Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 June 26

= June 26 =

Tomari and Shuri
"Together with the martial arts styles of Tomari and Shuri it formed the basis for Okinawa-te, which in turn is the origin of today's karate-do."

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naha%2C_Okinawa#Martial_arts

Tomari and Shuri are cities. What are they talking about?68.148.164.166 (talk) 00:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm reading it that particular styles of martial arts were associated with & hence known by the name of particular towns; and more recently a mix of three specific styles formed Okinawa-te. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

How many Indo-Canadians in Great Britian?
Hi. There are some Indo-Canadians who are living and working in United Kingdom. Does anyone know how many Canadian citizens of South Asian/Indian descent who are currently living in Britian? An information link will be great. Thanks. Sonic99 (talk) 01:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You won't find this published anywhere. In principle it could be calculated from the 2001 Census, but you would have to put in a query to the Office for National Statistics and say why you needed the information. And even then it would only be true for 2001. The best way to do an estimate is to find out how many Canadian citizens are living in the UK, then find out from Canadian statistics what proportion of Canadians are of South Asian descent. This would assume that Canadians of all ethnic backgrounds are equally likely to come to the UK to work, which may not be a valid assumption, but it might yield a good enough estimate for whatever purpose you are interested in. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Census 2001 data would be of no use, since its ethnicity categorisation does not go down to such an obscure level. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:14, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No, the ethnicity categories don't but nationality was asked. Anyway it is not in the published tables and the OP is going to have difficulty making more than a very rough estimate. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * People of South Asian descent comprise approximately 4% of the Canadian population (see Demographics of Canada) and Canadians in the United Kingdom number around 70,000. At a rough guess, I would say perhaps there are 2,800 Indo-Canadians are in United Kingdom if, like Itsmejudith said, Canadians of all ethnic backgrounds are equally likely to come to the UK.  Astronaut (talk) 23:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Italian language
I was wondering about the Disney film / story of Pinocchio in which two of the main characters are named Pinocchio and Geppetto. (spelling?) Do those words have any literal meaning in Italian (or any language)? Or are they some sort of "play-on-words" in Italian (or any language)? They seem like they are either real words or play-on-words, as they are rather odd character names. Does anyone know? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC))


 * The The Adventures of Pinocchio page says: "Pinocchio is from Latin pīnus, "pine" (Italian pino), and the diminutive suffix -uculum (Italian -occhio)." That page also discounts the theory given on the Pinocchio page, that the name means "pine eye". The Adventures of Pinocchio page also says ""Geppetto" is a nickname for Giuseppe." Pfly (talk) 05:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. So his name means, literally, "small pinewood" ... or, figuratively, "little boy made from pinewood" then ...?   (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 11:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC))

TV coverage of criminal cases
I was surprised this morning that I was able to watch video of the verdict being handed down in the Entwistle murder case. Then I remembered that the OJ Simpson murder trial was also broadcast on TV. In the UK, TV cameras (and photography and audio recording, for that matter) are not allowed in courtrooms. What are the rules in the USA, and elsewhere, regarding the recording of criminal trials? Does it vary from state to state and by the type of court? --Richardrj talkemail 09:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it varies. Each state has its own rules.  Even within a state that allows cameras, each judge can allow/disallow them in his court in any given trial.  The general trend is to open the courts more freely and provide more public, open access and more transparency ... and thus, the trend is more toward allowing the cameras in.   (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 11:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC))
 * Thanks for that. I'm not at all convinced, however, that allowing cameras into courtrooms brings more access and transparency.  Courtrooms already have public galleries and journalists are allowed to report freely on cases (unless reporting restrictions are imposed for some legal reason).  I have the feeling that broadcasting courtroom proceedings brings in an uncomfortable element of "justice as entertainment", maybe even trivialization.  Is there a Wikipedia article on this subject?  I can't find one. --Richardrj talkemail 11:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't follow you. (1) Wouldn't allowing more (or all) of the public (i.e., millions of people into a limited size courtroom with only xx seats) via camera be the very definition of greater public access and greater transparency?  And (2) A reporter comes with inherent bias and human error ... not only in what he reports, but also in what he chooses to report.  A camera "tells no lies" and simply offers the facts, without any attached bias.  No?   Whether the viewing public views this as entertainment is a whole separate issue.  (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 12:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC))


 * A camera "tells no lies" = the very definition of naive. You should perhaps acquaint yourself with the dark art of the television editorial process. If you anticipate that television will have a nil or solely positive effect on the participants at the trial, I think you'll be sorely disappointed. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Having searched, I think there is not an article along the lines of Impact of television on the judicial process or Television and the judicial process. It's certainly an area tha5t has been studied academically and by governments and judiciaries, so there's no lack of source material. IIRC, Scotland was considering the matter only very recently - last month or two. Ah: "TV cameras have been allowed in Scottish courts under strict supervision since 1992." according to. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes indeed. Under Scots law, it is up to the sherrif or judge in question to decide if cameras are allowable. They have almost never agreed to their inclusion.-- Neo  Nerd  22:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Mixed black/white Arab
Hi there, I know this question had been asked before but I want to know the question. Why black people and white people have mulatto children while their Arab counterpart doesn't have mulatto children? Does it have to do with Religion or something else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.52.30 (talk) 15:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * To the best of my knowledge, "mulatto" is a defined term which refers only to the offspring of one white and one black parent, and then to succeeding generations. The word "mulatto" indicates the child is of a specific mixed-race parentage. (I understand that "race" here is an awkward concept. If someone has a more explicit term that will help the questioner, please feel free to use it here.) There are mixed-race childern, one of whose parents is Arabic, undoubtedly. (I know one personally whose father is a Palestinian and whose mother is Italian.) I just don't know what term there is for this specific mix. I suspect you can safely assume that there are children from almost any mix somewhere in the world. While a strong religious background, where the religion only admits members of a single "race", might keep some people from breeding outside their religious group, even that is no insurance. And certainly that fact that while many Arabs are Muslims, not all of them are, and not all Muslims are Arabs. What limitations exist are more likely to be ones of opportunity than of religion. ៛ Bielle (talk) 17:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * At least in the U.S. Census and related matters, Arabs are considered white. So the question doesn't arise. Rmhermen (talk) 19:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The importance of US Census designations notwithstanding (and here is a link for that information), I am not sure that is true worldwide. If the questioner is talking about the US, it may be the answer to the question. "Mulatto" is not a designation in the Census either, which confuses the issue. ៛ Bielle (talk) 21:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Mulatto" has a quaint ring to it. I was once informed by a man from New Orleans that he was "octoroon"! I told him that I knew the term from old books but had never heard it spoken. (Privately I also thought he'd never pass for black in New York!) --Wetman (talk) 23:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Only white-people town in US
I know this question may sound challenging but out of curiosity, is there a place in US where it is dominated inhabited by white people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.52.30 (talk) 15:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * There are lots of small towns in certain parts of the country that are all, or nearly all, white. For example,Summerhill, PA, which I drive through every morning, lists 1 Asian person and the rest white, in the census count.  If I kept looking up other nearby towns, I could probably find one that's 100% white.  If you require larger towns, then of course it will be harder to find somewhere that's completely white.  (I hope, of course, that this isn't part of your "where should I move" selection process...) -- Coneslayer (talk) 15:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I remember reading a section about this in The Largest U.S. Cities Named After a Foodand Other Mind-Boggling Geography Lists from Around the World by Brandt Maxwell, that listed cities with a 20,000+ population with the most whites, blacks, hispanics, asians, etc. I don't have the book, but I remember that it's in Chapter 6. Spencer  T♦C 20:50, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Slope County, North Dakota had 767 people in 2000, 765 of them white: . -- Mwalcoff (talk) 21:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

There were Sundown towns... AnonMoos (talk) 22:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * There are small towns in the southern U.S. which drove all Negros out in the early 20th century, and which to the present day have no Black residents. Edison (talk) 04:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There are doubtless some towns which once had the "sundown sign" publicly displayed, and which had a history of lynching or other racial violence toward those who did not comply, and which today have no sign and no Blacks in residence, since no one has tested the waters. Edison (talk) 12:38, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The 2000 US census seems to contain data for every town, including small hamlets. Is someone clever enough with databases to do a search of it and find the largest US cities with a majority of white people and no African Americans? I would include in this towns with white people, people self reported "mixed race," Native Americans, Asians, Pacific Islanders, etc. I found some such with over 2,000 population, and 99.8% white, and no reported African Americans. but there are likely to be larger. In "sundown towns" there would not even be black maids living overnight. Edison (talk) 16:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I found the book above and it said Kiryas Joel, New York is the most populous town with 99+% of the town being white. Other towns with a population above 5,000 with 99+% of the town being white are Old Forge, Lackawanna County, Pennsylvania, Longboat Key, Florida, Wolfeboro, New Hampshire, Pana, Illinois, Swoyersville, Pennsylvania, and Monticello, Illinois. Spencer T♦C 22:34, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous witness
How is the defense harmed by allowing testimony by anonymous witnesses? Are measures in place to stop innocent people being convicted? --89.240.243.45 (talk) 16:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * This matter was recently the subject of a ruling by the Law Lords in England; see here. From the report: "The Law Lords said no conviction should be based 'solely or to a decisive extent upon the statements and testimony of anonymous witnesses' - and defendants had the right to confront their accusers.  This had been a principle of English law since the abolition of the medieval star chamber, a secret court, and the infamous trial of Sir Walter Raleigh, said the Lords." --Richardrj talkemail 16:14, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * And to provide an example of "how is the defense harmed", lack of knowledge of the accuser diminishes the opportunity to investigate possible motivates the accuser might have to perjure themselves, and which could be used to cast doubt on their testimony. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

In my experience, anonymous evidence is trash, more often than not. It's no surprise at all that the British police want to be able to rely on it, nor that Harriet Harman has suggested changing the law to enable them to do so. The comment attributed to her, "We must ensure it is not such an ordeal for victims and witnesses that they dare not step forward", is all too typical of New Labour's approach to such matters. In exceptional circumstances, there might be a case for hearing from an anonymous witness, and we shouldn't perhaps rule out the possibility altogether, but we might ask ourselves what the police and Harriet Harman would say to the suggestion that the defence should be allowed to use anonymous evidence. Anyone with any experience of such matters knows that in almost all criminal trials (and in almost all civil litigation, too) someone is lying. Usually, it isn't the police, but they rarely present the whole truth. Give them anonymity for their witnesses, and they would be in clover. Xn4 19:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Christopher Columbus's Fourth voyage
According to the Fourth voyage of the Christopher Columbus article it points out Columbus and his men were stranded on Jamaica in 1503. It goes on to say that Columbus, in a desperate effort to induce the natives to continue provisioning him and his hungry men, successfully intimidated the natives by correctly predicting a lunar eclipse for February 29, 1504, using the Ephemeris of the German astronomer Regiomontanus. However, this website points out that it was the tables of Abraham Zacuto. This article says it was Zacuto's son that was with Columbus that advised Columbus to use the tables in the moment of need. Which is correct? --Doug talk 21:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You'll only be able to get to the bottom of this if there are good contemporary sources. I see our article cites Regiomontanus from Samuel Eliot Morison's Christopher Columbus, Mariner (1955), pp. 184-92. Morison was a respected scholar, and on the face of it he's more likely to be right than a web site devoted to Zacuto, but if I were you I should take a look at Christopher Columbus, Mariner, and see what's there. Xn4  18:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I see your point on a website devoted to Zacuto. I have come across this also from Famous First Facts in their item 2287 on page 109 as they say Columbus had in his possession an almanac, written by the Spanish Jewish astronomer Abraham Zacuto, that contained astronomical tables from which he was able to calculate the time of the eclipse. Yes, Morison is a respected scholar. Your advice is the correct thing to do to follow up on this. Thanks! --Doug talk 21:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

According to M.Hirsch Goldberg's book "The Jewish Connection" (Shapolsky: New York, 1986) p.90: "Columbus used Zacuto's accurate prediction of a moon eclipse to frighten the local populace into supplying critically needed food. Columbus's copy of Zacuto's tables, with notes by the explorer himself, is preserved today in Seville." Some details of Zacuto's life as brought in Hirsch's book: Abraham ben Samuel Zacuto was born in 1450 and died about 1525. He was a Jewish astronomer and Rabbinical scholar who compiled tables used as navigational guides by Columbus, Vasco de Gama and others. He was also a professor af astronomy at the universities of Salamanca and Saragossa and wrote an important work on the stars that was translated into Spanish and Latim. When Spain expelled its Jews, Zacuto travelled to Portugal, where he became the Royal Astronomer. Later he had to flee to Tunis where he wrote a history of the Jews entitled Sefer Hayuchasin. Simonschaim (talk) 19:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your answers on Columbus. --Doug talk 09:42, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Public Domain Poetry
Greetings giant minds! If I find a work of poetry in its entirety in Wikisource or Gutenberg (e.g. The Waste Land) can I assume that the work is in the public domain? What are the restrictions on using works in the public domain? Thank you! Sappysap (talk) 22:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, you can, unless specified. There are no legal restrictions to public domain works, you can basically do whatever to them. I think restrictions may apply for countries outside the US though.  bibliomaniac 1  5  22:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * (ec)Wikisource & Gutenberg both work under US law; what is PD in the US may not be PD in all jurisdications (although in most cases it is). There is nothing, from a copyright perspective, preventing you doing anything you wish with the text.


 * But there are also moral rights attached to the textual works of others, in addition to any question of copyrighted versus public domain. Such rights are not entirely extinguished at death. You should not mistake PD text for text that can be plagiarised and passed off as your own. You should ideally cite its source when using it. There's a current debate on this aspect of the use of PD text at Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism, for the reason that wikipedia policy in this area is being drafted at Plagiarism. If interested, reading those pages might be as good source of opinion. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The Waste Land will not come out of copyright in the EU until 2035, since copyright lasts for 70 years after the death of the author. 80.254.147.52 (talk) 14:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Employment in the USA
What are the highest paid and in demand careers in the U.S.? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.58.144.201 (talk) 23:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Highest paid are executives, CEOs, and politicians (all very lawyer-related). They are not in demand though.  Strippers are in demand and can pay a lot if you work in the proper area. --  k a i n a w &trade; 01:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Politicians? Honestly? The most successful professional sportsmen are also among the highest paid, as are actors and musicians. Doctors and those high-up in the medical profession are well paid, as are judges too —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:27, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * First, nurses are very in demand. Second, 194.221, the original poster asked by careers so I suspect actors/actresses would not be near the top given the huge variance in their income. Another in-demand career involves extremely mathematically inclined people in the financial services industry (so running models for investments like stocks and such).--droptone (talk) 12:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You may find it helpful to poke around the Department of Labor's Occupational Employment Statistics page here, as well as this page. Several Times (talk) 15:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Arabic speakers and translators in general are in demand. Wrad (talk) 17:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

It would help to have some parameters. Would you consider a $100 million bonus to an investment banker or hedge fund manager to be a sufficient answer, or should it only be people with jobs that most of us might aspire to? DOR (HK) (talk) 06:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you like golf, being caddy for leading golfers can be highly paid (see Tiger Woods' caddy, Steve Williams. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)