Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 July 23

= July 23 =

Susan Rice and Condoleezza Rice
What is the connection between Susan Rice and Condoleezza Rice? -- adaptron  (talk) 01:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * They both worked at State? They aren't related. --Golbez (talk) 01:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Right. says "The Rices are not related". PrimeHunter (talk) 02:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that grain of knowledge. StuRat (talk) 06:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

reckoning years B.C.
How did people who lived B.C. reckon the year they were living in? For example, we say that Plato founded the Academy in 387 B.C., but what year was it to Plato, who despite his talents could not see Christ coming in three-plus centuries? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dukesnyder1027 (talk • contribs) 01:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Many calendars with different years have been used through the times, and more than one is still used. See List of calendars. Hellenic calendars looks complicated and I don't know what Plato would have said. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * He presumably would have used one of the Athenian calendars whenever necessary, but that wouldn't be very useful in everyday conversation. For that he would have reckoned the year in terms of the eponymous archon. Since our January-December year cuts across two different years in ancient Athens, the archon in 387 was either Pyrgion or Theodotus, depending on when specifically the Academy was founded. That wouldn't have meant much to anyone outside Athens though; another "multinational" way of reckoning the year was by the Olympiad (387 would be the first year of the 98th Olympiad, unless my math is horribly wrong, which is quite likely...). He could have also reckoned the year in terms of some other well-known event; the death of Socrates for example (399), or the conquest of Athens by Sparta (404), would have been useful personal and political events. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.170.49 (talk)


 * Note that the Anno Domini system was only invented in AD 525 and wasn't widely adopted until centuries after that. Many other year numbering systems were used before then and many are still used now. Regnal year numbering is still fairly common in Japan, for example, and according to the article was used officially in the UK until 1963. -- BenRG (talk) 10:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Photo identification
I'm trying to find the photo of a dirty-looking (rural?) girl from a poor region of China that won an award for depicting the area's underdevelopment. I've never personally seen the photograph, though, and know of it only because another person described it. --Bowlhover (talk) 02:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * She's not Chinese, but make sure Sharbat Gula isn't the one you're thinking of. Oddly, when I did a Google image search for "national geographic girl" to find that person's name, I also hit a picture of a Chinese (well, Tibetan) girl. Maybe this is what you're thinking of. Matt Deres (talk) 12:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Tibetan girl Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 17:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Flikr Picture Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 17:35, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

what qualifies as an essential governmental function?
what qualifies as an essential governmental function? I need to document this as well. Please Help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.83.64.218 (talk) 02:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Where and in which context? If the term is from a specific text then say which. Maybe a Google search can help you. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

in the state of georgia specifically as used in the housing authority code —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.83.64.218 (talk) 02:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Most likely, the term "essential governmental function" is defined by the relevant code. If it is not listed in the code, it may be explained by case law. If you have access to a law library (most courts, law schools, universities, Lexis, WestLaw), ask the law librarian for help. To say more may constitute the practice of law.75Janice (talk) 02:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)75Janice

Genealogical relationships
The question above about Condy and Susan Rice got me thinking. Strictly speaking, all humans are related. It's just that in many cases it would be impossible to identify the exact relationship. I read somewhere, lost now, that it would not be be necessary to go back any further than 55 generations, assuming all the records were available (which they're not), to establish the exact connection between any 2 random people who have ever lived are alive today (I struck out the "have ever lived" because clearly humans go back further than 55 generations.) Is this true, and how do they know about the 55 generations? If I took a random Inuit and a random Kalahari bushman, is it really true that they're no further apart than 55th cousins? -- JackofOz (talk) 03:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Within 55 generations, I'd assume that they wouldn't be a part of the same descent, but it's quite probable that there'd be some common people in their family tree, i.e. they have 6th cousins 5 times removed in common. Quite an assumption. There are groups of people who might be exceptions, that is, people in the highlands of PNG and in the deep Amazon would be harder to find a link to. However, 55 generations might be enough to do it. Steewi (talk) 03:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This is the concept of most recent common ancestor. According to the article, estimates for the time during which the MRCA was alive range from approx. 30 000 years ago to as recent as 1000-2000 years ago.  One to two millenia seems to be the amount of time required for 55 generations.  --Bowlhover (talk) 04:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Checking the MRCA link shows that the estimate of 1000 years ago is for the MRCA of Western Europeans. TresÁrboles (talk) 20:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I was referring to this preceding sentence: "However, Rohde, Olson, and Chang (2004)[3], using a non-genetic model, estimated that the MRCA of all living humans may have lived within historical times (3rd millennium BC to 1st millennium AD)."  --Bowlhover (talk) 18:28, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * That makes sense. Thanks for the answers.  --  JackofOz (talk) 12:28, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Cakes and Ale?
In the Shakespeare play, Twelfth Night, Sir Toby Belch states: "[...]Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?" What exactly are the 'cakes' suppose to be? Cakes or something else?--Honeymane Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam 05:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * According to John Leslie Hotson: Banbury cakes.&mdash;eric 06:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * See note at Cakes and Ale to the effect that cakes and ale are the emblems of the good life in the tagline to the fable attributed to Aesop, The Town Mouse and the Country Mouse: "Better beans and bacon in peace than cakes and ale in fear"..--Wetman (talk) 08:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Seashell Traveling
How many days would it take to reach the border of Scotland from London by carriage? How many days extra if the carriage was made of seashell?

Thank you!MelancholyDanish (talk) 06:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)MelancholyDanish


 * What sort of carriage (railway carriage? Horse-drawn carriage?) and what kind of roads? That makes all the difference. I doubt whether anyone could make a useable carriage out of nothing but shell, which is very brittle.--Shantavira|feed me 07:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * That depends on whether the hippocamps drawing the seashell carriage were winged or not. --Wetman (talk) 08:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, is the hippocamp African or European? 12.43.92.140 (talk) 16:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The baseline is perhaps the ordinary stage coach journey. An advertisement in the Edinburgh Courant for 1754 reads: The Edinburgh Stage-coach, for the better accomodation of passengers, will be altered to a New Genteel Two-end Glass Coach Machine, being on steel springs, exceeding light and easy, to go in ten days in Summer and twelve in Winter; to set out the first Tuesday in March, and continue it, from Hosea Eastgate's, the Coach and Horses, in Dean-Street, Soho, London; and from John Somerville's, in the Canongate, Edinburgh, every other Tuesday, and meet at Burrow-Bridge on Saturday night, and set out from thence on Monday morning, and get to London and Edinburgh on Friday. In Winter, to set out from London to Edinburgh every other (alternate) Monday morning, and to go to Burrowbridge on Saturday night; and to set out from thence on Monday morning, and get to London and Edinburgh on Saturday night. Passengers to pay as usual. Performed, if God permits, by your dutiful servant HOSEA EASTGATE. One supposes the hippocamps and seashell coach could improve on this, or why would anyone use them? Xn4 ( talk ) 17:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes! You've told me exactly what I needed to know. You guys are wonderful. MelancholyDanish (talk) 18:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)MelancholyDanish


 * P. S. The article doesn't mention this or not, so are hippocamps able to travel on land? MelancholyDanish (talk) 18:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)MelancholyDanish


 * No, the hippocamp London-Edinburgh route closely follows the North Sea coast, crossing The Wash and following the same route taken when delivering coals to Newcastle.--Wetman (talk) 18:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

education of 25 year olds in the US and France.
1. What % of current 25 year olds living in the U.S. have a bachelors degree or higher? 2. In France what % of current 25 year olds have a university degree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.239.144 (talk) 14:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As of 2003, 27% of those 25 and over in the US had a college degree. Of those specifically 25-29, 28% had such a degree. I expect there's not a major deviation likely to be found between "25 and up" and "25 only". &mdash; Lomn 15:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As for France, I find conflicting and dubious information. USAToday reported 20% "college completion" for French students vs 17% for Americans, while The Economist noted a 24% degreed European workforce versus 39% American. The USAToday numbers in particular do not mesh well with anything I've found elsewhere (note also that France's 30% attendance vs 20% completion flatly contradicts the oft-echoed ~50% first-year dropout rate discussed by The Economist), but that's the closest thing I've found to a single number. &mdash; Lomn 15:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If you use OECD statistics you have some chance of making a fair comparison. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. You must also check that the definition of "college degree" is the same for both countries. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * OECD's online stats are hard to navigate, or I would direct you to the exact page. The International Labor Organization is another possibility. The definition of degree for France and USA will never be identical but you want to use the definitions that are accepted for international use. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Political prayer
Which religious groups, if any, accept (or promote) the use of prayer for political means, such as to influence an election or other political event? And among Neopagans and Wiccans, is it acceptable to use magic(k), spells and rituals for political purposes? 68.123.238.140 (talk) 16:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * For the second question, there's no way to generalize about such things; there are almost as many varieties of neopagans and wiccans as there are neopagans and wiccans, and issues such as the ethics of ritual are one of the distinguishing features. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 17:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd imagine it's quite common - for example as a child I remember praying as a group for 'the leaders of south africa to see sense and end apartheid' - that was in a christian church.87.102.86.73 (talk) 20:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh that sort of thing is, yes. Praying that leaders will be wise, honest and just is quite common in christian churches, but I don't know if that's the sort of thing they were asking about. Notice how that prayer did not ask for a specific electoral result, or even that those in charge be usurped. 79.66.124.253 (talk) 01:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * See Rule of Three (Wiccan). Wiccans are very reluctant to try to influence others.   Corvus cornix  talk  23:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Religion and politics often get intertwined. See for example Christian democracy, Christian socialism, Islamism, Hindutva. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:05, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Having formal separation of church and state is no guarantee this won't happen.  --  JackofOz (talk) 03:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)