Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 January 12

= January 12 =

Meaning of “Jailed”
This is both a Language question and a Humanities question. We hear about people being sentenced to jail, but their jail term is set to commence not immediately but some months down the track, e.g. Conrad Black, and Marion Jones.

Firstly, why don’t these sentences commence immediately, as they do for most other jail terms? Why do they need any more time to get their affairs in order, or whatever, when they’ve known for a long time this could be the outcome of the trial? What is their status pending their physical incarceration – are they under house arrest? Are they free to go about their daily lives and conduct their business? Do they have to report to the police on a regular basis? Do they have to surrender their passports to prevent them skipping the country?

Secondly, it seems to have changed the meaning of the verb "to jail". Once, it meant both the act of sentencing someone to a jail term and also causing them to be physically imprisoned. Now, it means the former but not necessarily the latter, or not yet anyway. A person skimming a paper and reading the headline "Conrad Black jailed" would be entitled to assume he’s now physically behind bars, wouldn’t they? Or are people cluey enough nowadays to know that jail terms don’t always commence immediately? In other words, "jailed" in a headline would formerly have been understood to mean "has been locked up", but now it seems to mean "either has been locked up or will be locked up, but you have to read further to know which is the case in this case". -- JackofOz (talk) 00:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The reason they are not immediately jailed may have to do with the appeal process. Why the meaning of the word changed I don't understand. Need for snappier headlines? Rmhermen (talk) 00:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * To me at least, "jailed" means imprisoned, and "sentenced" means sentenced. The OED definitions also all seem to be synonyms of "imprisoned" or "confined", and not of "sentenced". If headline writers have been using "jailed" to mean "sentenced", they're being inaccurate. - Nunh-huh 03:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree, but they're all doing it. This seems to be the process of language change before our very eyes and ears.  If enough people say the wrong thing, the wrong thing becomes the right thing.  Why, only today I've heard radio reports, and seen and heard TV reports, about Marion Jones, and each time it was the unequivocal "Marion Jones has been jailed" - when in fact she's still out there in free-land until March.  Apparently she can report to prison at a time of her choosing some time between now and then; it's nothing to do with any appeals process as far as I can tell.  I just don't know whom to trust anymore! --  JackofOz (talk) 09:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You probably know this, but after a person is found guilty or pleads guilty, sentencing usually doesn't take place right away. The judge usually schedules a date for sentencing. And of course in some cases the guilty party may be 'released' pending sentencing (in cases for non-violent crimes like fraud etc) and are expected to appear back in court for sentencing. In such cases people use this opportunity to flee the country. Also, I *think* it's possible for the judge to hand down sentencing but only give a later date for the beginning of the sentence, such as "[next week] you will appear at place x to begin your sentence". Other reasons for this delay is parole issues, appeal issues, the defence attorney may want to be heard on sentencing, the prosecution may argue against the defence attorney, etc. There may be mitigating circumstances that would make it difficult to go straight into jail, etc. Rfwoolf (talk) 09:31, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Rfwoolf, but I didn't know that. Well, not the bit about sentences not beginning straight away.  There's often a lengthy delay between conviction and sentencing, but once the sentence is handed down, that should be it.  The stereotype one gets from movies and TV shows is the judge intoning "I hereby sentence you to XXX years in prison", and the convicted person being led away from the court room to spend their first night behind bars.  I don't see why the existence of an appeal would automatically mean the imprisonment should be deferred.  Appeals can go on for years, through various levels of court, and if the final appeal failed, and they'd never been to prison, they'd then have to start their term.  Whereas, if they'd been behind bars during the appeals process, they'd have much less time to serve by the time the final appeal was heard - or maybe they'd even be out by now.  Legally, they've been found guilty and been sentenced, so why shouldn't whatever punishment be applied forthwith.  There may be cases where the commencement of the sentence is delayed pending appeals or whatever, but there are just as many cases where the appeal is conducted while the person is behind bars.  It seems to be a quite recent development for jail sentences not to commence straight away, and the reasons, whatever they are, seem to have nothing to do with whether the conviction or the sentence is under appeal.  I've only ever heard of it in celebrity cases, but maybe it happens in non-celebrity cases too.  The perception remains, nevertheless, that celebrities get a better deal than other people.  That aside, I honestly can't see what benefit flows to the legal system, or society, by (a) putting off the inevitable and (b) letting a convicted person decide the commencement date of their own prison term.  --  JackofOz (talk) 23:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You seem to be forgetting that verdicts can be overturned, jail terms can be reduced etc. I presume if the judge feels there is a resonable chance this may happen, and the convict requests it, and there is no obvious danger or risk to keeping the person out of jail then there is no reason to deny the request (the same with any other bail request). If someone goes to jail when they shouldn't have or stays longer then they should have, there is NO WAY you can fix this. At best you can pay them compensation. However if you don't send a person to jail right away, you can send them later. It's not as if you're reducing the jail time. And as I said, I'm pretty sure this will usually happen only on request. Presuming the person doesn't feel their appeal has much chance, they'll most likely want to start their term as soon as possible rather then spend several months appealing in a cloud of doubt only to have to go to jail after that. Also, I don't know about in the U.S. but I'm pretty sure in most countries celebrity or not it doesn't matter (much). People only hear about it in the case of celebrities so they make a fuss but the law isn't that bad. The bigger problem, probably particularly in the U.S. is that celebrities or rather the rich have access to significantly better legal resources which makes a big difference. Also as the U.S. rarely allows much supression of the details involved in cases and it uses a jury system it's easily possible perhaps even likely that the jury is unduly influenced by the external coverage of a trial. The other issue perhaps is the difference in treatment of white collar crime but that's something for a seperate discussion Nil Einne (talk) 10:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * One point: In a case heavily covered by the media in the U.S., the jury is usually sequestered, so it's doubtful they would be affected by media coverage of the trial. It's possible they could be affected by media coverage before the trial, which is why there is an intensive jury-selection process and perhaps even a change of venue to another county in the most extreme situations. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 19:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The web site www diaries of doing time until the ice men cometh .co.uk will also give any person an inside view of the prison system for profit in the united states of america.It is an un-biased factual point of view,and explains the whole system.fluter.

PAGE NEEDS YOUR HELP!!!
HELP THIS PAGE Cold chill!!!--74.138.83.10 (talk) 00:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are many pages like that that need help on Wikipedia. The nice thing about Wikipedia is that ANYBODY can edit a page. Consider improving the page yourself. How to edit a page would be a good thing to read first. You could also consider getting a username here. --S.dedalus (talk) 02:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

how do i outsource on a small scale
I used to spend several hours a day copying and pasting responses to inquiries into my business. I've made a program that gets it down to just clicking a button to identify each e-mail and send the appropriate response and would like to take the final step of having someone else click the buttons instead of me. e.g. if I get an e-mail that says only "thank you", I click the 'thank you' button to identify that the e-mail should be answered with my 'you're welcome' form.

i'm thinking this identification could be done easily by anyone who speaks English, for example in India where call centers are frequently located (for example: Dell's). So, how do I go about purchasing a few minutes a day of someone's time to do this outsourcing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clickyclicks (talk • contribs) 08:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You do get business services (depending on where you are in the world) where you get assigned a number like 1800 123 456 which goes through to a call centre and your own shared receptionist is briefed on how to handle enquiries. The receptionist also works for a variety of other businesses that also each have their contact numbers. They usually are capable of sending emails for you based on the enquiries, for example if a customer calls in and asks for a brochure of more information on a product. However, some of these are based in western countries like the USA, UK or Australia where it would probably be more feasible to use a service in India or elsewhere (there are more nad more 'hubs' these days for this sort of thing, no longer just India). As a search strategy I would look for call centres and business services in places like India. Good luck, and I'm curious about your program. Rfwoolf (talk) 09:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You may also be interested in our article on Crowdsourcing and the Amazon Mechanical Turk. Haukur (talk) 16:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

calculation of Easter 1808
I am probably very stupid but can anyone tell me please where to find the date of Easter in 1808. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.100.195.10 (talk) 10:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * April 17. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 11:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * FYI, 194.171.56.13 found that by going to the Wikipedia article for Easter, scrolling to the bottom to find the list of external links, then clicking on the one that said "A simple method for determining the date of Easter". That is why Wikipedia is such a good first port of call, because for the most part the most informative links have already been assessed, whereas a search engine is rather hit and miss.--Shantavira|feed me 13:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Nah, I googled 'calculate easter', picked the first link, and after I had thoroughly checked the data on that website using computus, I posted it here. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 13:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Happily Married Philosopher?
Could anyone provide the names of some philosophers who were happily married? It is difficult to find some who were married, none that I can find that were notably happy about it. Elokiah Tu&#39;un (talk) 12:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There were none. The presence of women inhibits rational thought. Ix Dschubba 12:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Err, not all philosopers are men.--Shantavira|feed me 13:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Many of the women on that list are not even philosophers. George Eliot? Hildegard of Bingen? Iris Murdoch? It is special pleading in extremis. What a joke. Malcolm Starkey (talk) 22:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * More like the presence of a philosopher inhibits all feelings of affection.


 * NOTE: this is no mere conjecture! You could smell Socrates coming before you could see him (he so rarely bathed) and boy did I cringe reading in Russell's autobiography how he realized the reason he hadn't had any closeness from his wife for many months was a bad case of halitosis that she could not bring herself to mention to him.  Geez!  (BTW, to the poster asking the question, the Bertrand Russell autobriography -- that part specifically -- may be an interesting reference for you to follow up on)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.51.122.5 (talk) 13:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It is hard to judge a happy marriage from a regular one, at least for philosophers I don't know much about. But a quick look through some of the Lists of philosophers page provides some possibilities. Some people listed may not quite fit a strict definition of "philosopher". Some may be closer to scientists or artists, but they are listed as philosophers above, so.. As for marriage, these people seem to have had non-terrible marriages, but I don't know how happy. Some had divorces and maybe some family conflicts, but that is pretty common even among the "happily married" (what are the required qualities of a happy marriage anyway?). So who knows, but some ideas: Ralph Waldo Emerson, Carl Jung, Alfred Russel Wallace (maybe?), Kurt Gödel, John von Neumann (was the 2nd marriage happy?), Thomas Henry Huxley, Charles Darwin, Niels Bohr, Thomas Jefferson, Douglas Hofstadter, Freeman Dyson... Pfly (talk) 19:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Socrates said "By all means marry. If you find a good wife, you'll be happy. If not, you'll become a philosopher." Xn4  17:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Paul and Patricia Churchland seem happy enough. They also are both philosophers.--droptone (talk) 14:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Christine Overall, research chair at Queen's University and author of many works on ethics, is happily married. BrainyBabe (talk) 23:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * John Stuart Mill? Quorumangelorum (talk) 19:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Tabula Gerlandi
Apparently there was this guy Gerlandus who worked out some sort of chronology, tabula Gerlandi or computatio Gerlandi, which was off by a few years from the conventional Anno Domini chronology. But I have difficulty finding solid information on this and Wikipedia comes up blank. Haukur (talk) 13:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This page mentions him as from Alsace-Lorraine and coming after Bede: . Rmhermen (talk) 15:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Is he the same as the Gerlandus of Besançon discused here: ? Rmhermen (talk) 15:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Mostly I find notes to note confuse him with John Garland of England but little information on the "Garlandus, a canon of Besançon in the 12th century" (EB). He apparently wrote about music theory as well? Rmhermen (talk) 15:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There are French and Italian wikipedia stubs about that Saint Gerland, fr:Gerland d'Agrigente and it:San Gerlando. They don't mention the calendar, though. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 15:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think he is our man, because this mentions "Table de Gerland de Besançon (pour les années de 1044 à 1548)". 194.171.56.13 (talk) 15:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There are apparently two Gerlands of Besançon which appear in documents and are often confused. The one we're interested in wrote his treatise in 1081 and is cited as early as 1102, the other is mentioned c. 1132-48. The music theorist is probably Johannes de Garlandia?&mdash;eric 16:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Gerland gives 1081 as the date of his twenty-seven chapters, Computus.&mdash;eric 15:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, you all! Looks like a redirect from Gerlandus to Gerland is reasonable. Apparently his tabula started in 1038 by his reckoning, 1045 by the AD system. It's used in some Old Norse documents, which is how I came upon it. Haukur (talk) 16:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe it would be better to make Gerlandus a disambiguation page, that distinguishes between Gerland the mathematician and St. Gerland bishop of Agrigento, both from Besançon. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 16:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

We have articles for: and disambiguation pages for: And I still don't know who Gerland/Gerlandus is. Are some of these the same people?Rmhermen (talk) 22:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Johannes de Garlandia (philologist)
 * Johannes de Garlandia (music theorist)
 * Gerland
 * Garlandus Compotista
 * John Garland
 * Jean de Garlande
 * John of Garlande
 * Johannes de Garlandia


 * Gerland and Garlandus Compotista are the same. All the disambiguation pages should redirect to the same place. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "...Garlandus Compotista. His Dialectica, which may have been written before 1040, is the earliest complete medieval logic text still extant..." Wagner, David L. (1983) The Seven Liberal Arts in the Middle Ages. p. 135.
 * "...and the computus of John of Gerland, written in the eleventh century, were to be the most influential medieval treatises in this genre." Ibid. p. 232.
 * "...the Dialectica of Garland the Computist (i.e. author of a computus, or treatise on the calculation of almanacs), which may have been composed in Liège a little before 1040..." Kneale, Martha and Kneale, William. (1984) The Development of Logic. p. 199.
 * "Garlandus of Besançon is known for his Dialectica, a comprehensive textbook on logic which was probably written at the turn of the twelfth century." Marenbon, John. (1998) Medieval Philosophy. p. 152-3.
 * "...the Lotharingian scholar, Garlandus Composita (d. before 1086), refers in his Dialectica..." Webber, Teresa. (1992) Scribes and Scholars at Salisbury Cathedral, C. 1075-C. 1125. p. 94.
 * "Garlandus was associated with the schools at Liége, and in 1084 was magister scholarum at Besane" Ibid. fn. 53, p. 94.
 * "...Gerland in his Computus,...Author likewise of treatises on the abacus and on ecclesiastical matters, Gerland has usually been identified with a canon of Besançon who appears in documents of 1132-48,...It would seem, however, that this is a different person from the computist, who specifically gives the year of his treatise as 1081, whose 'floruit' is given as 1084 at Besançon by Albericus, and who is cited as early as 1102." Homer, Charles. (1924) Studies in the History of Mediaeval Science. p. 85.
 * "...Garlandus Compotista's Dialectica, a work from about 1080..." Radding, Charles M. and Newton, Francis. (2003) Theology, Rhetoric, and Politics in the Eucharistic Controversy, 1078-1079. fn. 34, p. 44.
 * The first (Wagner 1983) presents two authors, but "John of Gerland" and eleventh century looks like to be an error.&mdash;eric 01:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks like this is as messy as it gets :) Our sources are confused, our articles are confused and we are confused. Haukur (talk) 02:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Gays in Bangladesh?
According to your article, you said that people who directed and produced the film "A Jihad for Love" interviewed people in Bangladesh. It is this true that Bangladesh, a poor Muslim nation, has people who are gay and lesbian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.53.196 (talk) 15:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it would be true to say that all countries have people of all sexualities. DuncanHill (talk) 15:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Our article LGBT rights in Bangladesh may be of interest. DuncanHill (talk) 15:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Homosexuality knows no national or religious boundaries. —Nricardo (talk) 01:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Except those of Iran, obviously. Algebraist 03:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You may have a hard time finding a homosexual of either gender in Vatican City as well. Dismas |(talk) 04:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, acknowledged homosexuals, anyway. --  JackofOz (talk) 04:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Last time I checked, you could feel as homosexual as you liked in the Roman Catholic church -- you just couldn't act on those feelings. --Carnildo (talk) 22:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Poems written by Alexander Scriabin
As a pianist, I have found that Aleander Scriabin's (Russian Composer, 1872-1915) works for the piano are simply exhilarating to play. I own a copy of almost every work that he has written. However, in many of the books, there are excerpts of textual poetry that he has written to describe the various musical pieces. I have looked online for more of these poems, but to no avail. I read online that he wrote a lot of poetry, but I can find nothing textual written by him, other than his musical poems. I would love to find out more about what he wrote mainly because he is my favorite composer. Any help would be greatly appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.234.31.199 (talk) 23:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Here’s some – . Another reference is .  Apparently Faubion Bowers' book Scriabin: A Biography contains excerpts and translations of some his poetry – .  --  JackofOz (talk) 00:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * [//worldcat.org/identities/lccn-n80-86161 Works by or about Alexander Scriabin] in libraries (WorldCat catalog) -Arch dude (talk) 03:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)