (not sure who added this image, but it is not free, therefore should only be linked and not displayed - I'm doing this for the second time after my previous fix was reverted, so I'm now explaining it here). Carcharoth 10:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The Outermost House by Henry Beston. Duino Elegies by Rainer Maria Rilke. The Sacred Depths of Nature by Ursula Goodenough.--Eriastrum 20:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)