Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 June 9

= June 9 =

Battle of Toulouse, 1814
Does anyone know when the first news of the Battle of Toulouse reached London? The battle took place on 10 April, and Wellington's dispatches (written on the 12th) are published in the London Gazette on Sat 26 April (the dispatches having arrived the previous day). But was this the first news of the engagement to be printed, or had there been rumours/other news of a battle prior to the offical detailed dispatches arriving? As a comparison, news of the allied army's entry into Paris 30 March reached London on 5 April, and news of Napoleon's 6th April abdication was printed in the Gazette on the 9th April. News of Napoleon's abdication reached Wellington in Toulouse on 12 April. Thanks in advance to anyone able to answer this rather specific request! Gwinva (talk) 02:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You can search the Times online from 1785 (so excited to discover this :) – thanks!) – anyway, probably best you do the search, as you would know better than I which keywords to try, including possible spellings of Toulouse. But I do see a reference on April 22, with possibly another on the 18th. NB: you have to be registered to read more than a few lines. WikiJedits (talk) 13:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that link. I did think of the Times, but I must have started searching from somewhere odd, since I kept getting "subscriber link only" and gave up.  There seem to be several potentially useful articles, and the site indicates I can register for free, at the moment, but I can't get any of the links to work (including the main www.timesonline.co.uk page) so I'll have to try again  tomorrow.  But thanks for that!  It'll be just the thing, if I can only get it to work!!!! Gwinva (talk) 05:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Organic food processing
I am a food manufacturer, making Indian sauces and curry paste. I would like to find out what percentage of food additives e.g citric acid, gum are permitted toin manufacturing organic sauces. e.g if i manufacture garlic paste, add water, what percentage of food acid am i able to add to that. Posted on behalf of Gimme danger (talk) 03:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Where are you wanting to sell your products? Different countries have different rules. ៛ Bielle (talk) 03:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Building the Alaska Highway
I can't find any article which contained information about the US Govt separating African-Americans road builders from the native peoples of Alaska when clearing to build the Alaska Highway. They were afraid that they could "produce hideous children" or something of that nature. I either read about it or saw a documentary on the Discovery Channel. The reason why I ask this, is that I happen to know a girl who is exactly half Aleut and half African-American and she is the most beautiful woman I ever seen. I wanted to reference that fact to her but couldn't find it on the net. --Vincebosma (talk) 14:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * How exactly were you planning to phrase this to her? You certainly seem to mean well, but it might come across as a bit patronising. Also, the mention of her race(s) may be perceived as insulting, or even shallow. Snorgle (talk) 15:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

...because I am an Aleut, too. Please no opinions, I just need to know where I can find this information...--Vincebosma (talk) 15:36, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * This article discusses the role of black troops in building the highway, including regulations banning contact between them and the local population. On page 8 of the article is a quote from a white officer (son of a Confederate general) advocating a ban on such contact for fear that it would produce "an astonishing objectionable race of mongrels".  Marco polo (talk) 17:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Marco Polo, Thanks! --Vincebosma (talk) 17:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Economists vs. Sociologists
What are the principal differences in opinion pr perspective between the practitioners of economy and the specialists of sociology ? 69.157.240.225 (talk) 14:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * In a way economists are just sociologists who use some (questionable) assumptions on human behaviour in their analysis, see Neoclassical economics. User:Krator (t c) 15:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Economics has traditionally viewed the human as a somewhat rational (and at least somewhat well-informed) being who seeks to maximize their utility. These assumptions allowed economists to use advanced mathematics to describe ideal economic behavior. In the later half of the 20th century, many of these assumptions have been challenged (information asymmetry, Behavioral economics).


 * Sociologists are economists, but without the good looks and sense of humor.DOR (HK) (talk) 03:06, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sociology, on the other hand, has been strongly influenced by the dictum attributed to Émile Durkheim that social facts explain social phenomena. In practice, this has led to a more holistic view of the human (as opposed to a quantitative perspective, which economics traditionally adopts). Additionally, sociology was (and is) influenced to a much greater degree by views such as Marxism, Post* (postmodernism, poststructuralism), and various other primarily leftist views.


 * Do keep in mind that these broad outlines do not provide much information about the various non-mainstream views of either field (like say Sociobiology in Sociology, or Marxian economics in economics).--droptone (talk) 11:57, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The name of a cognitive bias effect: more informed people are more aware of the limits of their knowledge.
There is a cognitive bias effect which states that ignorant people will claim that they know more, while more informed people are more willing to admit that they don't know much. I'm trying to find out more about this. I'm sure it has a name, and that I've read an article about it on Wikipedia. However, my searches fail me. Help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.239.247 (talk) 15:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Dunning-Kruger effect. --Sean 15:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Hand-hammered dish


While working in a church archive, my supervisors and I came across the dish pictured to the right (which I'm using to illustrate basic silversmithing) in a set of church dishes; we're guessing that it was used for baptism. It was from a church in Kiowa County, Oklahoma, but the church was maintained as a mission by other churches from throughout the United States. If you look at the bottom, you can see a small inscription: I've given all we know about it; any ideas as to who made it, date, place, etc.? Nyttend backup (talk) 15:44, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * At the top, there's what appears to be a side view of a snare drum, with "T&T" above it
 * Below and to the side of the bottom of the drum are, on each side, small shapes: the right has a "P" in it, and the left is worn enough that no letter is visible
 * Well below the drum are the following numbers (with significant gaps between each one): 7 0 5 — 6 6
 * Finally, just below the numbers are the words HAND HAMMER
 * I only found that "T&T" could stand for "Thropp & Taylor", silversmiths in Birmingham early 19th century, mentioned in some books on old silver listed here. (When I first read T&T in connection with the drum, I thought of steel drums makers from Trinidad & Tobago :) ---Sluzzelin talk  19:46, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Hand-hammered" copperware and silver are a theme of the Arts and Crafts Movement, typified in the US by terms "American Craftsman", or "Craftsman style", spanning roughly the first quarter of the 20th century. Taber & Tibbits, Wallingford, Connecticut, are your manufacturers, if this is your mark. A tabor is a kind of drum. Some of the other figures may refer to a design patent or company design inventory number. --Wetman (talk) 04:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's it! You can see the mark when viewing Nyttend's image full scale. ---Sluzzelin talk  12:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you can see it clearly enough, but the bottom is worn enough that the "E" is missing on the left side, and the "NS" isn't visible at all. It's really nice that we can know what it's supposed to look like :-)  Thanks!  Nyttend (talk) 02:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Black population in Arab World
Which Arab nations have black population due to the history of slavery? I know that Mauritania, Djibouti, Sudan, Egypt and Morocco have black population because I have seen them in history books (e.g. Anwar Al-Sadat of Egypt) and in media (e.g. people in Morocco), but what about Algeria, Tunisia and Libya? Do they have black population? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.22 (talk) 17:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The black population in Mauritania, Djibouti and Sudan is not due to the history of slavery. It is because subsaharan Africa is where (most) black people ultimately come from. Algebraist 22:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Arabian countries don't have a history of Black slavery like America. They treated them like real people. Imagine that. Wrad (talk) 22:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well..... a bit more complicated. Fribbler (talk) 22:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course but the black population isn't there because of slavery. They're there because they've always been there. Wrad (talk) 23:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There has been some migration to Libya by people from south of the Sahara for economic reasons, since Libya, with its oil exports, is more prosperous than countries to its south. I don't know whether there has been much migration to Algeria or Tunisia from the south.  However, all of the countries of North Africa, including Egypt, are after all African countries.  There has been migration back and forth across the Sahara for thousands of years, dating back to a time when the Sahara was not yet a desert and its inhabitants moved both south and north as it dried up.  Some Egyptians may look "black" to Europeans, but most Egyptians simply fall somewhere on the phenotypic spectrum between Europeans and East Africans.  Marco polo (talk) 01:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There was plenty of black slavery in Islam, Wrad (and white, and Chinese, etc). They weren't any more enlightened than European slave traders. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * According to Thomas Sowell, the history of slavery in the Western world was different from slavery elsewhere in just one area: many in the Western world came to support abolitionism, an idea unique to the West. According to Sowell, "what destroyed slavery in the non-Western world was Western imperialism", although this may be overly optimistic, given that the battle against slavery in the non-Western world has not yet been won. —Kevin Myers 05:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think anywhere approached the level of dedication to and efficiency of and size of the Western world's slavery programmes Nil Einne (talk) 12:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

No, no I mean UAE and Saudi Arabia have black population, would you mind explaining that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.128.27 (talk) 02:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Saudi Arabia outlawed chattel slavery in 1962, the UAE ("Trucial States" at the time) followed under British pressure in 1963. Apparently, 10,000 slaves were freed at the time in Saudi Arabia . Many were Sub-Saharan or East African. ---Sluzzelin talk  11:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

European facial appearances
What are the natural hair colours and eye colours among the Russian people? both men and women. what about Italians, Frenchs, Spaniards, Portugueses, Germans, Dutches and Greeks? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.22 (talk) 17:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I haven't been to Russia, Greece or Portugal, but all the other countries have all the hair colours and eye colours known to human kind. They are all, after all, open to immigration. I've known blue-eyed Italians, green-eyed Russians, blonde Spaniards and black-haired, brown-eyed Dutch. In general, the further north one goes in Europe the greater the preponderance of fair skin and light eyes, until you get to the arctic peoples who are also, possibly Russian, for example, and their skins tend to the copper in colour with dark eyes. Perhaps, if you would tell us where you are going with this, we might be of more assistance. ៛ Bielle (talk) 18:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The article on eye color has a "Light Eyes Map" of Europe, and the article on human hair color features a "Light hair coloration map" of Europe. Bielle is right of course, and no map will tell you the "natural" hair colors of the countries you mentioned, but you can see a snapshot of the statistical spread across Europe at the time the data were collected (quite a while ago in Carleton S. Coon's case, a bit more recent in Peter Frost's collection). ---Sluzzelin talk  18:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Note, of course, that these are averages. Maps of this sort make areas look far more homogenous than they actually are, and hide their sampling locations and sample sizes by generalizing all of the areas (some of which are barely inhabited). Just be warned that they can be pretty misleading if you are not careful in interpreting them! --98.217.8.46 (talk) 04:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Arab Sunni School of Thoughts
Which Arab nations in the Middle East (excluding Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt) follow Hanbali, Hanafi and Maliki? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.22 (talk) 17:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The Hanbali, Hanafi, and Maliki articles will tell you. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Pashtun provinces and districts
I know that out of 34, 11 provinces are pashtun, but what is the total number of districts together? I still think that it is 125 districts together in 11 provinces. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.22 (talk) 18:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Provinces and districts of where? -- SGBailey (talk) 22:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Afghanistan, I believe. Algebraist 22:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Since Afghanistan has the right no. of provinces (and Pakistan doesn't), to partially answer your question, Provinces of Afghanistan has a nice table of provinces, their (official?) languages, and the no. of districts. Nine list Pashto only, for a total of 107 districts. I have no idea which other two provinces are considered Pashtun. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Or Pakistan.--Goon Noot (talk) 23:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Population of Detroit
In the 2000 census, the population of Detroit was determined to be 951,270. The Wikipedia article on Detroit lists the (I'm assuming official) 2006 population estimate, which is 918,849. I distinctly recall an earlier estimate from 2005 that around 886,000 persons lived in the city of Detroit. The article on Detroit used to display this estimate. In fact, I've seen many estimates that were lower than 886,000.

Does this mean that the population of Detroit actually increased between 2005 and 2006 (or for any amount of time in the 2000s), or does it mean that the previous estimates were wrong and Detroit was actually losing residents slower than they had estimated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.1.59 (talk) 18:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The latter. The population was declining, but perhaps not as fast as the Census Bureau had estimated.  The Census Bureau revised its estimate upward in response to challenges by the Detroit city government and local civic groups.  See this article.  Marco polo (talk) 20:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Inflation in Canada
I'm looking for a market-based mid-to-long-term inflation indicator for Canada.

Something like the TIPS spread in the US (the spread between TIPS and regular treasuries of the same maturity)

Are there any CPI-indexed securities in Canada that are liquid enough to provide this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by NByz (talk • contribs) 19:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You can probably use the spread between Real Return Bonds and Canadian Treasuries. Go to this page from the Bank of Canada website. The yields on the RRBs are at the bottom but I couldn't figure out the maturities. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 20:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks Zain.

I found that the Bank of Canada issues inflation-indexed fixed-income securities too, just like the US TIPS.

They are called RRB (real return bonds) and are indexed to the ‘Canada All-Items CPI’.

Quotes can be found at the bottom of this page (click the “real returns” tab), and compared to the “Canada” bonds in the same little box.

The process would be:

1)	Choosing the effective maturity date that you’re interested in (looks like they have 2021, 2026, 2031 and 2036) 2)	Subtracting the Yield to Maturity of the un-indexed bond from the YTM of the indexed bond (I assumed they would have the same ‘credit rating’ or default risk etc.)

It looks like this particular page doesn’t have a regular Canada bonds for 2026, 31, 36 etc. So in this example I used the closest years, aways within 2 (which is fine, because anyone who can predict the difference between what’s going to happen in 2029 and 2031 deserves a nobel prize in something)

So the results are:

Year	Implied Inflation (annually) 2021	2.51 2026	2.52 2031	2.58 2036	2.55

NByz (talk) 20:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't you mean: subtract the YTM of the indexed from the YTM of the un-indexed? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 20:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep, thanks! 24.68.228.182 (talk) 21:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Theme of novels
I have about one year sometime in August to do a dissertation on three novels with a similar theme. I'd quite like to do something about the theme of violence in North American society. So I have American Psycho, but am rather unsure about other novels. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks, 86.154.193.187 (talk) 20:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Blood Meridian. Fight Club. --D. Monack | talk 00:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Last Exit To Brooklynhotclaws 14:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Apt Pupil might be interesting to you if you want to examine the inspiration and attraction to violent behaviour. Matt Deres (talk) 17:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)