Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 March 20

= March 20 =

H Donald-Frith H Donald Smith, portrait painter
Was there a portrait painter with a name like this? - Kittybrewster  &#9742;  00:46, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * There was a William Powell Frith, an English portraitist. Is that useful? ៛ Bielle (talk) 02:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Not the chap I am looking for. I think I am looking for H Donald Smith and would appreciate it if someone would create an article. - Kittybrewster   &#9742;  00:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Homelessness
I live in an area (40 by 40 blocks) where homelessness is rampant. Area businesses have learned to cope somewhat with people begging for money outside of their establishments. The area was originally developed to provide low cost housing for State university students but for the most part now has been turned into section 8 (low cost government funded) housing. The crux of the problem is drug and alcohol abuse for the hard core homeless and a mental inability or unwillingness to work to earn money for rent, food or clothing on the part of most of the remainder. I'm looking for a private or public agency or project or some other way to address all parts of this socio-economic problem. My thoughts are that some form of mental disability award could be made, but there are many critics to this solution who do not live in or near an area with this problem or stand any chance of ever having this problem themselves. These people need a life jacket or lifeboat and I have no idea where to turn. 71.100.10.177 (talk) 09:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * If you're in Alberta, I suggest you contact your MLA. (Since you didn't say where you live, I have to assume you live where I do. Everyone does, don't they?) --NellieBly (talk) 03:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Edit conflict: Thanks, no sorry, not Alberta, Canada. I live in the USA, in the State of Florida, in the County of Hillsborough. The City just South of the area in question is not as tolerant (if that is the correct word) of the Homeless as the County, hence one of the reasons that a large population of homeless exists just over the City line in the County. What most people do not really understand including the Deputies who patrol the area that while they are required to pay rent just as I most of these people are unable although it may appear they are only unwilling. It would probably take a psychologist or psychiatrist to comprehend the effect and power of the metal block that stands in the way which can only be removed after the person has be rescued. Its kind of like being overboard with two broken legs and being chastised for not helping to power the ocean liner by kicking when what is needed is a lifeboat and splints until the legs are healed rather than the requirement or demand to start kicking. Surely there must be a world wide homeless organization that knows and understands this and can offer some clear direction. Going to the County Commissioners is a good idea but not without a plan. I need an organization which in fact has a plan. 71.100.10.177 (talk) 09:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * No, Section 8 is a US program. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Behind The Choir of Hard Knocks was the recognition of lack of quality of life at this level – something that makes people want to get up in the morning. I googled "homelessness solutions USA" and there are discussions but there might be avenues of funding. Thing about the Choir is it raised people's regard for the participants – and while it began in one city, it caught on in another. I forget where (maybe UK?) that someone implemented a scheme that fostered "responsibility" (or a response at least) by getting people involved in organising something to do with their housing development. It just gave some dynamic to thinking as well as living at that level. Myabe you could get in touch with people who are active in this way. Have you seen our article Street newspapers? There's also The Big Issue as an example of this. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately the homeless are rarely screened for entertainment talent but that is a very good idea. Theater might become an avenue for the homeless. I can think of any number of plays that reiterate the plight of the down and out. Who better to play the parts? A very good idea.
 * Fostering "responsibility" seems to reflect a common misunderstanding. These people are very responsible. The problem is that they do not want to waste it. They do not want to be responsible for getting a job done, for instance, on behalf of someone else that drains them of even the will to live while making the other person far better off in comparison in exchange for a meal and a place to stay the night. They are people who have been robbed and who do not want to let themselves be robbed again.
 * In America in places where buildings have been all but abandoned and the homeless have asserted squatter's rights, in some cases the government has supported their claims especially through adverse possession laws and an occupancy of longer than 7 years. In the area under discussion, however, many homeless wander the area looking for toilet facilities and have taken up residence across from the County bus terminal on the sidewalk so they can use the facilities as soon as they are open. Public toilets, aside from this, are non-existent in America by design forcing the homeless to search out private facilities. One of the most cherished jobs for the homeless is the job of being the first to arrive in the morning and to clean the bathrooms and police the property for trash before the fast food restaurant opens. The job can lead to things like working the grill when the restaurant opens. Many homeless have personality problems as mental disabilities so such jobs may not last long. 71.100.10.177 (talk) 09:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Would you mind signing with four of these things ~? It's hard to know which non-signer is speaking. Cheers, Julia Rossi (talk) 09:39, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Auto signing should be standard and manual override the exception as well as stable sidebar frames. etc. 71.100.10.177 (talk) 09:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

If I understand you right, you're looking for ideas? You're looking for stories of programs (anywhere in the world) that have had success in helping the homeless? Here are the ones I found:

Shared Learnings on Homelessness resource website

Care 2 message board discussion: Preventing Homelessness

5days.ca student awareness campaign

Seattle's FareStart job training program for the homeless

WGBH TV program on successful programs in Massachussetts

newspaper article on Philadelphia's phenomenal success helping the homeless

In addition, you might be interested in Do Something, a website that helps people channel a general desire to help into manageable, concrete actions. WikiJedits (talk) 14:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Correct. County Social Services has a Homeless Recovery Unit. They do not, unfortunately have a Homeless Rescue Unit. One gets the feeling County Services exist to recover the dead rather than than to rescue the living. Anyway I forwarded the information you have graciously provided to both the HRU by phone and to the Social Services director by email. The ball is now in their court, but in absence of any positive response I will look at each link myself and see what I might present to the County Commission. The non alcoholic or drug abuser homeless are more than willing to accept a fast food restaurant gift certificate. County Services at the urging of the County Commission might be able to provide them with food vouchers if the existing Catch-22 can be dropped. Currently residency must be proven to qualify for help from the County and proof of address is not possible for the homeless. 71.100.10.177 (talk) 03:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Yesterday I watched on DVD the 1936 film My Man Godfrey which has a theme of homelesness in the US - "the Forgotten Men" - so things havnt changed much. In Britain a magazine called The Big Issue is sold by homeless people on the street, as a way of getting them back into regular employment. I think the founder tried to start the same thing in the US, but as far as I recall it was not a success. I believe that here in the UK local governments have a legal responsibility to house the homeless, and there are also temporary Salvation Army hostels and night shelters for the homeless. They are probably first in line for council housing which is effectively free housing if you have no income. I would like to think that nobody in the UK who does not want to be homeless has to be (leaving just the insane and the addicted homeless) but I'm not certain if that is true. Recently a formerly very-well paid television journalist Ed Mitchell has been the subject of a tv documentary and numberous newspaper articles. He used to have a luxury house but spent all his money on alcohol and gambling and ended up sleeping rough. Although in my experience begging is a rarity here, I believe the policy by homeless charities is that you should not give them money as they spend it on alcohol or drugs, and the free food given out by some charities in central London, such as the buddists, may be misguided as it also disencourages people to get off the streets. 80.0.102.40 (talk) 11:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

update
Okay, since my original post I have learned that all of the major fast food chains now offer gift cards that you can put money on in the same way as cards used for copy machines. Cards can be traded for booze or drugs but not as easily as cash so handing a homeless person a gift card instead of cash may avoid the dilemma of providing hard core alcoholic or drug abuser more drugs or alcohol.

The other thing I have learned is the best thing property owners and government can do for the homeless is to eliminate places where they can sleep illegally. This means tearing down abandoned buildings and clearing overgrown areas. What this does is force the homeless to seek help from the government so correspondingly the government has to be ready to help. In the case here its a matter of overcoming the Catch-22 that an address is required as a prerequisite for obtaining government help. 71.100.10.177 (talk) 08:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Divorce and women in the Middle Ages
I've been reading the Wife of Bath's tale from Chaucer. Clearly a woman of the world! This got me thinking of the position of independent minded women in the middle ages. The catholic church allowed divorce for non consumation of marriage. Are there any records of women taking action along these lines and, if so, how did the case proceed?Alisoun of Bath (talk) 13:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Not quite what you are looking for, but you still might be interested to read about Eleanor of Aquitaine, who was quite insistent about getting an annulment from her first husband. It was granted in 1152. But it wasn't for nonconsummation; they had two daughters and had been married 15 years. It was for consanguinity (they were distant cousins). (That was a far more common reason for annulment, btw).


 * Another feisty woman was Ingeborg of Denmark – her husband tried to annul their marriage in 1193 citing nonconsummation but she fought back, insisting on her rights. Unfortunately, her husband then locked her up for 14 years.


 * It may be hard to find what you want because nonconsummation seems to have been usually only invoked in cases of child marriage. See page 299 in this book. WikiJedits (talk) 14:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, in the Carolingian church (according to ) valid grounds for divorce were: adultery, servile status, leprosy, lack of consent, impotence, one's partner becoming a monk or a nun. Not failure to produce children, much to Lothair II's annoyance when he tried to divorce Theutberga.  He created this complicated story of incest, sodomy, witchcraft and abortion (he had to explain why he had acknowledged her virginity with a morgengabe and went a little overboard it seems).  She insisted on a trial by ordeal, which her champion won, clearing her name.  That didn't stop Lothair from continuing to try on different grounds for eight years until Theutberga was ready for an end and entered a convent.
 * The Anglo-Saxons were perhaps more equitable than others; under Aethelbert a woman was entitled to half the family's goods if she decided to leave with her children, and a share even if her husband kept them. But it seems Anglo-Saxon kings could dismiss their wives without any church interference.
 * Anyways, our article doesn't mention it, but the Fourth Lateran Council reduced the consanguinity ban from seventh to fourth degree to prevent more situations like Eleanor of Aquitaine's, where the couple sought annulment after years of marriage, claiming their weren't aware of the relation. Was never really a problem for peasants who didn't keep track of family trees.  Bigamy was the more common grounds for divorce it seems. (Doesn't surprise me since you could be considered married simply by saying, "I will have you as my wife," rather than "I will take you as my wife.")
 * So far on how a case proceeded, divorce based on non-consummation meant checking the wife's virginity. Apparently in 15th century England there were provisions for checking the husband's impotence as well (interestingly, my book mentions that in some places this was done by appointing "seven honest women" to test him).   &mdash; Laura Scudder &#9742; 21:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I can give you, Alisoun, some words that might appeal to the Wife of Bath herself! Here they are;

"The...witness exposed her bared breasts and with her hands, warmed at the fire, she held and rubbed John's penis and testicles, embracing and frequently kissing him. And she stirred him up to demonstrate his virility and potency then and there."

"She says the whole time the said penis was scarcely three inches long... remaining without any increase."

Did I make these statements up? No, of course not! They can be found in the records of the Bishops' Court of York for 1433! Clio the Muse (talk) 02:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Medieval marriage, and therefore annulment, was quite different to our modern institution. You might be interested to read this earlier discussion, which was about consanguinity, but I got distracted and talked about marriage and annulment more generally.  Gwinva (talk) 19:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Medieval crime and punishment
I have another question about life in the middle ages, if I may. We think of the period as one of savage violence, both in crime and in punishment. Was crime peceived to be out of control and is that why punishments were so severe?Alisoun of Bath (talk) 13:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm guessing that most medieval punishments were based on the principle of retributive justice rather than rehabilitation. --Bowlhover (talk) 22:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * ...or restitution. &mdash;Tamfang (talk) 19:47, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And there's the also the perspective of the times to consider. They would probably consider our current forms of enlightened punishment, in the main, to be incomprehensibly and stupidly lenient.  --  JackofOz (talk) 21:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the question is somewhat flawed. It was not a period of savage violence; sometimes, in some places throughout the thousand years of medieval history, there was of course savage violence, but is this any different from anywhere else at any other time? Crime was sometimes out of control; sometimes there wasn't much crime at all, the same as now. Punishments were sometimes severe, sometimes not.  I think punishments were surprisingly lenient sometimes!  Actions that would lead to a criminal trial today were often dealt with under common law in the middle ages; assault, for example, was almost always punished by a fine, and the size of the fine depended on the social status of the assaulted and the assaulter. But on the other hand, there could be severe corporal punishment for crimes that would today carry a relatively lenient punishment (repeat offenses, like a third case of robbery, could be punished by chopping off a limb or two). My two favourite medieval laws/punishments, from Jerusalem (with which I am most familiar, although there are parallels in other societies) are that a man can kill his wife and/or her lover if he catches them in bed together, but he is not allowed to kill both of them; and if a man sexually assaults another man's Muslim slave, his testicles will be cut off. These are certainly nothing like any laws we have now!  But as I said, laws and punishments are so varied across time and space that you can't have one set that applies everywhere at the same time. The only constant I can think of is that there were no prisons, which I suppose is because prisons require a stronger central administration and bureaucracy that was usually lacking in the middle ages. The counter-example to that is the Byzantine Empire, which did have prisons. So, I hope this answer has not been too vague or rambling; medieval crime and punishment is a very complex topic, and I could give you pages and pages of more examples, none of which would apply to all of Europe at any one time! Adam Bishop (talk) 01:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * (Hmm, I should clarify that there were universal laws and punishments, namely canon law, which applies to the previous question about marriage, and Roman law, which carried over into the middle ages in the Corpus Iuris Civilis. But still, there was no single law code that would have covered all crimes for, say, someone in Spain in 500 and someone in Poland in 1500.) Adam Bishop (talk) 01:48, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

In considering the kind of issues raised by this question, Alisoun, you might begin with Johan Huizinga's classic study, The Waning of the Middle Ages, where he says that crime was "...a menace to order and society, as well as an insult to divine majesty. Thus it was natural that the late Middle Ages should become the special period of judicial cruelty."

One has to consider punishment in this context, not so much as retribution but as spectacle more than anything else. It should not be assumed, moreover, that this was simply a top-down process, a way of 'educating' the community in the severity of the law. There was also a considerable amount of popular pressure for criminals to receive forms of punishment that were both harsh and terrifying. In 1389 in England Popular pressure persuaded Parliament to petition the king for the limiting of pardons granted for violent crimes.

The Middle Ages were violent for one reason or another. Legitimate and public violence was considered to be the only way of dealing with illegitimate and private violence. There was no prison, so all punishment had to carry some deterrent purpose; either the absolute deterrence of execution, or relative forms of deterrence implied in mutilation of one kind or other, which required the wrongdoer to live forever in the community carrying the stigma of his or her error. In A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous Fourteenth Century, Barbara Tuchman writes;

''The torture and punishments of civil justice customarily cut of hands and ears, racked, burned, flayed, and pulled apart people's bodies. In everyday life, passers-by saw some criminal flogged with a knotted rope or chained upright in an iron collar. They passed corpses hanging on the gibbet and decapitated heads and quartered bodies impaled on stakes on the city walls. ''

Yes, it was terror; but it was also about forms of reassurance: that justice was being served and society protected: the more extreme the crime, the more extreme the punishment. Even 'clemency', when it was exercised, was, if anything, even more barbarous. In England in 1221 one Thomas of Eldersfield was reprieved from hanging at the last moment. In a show of ‘mercy’ he was blinded and castrated instead! Robert Bartlett described the scene that followed, "...the eyes were thrown to the ground and the testicles used as footballs, the local lads kicking them playfully at the girls." It was all part of the salutary spectacle.

It would be wrong to assume, though, that the didactic purpose of punishment ended with the Middle Ages. In Discipline and Punish, Michael Foucault describes the gothic intensity with which Robert-François Damiens was done to death in 1757 for the attempted assassination of Louis XV. It was the apotheosis, it might be said, of execution as public display; of natural and divinely-ordained retribution. Clio the Muse (talk) 02:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * In addition to the books Clio mentioned, you may also be interested in Roman Law in European History by Peter Stein, Medieval Canon Law by James Brundage, and Trial by Fire and Water by the aforementioned Robert Bartlett. There are also numerous editions of actual legal codes that are fun to read, like the Germanic ones edited by Katharine Fischer Drew. I notice there is also a book called "Medieval justice: Cases and laws in France, England, and Germany, 500-1500" by Hunt Janin, which fits this topic and discussion perfectly, but unfortunately I am not familiar with it (Clio? Anyone?). Adam Bishop (talk) 07:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

North and South
Do the themes explored in Elizabeth Gaskell's novel North and South indicate that she was opposed to the political economy of the day?


 * From above: "Do your own homework. The reference desk will not give you answers for your homework, although we will try to help you out if there is a specific part of your homework you do not understand. Make an effort to show that you have tried solving it first." Marskell (talk) 15:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you read it? AllenHansen (talk) 16:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, have you read North and South? If you really want to know what Elizabeth Gaskell's view of political economy I would draw your particular attention to the passage where John Hale, the factory owner, gives Nicholas Higgins a book to correct his 'sad mistakes' about wages.  In this poor benighted Higgins will discover that “wages find their own level, and that the most successful strike can only force them up for a moment, to sink in far greater proportion afterwards, in consequence of that very strike."  Margaret Hales' vision of harmony between capital and labour is essentially that of John Bright, who argued that employers should always follow the road of 'enlightened self-interest' when dealing with their employees.  There is no reason to suppose that Gaskell thought any differently.  Clio the Muse (talk) 01:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been working on the mini series article all day. Such an awesome serial, go rent it!--Yamanbaiia(free hugs!) 18:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Is the Swiss Franc still immune from inflation?
I heard that the Swiss Frank is immune from inflation, but the swiss franc article says The Swiss franc has historically been considered a safe haven currency with virtually zero inflation and a legal requirement that a minimum 40% is backed by gold reserves. [4] However, this link to gold, which dates from the 1920s, was terminated on 1 May 2000 following a referendum regarding the Nazi gold affair with Swiss banks and an amendment to the Swiss Constitution.[5] So...is it still immune from inflation, or is that a relic of the past, over as of 2000?


 * No currency is immune from inflation. Even when a gold standard existed, inflation could and did occur, for example in countries with trade surpluses.  Prices in Switzerland are higher today than they were 30 or 40 years ago.  Switzerland has a lower rate of inflation than most other countries, but it has inflation.  Marco polo (talk) 15:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * when you talk about prices being higher, that could mean in real terms too, though. For example, prices in a small community in America could triple over a one-year period, but that doesn't mean the value of a dollar in real terms is reduced!  So, if I am interested in using Franks as a medium to store value, against inflation that could strike dollar-denominated alternatives, I don't care about prices in Switzerland.....


 * Switzerland is small country with a population of 7.5 Mio.
 * One of the main industries is banking.
 * The country has a system of bank secrecy which would be impossible to maintain in the EU (or almost elsewhere, as far as I know).
 * If the banking system was forced to become transparent, massive amounts of investments would flow out of the country. After that, it would be easily confused with Swaziland.
 * The inflation rate in Switzerland is 0.6%, in Swaziland it is 6%. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 00:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Cockatoo is no doubt right that Switzerland benefits from its unique banking sector. However, bank secrecy is not the country's only asset.  The banking sector has an unusual level of expertise in international finance for a small country that would allow it to retain international clients even without secrecy.  Moreover, Switzerland has a much more developed infrastructure than Swaziland, which makes its real economy (outside the financial sector) much more efficient than that of Swaziland.  Also, Switzerland has an internationally competitive precision instrument manufacturing sector (whose products are not limited to its famous watches), a strong food processing sector, a strong pharmaceutical industry and perhaps Europe's strongest biotech sector, and, due to its scenery and proximity to many other affluent nations, a strong tourism sector.  I don't think that Switzerland is in any danger of resembling Swaziland in our lifetimes.  Marco polo (talk) 01:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I neglected to add that while the Swiss franc has done well against the dollar in recent years, future movements of currencies are very hard to predict. At a certain point, Switzerland's real economy will start to be hurt by the high value of the franc, which makes its exports less affordable.  Its central bankers will then be under pressure to ease interest rates to help cheapen the franc.  Also, the current strength of the franc is a function of foreign investors' risk aversion.  At a certain point, the appetite for risk will return, and therer will be a sell-off and a sharp drop in the relative value of the franc.  So, if you decide to invest in francs, you may need to be nimble.  Marco polo (talk) 01:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

A picture of Wilhelm Liebknecht, Karl Marx and three of their comrades
Once ı saw a picture of Wilhelm Liebknecht, Karl Marx and three of their comrades on wikipedia. I can't find it. Can you provide it? Thanks in advance.
 * This image from commons fits your description, but it doesn't seem to be in use on the English wikipedia. D AVID Š ENEK 18:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The other three comrades are August Bebel, Carl Wilhelm Tölcke (redlink! but there is de:Carl Wilhelm Tölcke), and Ferdinand Lassalle. --Lambiam 19:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It looks like someone took the initiative to create the redlink.  bibliomaniac 1 5  Midway upon life's journey... 22:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It amuses me to read that Lassalle and Marx were 'comrades'! They had enjoyed a reasonably cordial epistolary relationship, though this changed after Marx spent a month in Berlin in 1861 as the guest of Lassalle and the Countess Sophie von Hartzfeld.  It was all far too bourgeois for the great prophet of revolution, and Lassalle himself altogether too vain, self-important and pompous.  In correspondence with Friedrich Engels Marx began to refer to his 'comrade' as 'Lazarus', 'Baron Izzy', or, more distastefully, as 'the Jewish nigger', a comment on his dark complexion.  "It is now quite plain to me," he told Engels, "as the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify, that he is descended from the Negros who accompanied Moses’ flight from Egypt (unless his mother or paternal grandfather interbred with a nigger)."  The heavy-handed humour of the day, one supposes.  Clio the Muse (talk) 01:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

agriculture,writing
There is a link is there not between the introduction of human agriculture (eg seed crops - wheat etc), and the development of writing - or at least written records.

Q. Who have put forward this idea of a link, and who were the first? (to notice the connection)83.100.183.180 (talk) 18:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * As to why this might come about: agriculture means that grain and other crops can be grown beyond immediate needs, with the surplus being stored or traded, and a consequent need to keep records. Some early "writing" systems used little molded clay token to represent a jar of grain or such, eventually followed by impressions of a peice of clay in lieu of molded tokens. Agriculture engendered accounting, by this notion. Of course hunting could have similarly produced a need for record keeping, if pelts were traded. Animal husbandry produced a need to track sheep ownership. Mining and smelting could similarly produce a need for record keeping. Edison (talk) 18:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * (after edit conflict) Agriculture was developed at least 10,000 years ago, but the history of writing does not nearly go back that far. The oldest written forms of symbolic communication ("proto-writing") emerged in the 7th millennium BCE, with true writing (recorded human language) dating from the late 4th millennium BCE. With a gap of several millenia between the two innovations, any causal link can hardly be direct and strong. This is not to say there is no connection at all. Generally speaking, the development of writing can only flourish in a sedentary culture with enough division of labour to sustain a class of scribes, and that kind of culture is only possible when agriculture is sufficiently advanced. This equally applies to other professions, such as blacksmithing or architecture. --Lambiam 18:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, you've given me some extra things to think about - metalworking is especially interesting, I need to explore more any link between transmutation or ore to metal, and the change in human behaviour (to a sedentary lifestyle as mentioned above) have a direct connect eg our muscles become weak but the iron becomes stronger - does correllation imply causation. Thanks again.83.100.183.180 (talk) 20:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Frederick the Great and religious belief
Was he a sceptic or not?


 * That is somewhat hard to answer also for lack of a precise definition of the notion of sceptic. Being a sceptic is not absolute; most people are sceptic about some things (like supporters of creationism are sceptical about evolution theory), and most self-identifying sceptics hold to some tenets (like the power of reason). According to our article on the man, his father was raised a devout Calvinist and feared he was not one of the elect. To avoid the possibility of his heir Frederick having the same fear, the king ordered that he not be taught about predestination. Although he was largely irreligious, Frederick adopted this tenet of Calvinism, despite his father's efforts. This paragraph in the article concludes: It is unknown if the crown prince did this to spite his father, or out of genuine religious belief. Adopting the predestination tenet of Calvinism does not quite jibe with being a wool-died sceptic, so if he was known to be a sceptic, historians would have concluded that he did not do this "out of genuine religious belief".
 * Frederick the Great had a long-lasting friendship and correspondence with Voltaire, who is often considered a sceptic. It appears, however, that Voltaire, although a free-thinker for the period in which he lived and critical of the Catholic Church and in fact all establishment, was likely not an atheist. Apparently, he even had a chapel erected on his estate at Ferney. --Lambiam 20:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Frederick had a somewhat instrumental view of the social and political function of religion. His own personal views are, I think, better described as agnostic, rather than sceptical. He also had a tendency to see elements of good and bad in all religions. It was only atheism that he condemned outright, because it served to undermine the function of religion in securing social solidarity and cohesion. Above all, in Frederick's scheme of things, religion was necessary to secure obedience among the governed. Adherence to strict religious principles was not necessary for a ruler, though, and Frederick feely confesses that his ancestors became Lutherans, not out of any great religious conviction, but in order to acquire church property. They later became Calvinist for the same instrumental reason: to maintain better relations with the Dutch, and thus facilitate the acquisition of Cleves. Of all the eighteenth century rulers Frederick was the most tolerant, extending his protection to all religions and sects, even to the Jesuits. The sole exception to this general policy of toleration was the Jews, whom he condemned as practitioners of usury. Clio the Muse (talk) 00:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I've always thought that Frederick was somewhat suspicious of the Jews extensive ties all over the world. AllenHansen (talk) 18:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Heroes of their time
Is it possible to draw any comparison at all between Lermontov's Pechorin and Goncharov's Oblomov, or are they simply opposite extremes? Yermolov (talk) 20:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * What do you think? Try listing similarities and differences. AllenHansen (talk) 21:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Yermolov, in the very first detailed analysis of Mikhail Lermontov's A Hero of Our Time, Vissarion Belinsky, one of the leading Russian critics of the day, said that figures like Grigory Aleksandrovich Pechorin were inevitable in that period of history, the Russia of Nicholas I-"That is how the hero of our time must be. He will be characterized either by determined inactivity or else by futile activity." He will be characterised, in other words by passive conformity or pointless personal rebellion. If Pechorin represents the one pole-that of futile activity-then the eponymous hero of Ivan Goncharov's Oblomov surely represents the other, in all its passive indolence. They may illustrate opposite extremes; but for all that they are complimentary extremes, distinct symptoms of the Russia of Tsarist absolutism. Clio the Muse (talk) 00:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Case study on Anonymous
Before Anonymous (group) attacked Scientology I could do a google search for Anonymous and get what I want, but now I'm having trouble.

There was a satirical paper I read on the net, and it was an investigation on "Who is Anonymous?" Anonymous is responsible for many great literary works in history, and must have been one great mind! That's how I remember it. I need to find it again. 22:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

In Google, use the "-" operator to disclude any pages containing that word. Eg, "anonymous -scientology" --76.192.189.206 (talk) 14:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

University Applications
One of my acquintences claim that most Universities use computers to process applications, does this apply to a lot of universities, if any at all?


 * I'd be extremely surprised if the vast majority of unis don't use computers to process applications. But I don't know that as a fact.  And I guess it depends on what you mean by "process".  --  JackofOz (talk) 23:49, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry about the identical wording, but a near miss edit conflict with JackofOz.
 * I would be surprised if there is a single tertiary institution which does not use database systems for the entire logistics of their operations.
 * I can´t give you a proper reference, but I have just checked about a dozen universities in the EU and in Australia and all of them seem to have student admin systems (not accessible to random browsers, but clearly there).
 * Out of curiosity, what makes you think this is odd ? Every government agency, every bank, every hospital and virtually every dime store at the next corner uses IT.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * One large public university in the midwestern US used a point system several decades ago for grad school admission. A regression formula assigned points for the GRE score, the undergraduate GPA, the quality of the undergrad school (determined somehow) the quality of the references (scored by a reader), and extra points simply fro being from certain racial minority groups. Extra points were added for publications and assistantships. The number thus calculated screened out the clear rejects. Naturally, offspring of large donors or politically prominent families got special consideration, regardless. The ones who were likely to get admitted got additional screening by a committee to make sure nothing dodgy jumped out, and the marginal ones got extra examination to choose the more promising ones, or to fill particular needs of the faculty. Books in the last five years or so about admission to selective undergrad programs in the U.S. said that the applications all got read, but some were clear rejects (excepting the connected or athletic) based on grades, test scores, and the quality of the high school, and some were clear admits, with the committee spending most time on the marginal cases. It would be irresponsible for a college charging an application fee not to track each application on a computer too follow its process, so as to make sure none were lost and to know how the class was filling up. Human scorers doubtless read the essays. Edison (talk) 00:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It would be more common in larger universities than smaller ones. But you'd be surprised how much is read by a human as well. My wife worked as an admissions officer at a number of universities and she says they read just a ton of applications and essays and really put a lot of thought into it. While I don't think a system of the magnitude of the University of California can do something quite as comparable, these weren't the smallest schools, either. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 01:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * At least the University of Michigan must (have?) use(d?) a point system as this university was sued for its affirmative action program, which assigned extra points for being from a racial minority (compare what Edison wrote), see Gratz v. Bollinger; anyways, the use of points for affirmative action seems to be discontinued (read last paragraph of intro of University of Michigan... another sad example against grassroots democracy). BTW, the point system itself was never challenged in court, and I'd bet that this is what most schools with hundreds and thousands of applicants use.


 * Personally, if a point or grading system is used (and I'm not sure there's a better way to make dozens or sometimes even thousands of applications, read by different readers, comparable), I don't find any odds in having computers do the scoring for obvious calls, such as points awarded for certain test scores (which stink anyways), grades depending on school, etc. I would guess the only reason that many schools don't do this is that it might not pay off programming so many options and exceptions (e.g., the number of international schools, weighted with quality or whatever...). --Ibn Battuta (talk) 14:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible that the OP meant "process applications" in the sense of using OCR software to read them? That might make it a more reasonable question. D aniel  (‽) 17:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Daring medical rescue
Nearly a decade ago, I saw this thing on TV. It was about a medical rescue by Navy SEALs. A man was with his family on a pleasure yacht. He somehow got injured or sick. The affected area was turning gangrenous. Someone radioed for help. The Navy sent their SEALs to rescue the man and his family. Eventually, the man got the medical help he needed. Does anybody know what I may be referring to?72.229.136.18 (talk) 23:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)