Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 July 12

= July 12 =

Zimbabwean interest rates
It's just be announced that the Zimbabwean central bank are increasing interest rates from 6,500% to 8,500%, however inflation is at over 9,000,000%. Am I missing something, or are the central bank effectively handing out free money? By the time banks borrowing at that rate have to pay the loan back it's shrunk considerably in real terms. However, people are complaining that these interest rates are too high and are hurting banks. I really don't understand... --Tango (talk) 03:35, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think they're handing out free money: judging by the article on the Z.$, they're handing out free coloured paper. We think of the German inflation as bad, with people burning money for fuel because it burnt longer than the amount of wood that it could buy, but according to the Z.$, the only reason that the increasing money supply in the Z.$ has been (at one point) that the Z. government couldn't buy ink and paper to print more.  I think the big question is: how can their economy continue to function at a rate far worse than Germany ever had?  Nyttend (talk) 14:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Zimbabwe isn't as bad as Germany yet - Germany peaked at millions of percent per month, Zimbabwe is at millions of percent per year (at the official rate, the real rate is higher, but I'm not sure how much higher). --Tango (talk) 17:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * True; I misread the Z$ article. Although who knows how long it will go on; Germany's stamps only reached fifty billion marks, while if the rate keeps going (the Z$ going from 12¼ billion to 19½ billion per US$ from the beginning of July until now) Zimbabwe may have to make corresponding prices even higher.  At least it's not as much as with Hungary, with stamps of ½ quintillion pengos.  Nyttend (talk) 03:02, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The amount of time it's been going on for is significant - the hyperinflation in Germany lasted about 2.5 years, it's been going on in Zimbabwe for about 7 or 8, with pretty high inflation before that. That's why the highest denomination notes in Zimbabwe are already 50 billion dollars despite the rate of inflation being much less than in Germany. --Tango (talk) 03:07, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd guess there's been a 1000:1 devaluation of the currency and that you're comparing NewMugabeBux with OldMugabeBux. StuRat (talk) 15:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The 1000:1 devaluation was a couple of years ago, the figures I'm stating have been published this week. --Tango (talk) 16:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There might be people still using the old system, however. After all, aren't there lots of Brits still using traditional units, like hands and stones, long after metric units have become official ? StuRat (talk) 17:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think there are (people are more likely to drop zeros rather than add more when prices are already measured in billions), but either way, these are official figures, so we can be pretty certain they are using the current currency. One possibility I've thought of is that the interest rates are quoted as monthly rates, rather than the more common annual rates (which the inflation figure definitely is), but I can't find anything to support that theory (or to disprove it). --Tango (talk) 18:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * To attempt an answer at the original question: I think that whoever said that banks are being hurt by this was referring either to the fact that banks are lenders (i.e. they take depositors' money and lend it out for interest) so they'll lose for the reason you note or (more likely, imo) higher interest rates implies higher bad debts and lower profits. Note that at the inflation rate you quote, prices double every 22 days by my calc but this would not be the case for wages from where repayments are made. Although it could have been said in some other context. For example, financial assets (which are what banks hold) are generally expected to decrease in value when interest rates become higher than expected. They may also have been pointing out that hedges are not affordable, but now I'm just guessing. Anyway, economic theories weren't designed to be true under these circumstances. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 12:15, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Yi San opening theme music?
I like this Yi San opening theme music:. Does anyone know if it has a name? --71.141.156.137 (talk) 04:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Well known tune
You know that tune everyone can play on the piano, the one that goes C C C CBABCD E E E EDCDEF G C AGFED(repeat)?

Does that have a name?

Also, does it have lyrics? I've a vague recollection of Niles and Daphne singing along to it in a Frasier episode. AndyJones (talk) 07:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's called Heart and Soul - music by Hoagy Carmichael, lyrics by Frank Loesser. Hundreds of singers have recorded it, but I can honestly report the only times I've ever heard it are when 1 or 2 pianists belt it out.  --  JackofOz (talk) 08:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes it is Heart and Soul (song), thank you. AndyJones (talk) 09:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Funny. I've always known it was Fings Ain't Wot They Used T'be - and it clearly is: listen to this. I'd never heard of the Carmichael song before today, and supposed that the slight differences in tune were just flourishes people added when they played it.
 * The Carmichael song is older, so I guess it has priority. I wonder if Lionel Bart knew it? --ColinFine (talk) 12:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry to upset your applecart, Colin. They're similar, but different.
 * Fings: C C C ABCD E E E CDEF G G AFDBC
 * Heart and Soul: C C C CBABCD E E E EDCDEF G C AGF E D C.
 * It's very common to find 2 tunes that have striking similarities, but are just different enough to be distinguished (for those that have ears to hear). Heart and Soul is one of these pieces that, for unknown reasons, is in a small group of tunes that millions of people play when they sit down to a piano at a party (the other 2 that come to mind are Für Elise and a little jaunty thing played on the black keys with the knuckles, the name of which, if it has one, I don't know, but it goes something like B-flat A-flat G-flat E-flat E-flat etc).  Most people who play Heart and Soul don't know what its name is (it's just "that tune we play"), so I'm not at all surprised you've never heard its name.  --  JackofOz (talk) 01:48, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * That piece you can't name... I don't know either, but I looked at Category:Musical memes, and Der Flohwalzer shares some properties with it. I wonder if it could be a variant.  If you Google "knuckle song" you'll find several people wondering about its origins and not getting any answers.  --Allen (talk) 02:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, Jack, I said the tune was slightly different. But as for my applecart - I didn't say I thought it was Fings - I said I knew it was Fings - and I did. Max Bygraves' recording was familiar in Britain at the time, and that's what we played. Furthermore, I haven't found a version of Heart and Soul from which I can determine the B music, but I guess it's quite different from Fings - and we sometimes used to put in the B music of Fings. I remember hearing what I now know to be Heart and Soul as a funky variant of the tune. And if we're being picky - I don't think I've ever heard it with the straight rhythm of Heart and Soul as written - it's always dotted. --ColinFine (talk) 10:04, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry if I came across as picky, Colin. That would never be my intention.  It seems to me that the tune you played was "Fings Ain't Wot They Used T'be"; you would certainly know better than I what tune you played.  But whether it's the same tune as the one AndyJones asked about is a different matter.  The notes he specified correspond exactly to Heart and Soul, but only roughly to Fings after the third C.  As for the rhythm, we didn't get into that, we were just focussing on the notes in order to identify the tune.  But you're dead right, many of them are dotted.  Cheers.  --  JackofOz (talk) 12:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

San Galgano Abbey - Tuscany
Can someone write an article on this abbey.... quite fascinating (few articles on web but commercial)220.235.225.219 (talk) 09:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)Pete


 * You should post about this to Wikipedia's requested articles page. You'll find instructions for how to go about it at that page. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 14:09, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You could also try requesting a translation of Abbazia di San Galgano.&mdash;eric 16:40, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

How many civilians died through Luftwaffe bombings in Soviet Union
How many civilians died through Luftwaffe bombings in Soviet Union ? Information about civilian vicitims of Luftwaffe in Soviet Union is missing from all articles about bombing in WW2. I know there was bombing of cities but I would like to know exact data. --Molobo (talk) 14:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Those records may not exist. I doubt that Stalin would have felt the need to keep records of such deaths. StuRat (talk) 19:14, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thinking this through, it seems far more plausible that Stalin may have preferred (and mandated?) no records be kept of his own slaughter of Soviet civilians in peacetime. But why would he have rejected or suppressed recordkeeping of Luftwaffe damage to Soviet people and property? Once the Germans broke faith and turned on their former ally, I should think documentation of Soviet losses would be valuable in wartime intelligence and postwar reparations. -- Deborahjay (talk) 15:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Since WW2 was likely to end with either a total defeat for the Soviet Union or them having control over large parts of Europe, it wasn't going to come down to having verifiable claims for reparitions. Instead the Soviet Union would simply loot all of Eastern Europe of whatever they could get.  And, if they ever did find a need for "proof of atrocities", they could simply produce some, even if this required that they massacre a few million people for "evidence". StuRat (talk) 05:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't find this on Wikipedia.
"At the close of the 8th century, Pope Hadrian I (772-795) confirmed the decrees of the 6th Synod of Constantinople held almost a century earlier and commanded that thereafter "the figure of a man should take the place of a lamb on the cross." Thanks. Imagine Reason (talk) 18:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, well, it doesn't quite strike me as a reliable source -- as far as I can tell, this is just some guy on the internet. Considering that his site also includes things like "Gangster hires Pimp to write Bible!", I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this isn't likely to pass muster. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 20:09, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The original source for that particular quote (it is not a direct quote of what Hadrian apparently said) is Marshall Gauvin, Did Jesus Christ Really Live? (online). The online version isn't dated but it seems our Mr. Gauvin published most of his anti-religious stuff in the 1910s-1920s. If you Google Books search "hadrian cross lamb" you get some interesting results; the two categories of works that report the above switcheroo regarding Christ and the lamb are either very recent, non-scholarly books (again, mostly anti-religious stuff), and very old, scholarly books (late 19th, early 20th century). Odd stuff. It seems pretty hard to find something with a decent footnote, though. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I seem to remember that there was one kind of wall graffiti of a crucified lamb in an ancient Roman catacomb or something -- but no evidence that it was ever a widespread symbol... AnonMoos (talk) 07:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you are thinking of the Alexamenos graffito which shows a man with the head of an ass, crucified, carved on a wall in Rome, dating to the late 1st thru late 3rd century, inscribed ""Alexamenos, worship God" or "Alexamenos worships his God". It is thought to mock the belief of a Christian. Edison (talk) 13:47, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Note that our article is listed under his alternate name Pope Adrian I, although we do have a redirect there from Pope Hadrian I. StuRat (talk) 19:04, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Manhattan/Chicago map
Does anyone know where I could find a map of Manhattan superimposed over a map of Chicago (same scale, of course). Failing that, what would be the best way to create one?&mdash; Chowbok  ☠  20:06, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * To create one:
 * go to google maps, find chicago, take a screenshot and paste into a decent image editor like GIMP
 * do the same for NY, making sure your at the same scale. Paste into a second layer on the same image
 * make the NY layer translucent, and move it around as you desire
 * (for GIMP substitute Photoshop or Illustrator or Inkscape or whatever tool you have to hand)


 * (aside: You don't say if you're intend to upload this image to Wikipedia - if so, please use a PD map source such as wikitravel:Wikitravel:How to create a map instead of Google)


 * -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:21, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Why would you want said map? I don't ask to be difficult, but knowing the purpose of something like that will make it more clear what the "best way" to create one would be—whether you'll want to have a few transparent layers of maps or whether you'll want something else. It'll just look like a mash of lines unless you create it for a specific purpose. If you're trying to get an idea of relative size or whatever, that's not a good way to do it except in order to get raw square mileage; it won't tell you about relative densities, which are more important for most things. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It could be for the purpose of a psychogeographical investigation. One of the ideas behind psychogeography is that you should be able to find your way around a city by referring to a map of a completely different city. --Richardrj talkemail 19:17, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

C-Span & the Green Party
The convention has not aired yet, according to this:

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=206375-1

But it will be shown at some time today, according to this:

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/

I can't find the exact time it will air. When, and on which of the three C-Span channels, will the Green Party Candidate Nominating Convention air? 71.174.26.247 (talk) 21:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)ChiouChan

Is there a single USA president that did not start nor participated in a war during his time in office?
Thanks you 87.116.154.181 (talk) 22:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * William Henry Harrison. Algebraist 22:59, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, lots. Jackson, Van Buren (unless you count the Aroostook War), Harrison, Tyler, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan... OK, I'm bored of listing them. Compare this timeline of wars to this timeline of US presidents and you can find them easily enough. The most recent one was Jimmy Carter, unless you count the Cold War as your war (I am assuming though you mean armed military conflicts). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe that it also has something to do with how you define "war". Carter certainly didn't start a war but he ordered Operation Eagle Claw against Iran. And some of the names listed above had problems (sometimes resolved through force) with the Indians. I'm also listing the relativly bloodless Utah War under Buchanan (arguably a revolt). The link provided above seems to present some problems Flamarande (talk) 18:53, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * 'War' is a pretty clear word, but I'm afraid many people's reading of it is being coloured by its disingenuous use in the expression 'War on Terror'. Xn4  ( talk ) 01:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not a clear word at all. There are lots of different kinds of conflict and whether or not they are called wars often depends more on politics than anything else. --Tango (talk) 01:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The meaning is certainly broad (a violent conflict on a large scale), and wars are still wars when they aren't lawfully declared, but what we properly mean by 'war' doesn't seem to me to be in much doubt. If politicians are to be allowed to decide that a war isn't a war, or that a non-war is a war, then aren't we made fools of? Xn4  ( talk ) 05:25, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Nobody can make a fool of you; one does that oneself. rewritten to avoid sounding like I'm actually calling anyone specific a fool. Curse you modern English for the clumsiness such things. Anyway, I think this has started to stray from the question into something quite different that is going to quickly degenerate if people aren't careful... 79.66.54.186 (talk) 18:13, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Andrew Jackson, 1829-1837? Black Hawk War, Second Seminole War. Martin Van Buren, 1837-1841? Second Seminole War. William Henry Harrison, well okay, but his term lasted all of a month. John Tyler, 1841-1845? Second Seminole War. Zachary Taylor, well he served for just 16 months, but still there was the Cayuse War. Millard Fillmore, 1850-1853? Cayuse War. Franklin Pierce, 1853-1857? Cayuse War, Seminole Wars. James Buchanan, 1857-1861? Seminole Wars, and the Utah War, arguably. The wars between the United States and the Indians are often overlooked or dismissed as irrelevant or somehow not really wars. But they were almost always declared as wars by Congress, and ended with treaties of sort the US used for dealing with any sovereign nation. In short these wars were "lawfully declared" and resolved by treaty. Granted the Indian Wars and the treaties resulting were of a different nature than those conducted with European powers. Nonetheless it seems to me a disservice to pass over these wars as somehow not counting. Pfly (talk) 06:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)