Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 August 17

= August 17 =

Historical hair: men's top knot
I'm re-reading Louisa M.Alcott's " Eight Cousins" and've finally stopped to find out a question which has long puzzled me and for which I can't seem to find enlightenment on the web. One of the Campbell boys, nicknamed "the Dandy," wears a hair style referred to as a top knot. Only being familiar with women't top knots, I'm having trouble visualizing this hairstyle. I've been searching for images and references online for several days and can't find anything which would explain this style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bcsgibson (talk • contribs) 03:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * [[Image:JohnCharlesRykert23.jpg|thumb|right|150px|Canadian legislator John Charles Rykert, 1873: is this a top knot?]]Found a page with discussion of the "top knot curl" here, but it wants a password to view the images. Trying search terms such as 1875 (or 1870s) hairstyles, got this page, which shows (see the pic labelled "1872 hairstyle") a man who has created rolls in the top of his hair with hair oil - maybe that's the idea. Some more pics here. Unfortunately, our 1870s in fashion page doesn't get into men's hair, though the pic of John Charles Rykert  from 1873 has a forehead curl that also might be this top knot thing. A book to find: An Illustrated History of Hairstyles: 1830-1930. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 15:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The topknot in 19th century Europe as a hairstyle was most likely a product of Chinoiserie, or Europe's obsession with all things Asia, and most specifically China. The topknot has been a popular hairstyle in China since at least the third century BCE, as illustrated by the Terra Cotta Warriors and other art of the time. It went in and out of fashion in China, but even if it wasn't popular in China at this time, a lot of their art illustrating "classical times", which merchants would have brought back with them to Europe, would have had topknots as hairstyles, and so I imagine that might be the provenance. Jen (talk) 21:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * But Alcott's book is American. Do you mean the character would be wearing his hair like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Officer_Terrakottaarm%C3%A9n.jpg--64.228.91.86 (talk) 16:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps. I'm guessing mostly, but could imagine some variation on that. It is most definitely something done only with long-hair, and it should be some variation on a bun or a bun/ponytail combo. Beyond that I'm only guessing regarding the European fad, and would be surprised if a European fad didn't make it to the US as well. Jen (talk) 21:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No pics, but fyi, the article Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son would put the date at 1700s. The top-knot is here is a book english folk rhymes 1892 by G. F. Northall (p. 565) shows a version of Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son as "...and a long way off" with the words and the wind has blown my top knot off. Fwiw, Julia Rossi (talk) 13:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Term White in US Surveys
In US sociology, how often does the term White include so-called white ethnics, ie all non WASP Europeans ? Are WASPs still largely dominant over the ethnics, to the point where White and WASP are still likely held as synonymous, or has that changed ? 69.157.227.243 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Depends on the context. See Race (U.S. Census) where white means European, Middle Eastern and some self-identifying Hispanics. Rmhermen (talk) 04:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * WASP is always a subset of "White". They're not synonymous. - Nunh-huh 04:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I bet somebody appreciates me saving them from the search effort: WASP = White Anglo-Saxon Protestant/Coffeeshivers (talk) 11:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Huns in Europe
I would like to how know many Hun warriors arrived in Europe in the late Roman Times. Are there any Roman records that tells the size of the hunnic tribe in Europe? Sonic99 (talk) 04:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Little reliance can be placed on figures given for combatants in the primary sources, as any historian will tell.--Wetman (talk) 15:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I am sure there are Roman records which mentioned the size of the Hunnic Tribe because Huns were the biggest threat to the Roman Empire and the historians would have written a lot about them. Do you guys know the estimate number, but you don't want to tell me? Sonic99 (talk) 00:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Porn model rape
How often do porn models in US get raped even if intercourse isn't part of their contract? I mean non-consexual sex. Is it common for some member of the shooting crew to rape the model? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.7.54.224 (talk) 08:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a kind of an amazing question. Uh, no. It's not common. I mean, I have no doubt that rapes occur in the porn industry, just like they unfortunately occur in just about every other industry, but the idea that porn models get raped on a regular basis is, frankly, pretty far-fetched at best. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 11:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Even more the case considering that the porn industry is actually relatively well-organized around the issue of health and safety. My bet is that rape in porn is actually a lot lower than in some other industries, in the same way that occurrences of STDs amongst porn stars are statistically quite low (because of lots of screening), but I don't have any statistics on that. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 12:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you mean rape as in 'hold the girl down and physically assault her' or 'not tell her that you want to film an anal scene and coerce her when you're filming'? They seem distinct with the first being relatively rare and the later being more common (but not too common).--droptone (talk) 12:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I doubt the latter is common at all—my bet is that it is faked in nearly all situations. There is nothing stupider than breaking the law and tape-recording it—it's bad for business. There are an apparently endless stream of women willing to do anything for money, why risk it? Just doesn't wash with me that such would be the case. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You wouldn't tape the coercion. Pressuring employees to do work they didn't originally sign up for (including simply overtime, rather than a different type of task) happens in every other industry, why not the porn industry? Pressuring a porn star to do overtime could constitute rape (although, the person performing the sexual act wouldn't be the one doing the coercing or at all involved in it, which would probably make it an interesting legal situation - I'm not sure quite how the law would handle such a thing). --Tango (talk) 00:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Why not the porn industry? Because pressuring someone into sex acts they don't want to do is not like "doing overtime". Pressuring an employee to do overtime is not against the law. Pressuring someone to do sex acts they don't want to do is a federal crime. (And no, just because someone else did the act itself would not get someone off the hook. They'd both be charged, no problem.) As I said—it'd be bad for business. Hot-headed police would be all over that likes flies on crap.

--98.217.8.46 (talk) 04:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Let's not forget people don't always do the things that make the most sense. Certainly not the things that would make the most sense to outsiders (us). And when lust gets involved...


 * I'm sure that there have been some people in the porn industry who, at the sight of a naked breast, get so uncontrollably horny that they resort to rape, but generally speaking, these are people who aren't terribly affected by work-related nudity any more than morticians are affected by work-related corpses or people in skyscraper construction are affected by work-related heights. It's simply a question of having a certain mindset for your work and another for your private life, which is probably something we're all familiar with. You might as well ask whether gynaecologists commonly rape their patients, since they're looking at vaginas all day long. The underlying assumption is that if you see it, you have to have it at any cost, and that's, frankly, kind of stupid.


 * Anyway, the question was whether it's common for crew members to rape porn models. It isn't. (How would that work, anyway? It's not an orgy, it's a workplace! I'm not saying that no one ever gets raped at work, but what are they supposed to do, club the model over the head and drag them into a broom closet while no one else is looking, and afterwards everyone resumes work as if nothing had happened? The idea that this happens on an even remotely regular basis and no one notices or cares is simply ridiculous.) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Question: Comprehensive Resource Providing Profile/ID of Corporations and Organizations
Is there is a page providing a comprehensive listing of corporations and their identity (1. legal name, 2. addresses, 3. main web link, 4. what they produce and/or service) ? I would use this web resource especially for researching non English language organizations. For example, China companies wanting to do business with me, but there is difficulty confirming their ID, as very often their entire identity appears to be represented in only a non English web link. Grateful if you could advise a reference even if outside of Wikipedia - thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparkysports (talk • contribs) 10:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You might try Hoover's, which has some information on companies outside the U.S. I haven't used it in depth, though -- just a suggestion.  — OtherDave (talk) 13:50, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Finding a sculptor?
I seem to recall seeing works by a modern sculptor whose works were sort of odd hybrids of both the organic and the machine; the sort of things that looked like they would fit into the aesthetic of eXistenZ. Anybody have any idea of people who might fit this (very vague) description? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I haven't seen eXistenZ, but H. R. Giger is the one who immediately springs to mind. I can't resist also mentioning my favorite kinetic sculpture, Machine with 23 Scraps of Paper by Arthur Ganson, though I really doubt he's the one you're thinking of. -- BenRG (talk) 15:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, less "metal" and "slimy" than Giger, more "brown-yellow squishy." Giger's whole kick, as I understand it, is in making living things with machine-like appearances; I'm talking about the opposite here, machines with life-like, organic appearances. And not the sort of gear-crazy stuff like Ganson. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 17:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Sand castle
In 1542, while exploring the Amazon Basin near Ecuador, Spanish conquistador Francisco de Orellana began checking the area around one of the Amazon’s largest rivers, the Rio Negro. On returning to Spain, he reported the jungle area held an ancient civilization — a farming people, many villages and even massive, walled cities. Later explorers and missionaries were unable to confirm Orellana’s reports. They said the cities weren’t there and only hunter-gatherer tribes roamed the jungles. Orellana’s claims were dismissed as myth until recently.

It is now believed that Orellana's very visit brought European diseases, as in North America, which 90% of the native population were unable to survive. Although communities of several hundred people are known to exist in various areas who have a ruling hierarchy more suited for hundreds of thousands of people and evidence has been uncovered of vast territory the size of the UK laid out in grids and covered to depth of two or more feet in a man made soil known as "Dark Earth" or Terra Preta the vast society it apparently supported no longer exists and has never recovered bringing me to the question I have to ask.

In the event of a truly devastating disaster including nuclear war and bombardment by many small or one large asteroid would our society as we know it today ever recover to the point it is today or like the last sand castle created by a sand castle artist never be recreated in such grandeur again? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.13.184 (talk) 16:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * At the risk of sounding facetious, the answer is "yes" or, perhaps, "no". There are science fiction writers and movie producers who have tackled the subject, from Planet of the Apes on up, down and all around.  "It depends" is likely the closest statement to a real answer, notwithstanding hundreds of possible ways, in thousands of possible words, that attempts may be made to expand the detail. ៛ Bielle (talk) 23:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * We don't predict the future here so I'm not going to engage in speculation, but I think your answer comes in the part of the story you didn't tell. The 'later explorers and missionaries' didn't come much later when you consider how long a rebound of that magnitude would take, and they impacted these people as well. Moreover, the later explorers and missionaries led to colonies and foreign occupation and cultural displacement, etc. So I think the answer of your question depends on what pressures and forces we would have to overcome. -LambaJan (talk) 16:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

London 2012 - games of the XXX Olympiad
I was wondering when athletes competing in London 2012 who would give them their medals, would it be HM The Queen, or if she's dead, the monarch? --Hadseys —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.6.191 (talk) 16:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Medals are usually presented by Olympic officials, not heads of state. ៛ Bielle (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think they're awarded by the international governing body for the sport involved.  Corvus cornix  talk  21:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Presenting Olympic medals would be pretty much a full time job for 2 weeks, there's no way the Queen would do all of them even if it was up to the hosts to do it. She would nominate other members of the royal family to present them. --Tango (talk) 17:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Both Bielle and Corvus are correct. I have no experience with the Olympic Games, but I do know a thing or two about Paralympic Games medal ceremonies, and as the two Games are conducted in a very similar manner I think the medal ceremonies will be similar as well. Medals are awarded by a mixed bag of people that can include IOC (or in my experience, IPC) members and VIPs, international sport federation representatives, host country representatives, and sometimes visiting foreign dignitaries as well. There are actually six presenters in each ceremony; three to present medals and three to present flowers. The VIest of VIPs presents the gold medal and so on down the line. - EronTalk 22:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * In your first sentence, you acknowledged the distinction between awarded (by the governing body) and presented (by a VIP). But you then used "awarded" when I think you're actually talking about "presented".  --  JackofOz (talk) 23:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I see that. Olympic medals are awarded by the IOC - that is the governing body that sanctions the event. The medals are presented by a range of VIPs and dignitaries. - EronTalk 23:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

history of 'year' dating
Is there any article(s) which cover the history of what year dating was used locally my most areas in europe? For example from what I understand AD dating didn't start until about the year 300AD, and that it was common to write i324 or j324 (for number of years after Jesus). I also read that in at least some places for some amount of time (hundreds of years) there has been the occurance of i324 -> 1324. Some lists explicitly have this 'millenium' jump error. What regions did this happen to? Also in the late middle ages there were a number of aurthorities which adjusted the year by considerable distances (+/- 50 years or more), I am guessing this was the papacy but when exactally and from what values?--Dacium (talk) 23:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You might want to have a look at Claus Tøndering's Calendar FAQ, though it leaves your questions mostly unanswered. Section 2.14 ("How does one count years?") notes that at the time Dionysius Exiguus did his calendar work, it was traditional to count years since the reign of the Emperor Diocletian. Dionysius was the one who set the year 1 of the Christian Era equal to 754 ab urbe condita. Throughout much of Medieval European history, dates were given in (local) regnal years rather than in years of the Christian Era. 300 AD is certainly too early for the advent (as it were) of AD dating, as Dionysius did his writing about 523 AD. - Nunh-huh 01:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There is also, although a bit philosophical, Leofranc Heoffard Stephens's A Very Brief Introduction to Time, which is quite entertaining, quite short, and quite thick with information. Geogre (talk) 13:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

bloodmoor suffolk england
Does anybody have any information regarding the saxon/roman settlement at Bloodmoor in Suffolk England

Thank You in anticipation

DCAM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.206.30.96 (talk) 23:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

(Fixed syntax mistakes.) 78.151.54.224 (talk) 11:06, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * A google search found this (in pdf format) Fribbler (talk) 12:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)