Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 December 6

= December 6 =

University and College
Do a lot of people go to collge after university?99.226.138.202 (talk) 02:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you need to identify which country you're asking about, 99.226.138.202. In the UK, for instance, the simple answer is No. Many people here go to both a college and a university at once, as Oxford, Cambridge, Durham and London are collegiate universities, but apart from that most institutions called 'colleges' in the UK are actually secondary schools or further education colleges and thus generally come before universities. Xn4  ( talk ) 03:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * In the U.S., it's common to refer to any four year undergraduate institution as a college: "Where are you going to college?" "Michigan" (meaning, the University of).  And many schools with extensive postgrad programs (supposedly a hallmark of a university) call themselves colleges, like Boston College and the College of William and Mary.  You'll hear "Irene's in college" or "Curt's in grad school," but you'll go quite some time before you hear "Leonard's at university" (except with a specific -- "He's at the University of Maine."  There are also two year community colleges (sometimes called junior colleges), though I haven't heard of one of them calling itself a university.  --- OtherDave (talk) 04:51, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In Canada, where "university" and "college" are fairly distinct, it sometimes happens that a university graduate goes to college afterwards. Their university degree is probably abstract and impractical for the real world, so they go to college to get useful training for a career. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * With due respect to the poster above, in the UK many university graduates enrol in an FE college for a short course or part-time course to gain extra skills, for example digital image processing or British sign language. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Bangladeshi districts history
I heard that Pabna and Sirajganj district were together as Pabna. So, what about other districts like Rangpur? I also heard that Gaibandha, Kurigram, Dinajpur and Lalmonirhat were together with Rangpur as Rangpur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.116.254 (talk) 03:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately our articles on these Bangladeshi districts need much improvement. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Winston Churchill
Is Winston Churchill an atheist? Sayaialahbejin (talk) 13:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)Evan
 * Winston Churchill is dead so he isn't anything. Anyway I highly recommend you read the Winston Churchill article if you haven't already (and you should always check out an article before asking a question as you'll often get the answer a lot faster that way). In particular, the section on India makes it sound like he was an atheist although it doesn't say it explicitly. Saya ialah Nil Einne (talk) 14:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Or at any rate, if he's dead and he DOES nevertheless have an opinion one way or the other, it's pretty safe to say, whatever he was in life, he's not an atheist now! (Sorry, couldn't resist.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.139.75 (talk) 19:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * suggests he was either agnostic or ambigious Nil Einne (talk) 14:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, this is an excellent question. The Wikipedia article on Churchill claims that he Angelican (in the Info Box) and another part claims he was an atheist.  There's a small dicussion on this on the discussion page.  I'm not sure if this issue was resolved. 67.184.14.87 (talk) 16:34, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I know you just mistyped "Anglican" there, but I must say that "Angelican" has a delightful sound to it! --Anonymous, 18:13 UTC, December 6, 2006.
 * Thanks for that. Despite my suggestion to the OP, I didn't actually read the whole article;:-P and primarily searched for Christ, agnos & athei but somehow forgot religion and didn't think of anglican so missed that part Nil Einne (talk) 17:11, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. It's perfectly possible there is life after death but there are no gods. Algebraist 19:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Possible, but it seems unlikely. Those of us who fall uncomfortably into the "agnostic or ambiguous" category might hope he would at the very least not be that, anyways. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.139.75 (talk) 20:07, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's any strong evidence as to which would be more or less likely. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 20:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Back to the question, it's funny how we have articles on 4 notable people named Winston Churchill, one of whom is very much alive, yet the general assumption is that it must be the dead UK Prime Minister the questioner is asking about even though the first word of the question is "is". -- JackofOz (talk) 23:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really - while there may be 4 notable Winston Churchills, there is only one notable enough to be referred to without saying "not the wartime prime minister, the other one". --Tango (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Is spying illegal?
(Not a question about spying by the government) I'm asking about spying by one individual on another. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.76.172.209 (talk) 13:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As the header says, we don't give legal advice. And as with nearly every question which asks, it it illegal, the first basic isssue answer is, it depends where you live. Add as is often also the case, it depends what you mean by spying. More specifically for examples, in many countries listening to or recording a private phone call without the permission of at least one party is illegal. Breaking into someone's house to install a camera or whatever will obviously be illegal. (If you are lawfully invited into the house, it may or may not be illegal I suspect depending on the circumstances) Recording or filming on private property where someone has a resonable expectation of privacy, without the owners permission will often also be illegal. Accessing someone's computer or email account or whatever without their permission will also often be illegal. Following someone too much could be considered stalking and in any case, they may also be able to take a restraining order out against you which will stop you from coming within a certain distance of them. In some situations, the police may decline to persue the matter or perhaps there will even be no criminal violation but you may still be able to take civil action against the violator. If you have a question about a specific situation then you should contact a lawyer who can advise you to precise legal situation in whatever jurisdiction concerns you. Nil Einne (talk) 14:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There are many criminal laws in different jurisdictions about acts such as breaking and entering, trespass, accessing someone's computer without permission, recording telephone calls, stalking, etc. However in more cases, it is likely to be a civil matter e.g. nuisance, breach of confidence, civil trespass, trespass to chattels, breach of privacy/invasion of privacy (see e.g. Privacy laws of the United States), laws about trade secrets, etc.  I suggest you read some of those articles unless you have a more specific question. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 16:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Much of it will be a matter of motive and degree. Technically, willful eavesdropping is a kind of spying, but a person probably won't be prosecuted for it. Setting up a hidden camera in someone else's private quarters is entirely different. And actions taken by a private citizen to uncover and prove criminal activity will be treated differently than those same actions would if they were done as part of a criminal enterprise (recording a conversation without the person's consent to take it to the police as opposed to doing so with the intent of using it to blackmail someone, for example). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.139.75 (talk) 20:04, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Though note that said illegally recorded conversation could not be used as part of any trial. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 20:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I know a guy who gets paid by the government (here in Australia) to spy on its own citizens. The government points him to people suspected of benefit fraud and he follows them around with a video camera. He's got an accreditation from the state government that allows him to do it without fear of being charged for stalking. I thought about doing it myself for a while, but I think the accreditation cost 3 or 4 thousand dollars, so out of my reach. Also he said getting beaten up was a hazard of the job, I don't like the idea of that either.121.214.198.99 (talk) 09:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

It probably depends on how you spy, how you spyon someone (or rather, in some cases such as eavesdropping, whether it was intentional), who you are spying on, and why. Vltava  68  09:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Number of trees in the United states
Is it true that the number of trees in the United states is getting bigger each year? And what about Europe? Gridge (talk) 14:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC).


 * You can get pretty graphs for the U.S. here. This is the main pertinent quote: "Since 1900, forest area in the U.S. has remained statistically within 745 million acres +/-5% with the lowest point in 1920 of 735 million acres.  U.S. forest area in 2000 was about 749 million acres." --  k a i n a w &trade; 18:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * But the question was about number of trees, not area of forest. Presumably in 1900 the proportions of old-growth forest, naturally regrown forest, and planted forest were different than in 2000.  I have no idea how that would affect the results, but there ought to be some effect.  For that matter, there are a fair number of trees that aren't in forests at all. --Anonymous, 04:24 UTC, December 7, 2008.


 * The link I provided explained the number of trees as well - in high detail. That isn't as important as forest area though.  As far as number of trees, small diameter trees have been decreasing in quantity.  Large diameter trees have been increasing in quantity.  In other words - there are less trees, but more big trees. --  k a i n a w &trade; 22:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

(Heralrdy) Royal coat of arms of the UK and predecessor kingdoms


Which supporters would these coat of arms have had before being merged into the coa of the UK? Links to images would be very welcome! Thanks! ;) --217.227.109.160 (talk) 18:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * England -- Lions (in Tudor times, a lion and a dragon).
 * Scotland -- Unicorns. AnonMoos (talk) 18:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. See Image:Scotlandarmsold6l.jpg... AnonMoos (talk) 01:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Wales may have lost all autonomy before supporters were standardized. —Tamfang (talk) 00:32, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * According to Boutell's Heraldry, the English royal supporters varied quite a lot. Before Henry VI they are marked "attributed" and I won't list those.
 * * Henry VI: two antelopes argent; sometimes a lion and a panther/antelope/tyger
 * * Edward IV: a lion or and a bull sable; a lion argent and a hart argent; two lions argent.
 * * Edward V: a lion argent and a hart argent, gorged & chained or.
 * * Richard III: a lion or and a boar argent; two boars argent.
 * * Henry VII: a dragon gules and a greyhound argent; two greyhounds argent; a lion or and a dragon gules.
 * * Henry VIII: a lion or and a dragon gules; a dragon gules and a bull sable, a greyhound argent, or a cock argent.
 * * Edward VI: a lion or and a dragon gules.
 * * Mary I: a lion or and a dragon gules; a lion or and a greyhound argent; when impaling the arms with Philip, an eagle and a lion.
 * * Elizabeth I: lion or and a dragon or; a lion or and a greyhound argent.
 * The current supporters were apparently adopted at the Stuart succession. —Tamfang (talk) 00:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Source of quotation
where can I find the original source of the quote, "the more I know, the more I don't know." ? I need it for a paper in my psychology class. Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ba2011 (talk • contribs) 19:37, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe that this particular sentence has evolved during the millennia. Socrates is widely considered to be the author but the original sentence seems to be: "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance". There is a very interesting discussion about it in . Don't forget that translations of ancient languages is quite a difficult task.  Flamarande (talk) 21:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC) PS: Try to use Google before making such questions.

Scholarly edition of Grimm's Fairy Tales
I'm very interested in folklore studies, perhaps even in pursuing it as a career. I would like to obtain a scholarly edition of the work of Jakob and Wilhelm Grimm - not a cute illustrated children's edition, or one meant for children at all, but one with the stories exactly as they were collected (unpleasant details intact, violence and incest and all), and preferably annotations and footnotes meant to enhance the tales for those who would study them for cultural, literary, and psychological significance, not simply read them for entertainment. Unfortunately, I haven't yet studied German, so this would have to be an English edition (though I wouldn't object to a bilingual English/German edition so long as it was unabridged and the scholarly folkloristic elements, in English, were present). I know there may not be a "definitive" edition accepted by all scholars, but can anyone make a solid recommendation? - Aletheia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.139.75 (talk) 19:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe this edition or that one will help. Or browse here. -- 93.131.82.246 (talk) 22:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Swedish map location
I'm watching Wallander in Swedish, and his daughter has just radioed in the location of a body she found. She gave her position (by looking at a map) in degrees latitude and longitude, to just one decimal place. Do the Swedes not have anything like our trusty national grid? DuncanHill (talk) 22:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The Swedes have the Swedish Grid. Marco polo (talk) 22:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you - do you know why she would not have used that? Estimating a latitude and longitide from an everyday scale map is pretty inaccurat in my experience (unless you've got a table to rest on and a ruler, neither of which were available to her). DuncanHill (talk) 22:43, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know. I suppose she just didn't know her location with any more precision than she could get from looking at the map.  Incidentally, the Swedish Grid is based on latitude and longitude.  Marco polo (talk) 23:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks again. I suppose I shouldn't read too much into a TV programme anyway, and I suppose not everyone is as comfortable with grid readings as I am. DuncanHill (talk) 23:53, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, a location to only the nearest tenth of a degree would not be much use, so I think we can assume the program was not being realistic. But this sort of thing is, after all, what latitude and longitude were developed for.  What people will use in practice will depend on what's marked on the maps they have -- and on most of the better quality maps I've used in several different countries  latitude and longitude is what you get.  I mean, there may be a locator grid in addition, but it will be specific to that particular map, not a national grid.  This is true in England too -- I have a map of London that had grid squares that I happen to know coincide with the national grid, but they're just marked A1, A2, etc. like a typical locator grid, and the national grid coordinates aren't shown.  --Anonymous, 04:30 UTC, December 7, 2008.

Swedish maps
This is a follow up to my Wallander related question above. Does Sweden have an equivalent map series to our Ordnance Survey (i.e. readily and widely available, detailed and accurate), and do they have a grid or other location system printed on them? Are these the sort of maps that an off-duty copper would use when out for a run in the woods? Although I have visited Sweden several times, I've not had the opportunity to investigate its mapping before. DuncanHill (talk) 11:39, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is such a series of maps, commonly referred to by their previous name Gröna Kartan, i.e. the green map. They are now renamed Terrängkartan. See e.g. . In my experience, they are used for almost all outdoor activities outside of the mountainous regions where a purple set of maps with a more appropriate scale are used. These are all created by the national agency Lantmäteriet (sv:Lantmäteriet), tasked with maintaining maps, but also property ownership records etc. /Coffeeshivers (talk) 15:57, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's excellent, many thanks :) DuncanHill (talk) 15:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

What is the name of the hooded man from Abu Ghraib
I have two conflicting sources: 1. Wikipedia/Newsweek says Satar Jabar 2. The New York Times says Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh Thanks, --VectorField (talk) 22:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Possibly depends on which photograph is involved. Is he the standing one? or the kneeling one. There are many more coming out so it would help to have more details. Sorry, it's the standing one – my misunderstanding. Hajji Ali denies being that one; The Charles Graner article captions it as Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh, so you might like to follow up the references there and possibly change it or leave a message on the talk pages of the two articles displaying that image with different identities in the captions. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:18, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Foundations of law in a reality show.
Which laws apply if a crime is commited inside a reality show in a remote location? It is treated simply as a crime by a tourist? Have there been any such crimes? Bastard Soap (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The fact that it is part of a reality show wouldn't have any bearing on it. People abroad are obliged to obey the law of the country they are in (and sometimes that of their home country, and even possibly unrelated countries - see universal jurisdiction). --Tango (talk) 00:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Do renters have recourse if their landlord pockets the cash, doesn't pay the mortgage, and the house gets foreclosed?
Better yet, could a renter pull a prospective landlord's credit before and during a lease? The renter is definitely at risk if the home is foreclosed while the lease is in force. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boomerpdx (talk • contribs) 23:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In what jurisdiction? Algebraist 00:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) That will almost certainly depends on what jurisdiction you are in. In the UK a new purchaser of a house in obliged to keep the current tenants on unless they intend to live in the house themselves (at least, that's what I remember), I would expect that applies to forced sales due to foreclosure as well. --Tango (talk) 00:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The OP's use of language suggests he is American ("renter", "foreclose"). DuncanHill (talk) 00:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The details might make a major difference. If it is important, I suggest a legal opinion. It sounds like something that access to the landlord's financial records might be a negotiable part of the contract.75Janice (talk) 00:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC)75Janice


 * Rental codes vary significantly from one state to another in the United States, but in most if not all states, landlords (including landlords who gain possession through foreclosure) do not have the power to evict tenants, even if the law sanctions the tenants' eviction. The landlord can serve a notice to quit, but if the tenant chooses to remain, the landlord has to go to court, a process that can take months and that tenants can contest, in order to get a legally binding eviction order.  Only once such an order has been issued can constables remove the tenants' belongings and force the tenants out.  If landlords attempt forcible eviction without a court order, they are breaking the law in most if not all states.  You may want to consult a lawyer.  Marco polo (talk) 03:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There are often organisations specifically for the rights of tenants, varying by jurisdiction. They might be called something like "Tenants' Union" or "Tenancy advocates" or something like that. Your local phonebook would probably give you a website or phone number. Steewi (talk) 02:52, 8 December 2008 (UTC)