Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 March 21

= March 21 =

Economies of the Home Countries
It has often been said that if California would be a country of its own, it would have the fifth economy in the world. How about the four Home Countries? If England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would become independent, how would their economies compare to the economies of existing countries? A ecis Brievenbus 00:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This took some calculation and extrapolation from existing statistics. The most recent statistics on GDP for subunits of the UK seem to be these numbers from 1998.  Unfortunately, the subunits covered here do not correspond directly to the Home Counties as our article defines them.  These numbers include Bedfordshire, Oxfordshire, and Sussex as well as the Home Counties more narrowly defined.  Using this source, I found GDP in sterling for the UK as a whole in 2007.  Then I estimated the 2007 values of GDP for the UK subunits assuming that they were in the same proportion to national GDP as in 1998.  I know that this assumption isn't accurate, as I seem to recall seeing that the Southeast has grown faster than the UK as a whole, while Wales has grown more slowly, but this was the best that I could do to come up with numbers that would allow comparisons to our table of 2007 GDP for countries of the world.  Comparing the UK and its subunits to this list, I found that the UK has the world's 6th largest economy.  England alone would have the 9th largest (between those of Brazil and Russia, both of which have much larger populations).  The Home Counties (including Bedfordshire, Oxfordshire, and Sussex) would have the 33rd largest economy, between those of Belgium and Bangladesh.  Scotland would have the 53rd largest, between Nigeria (with over 100 million people) and Morocco.  Wales would have the 64th, between Belarus and Ethiopia; and Northern Ireland would have the 71st, between Oman and Lithuania.  As I have said, these comparisons probably understate the size of the economy of England and the Home Counties (whose economy is probably really larger than that of Belgium if the three outer counties are included) and overstate the size of the economy of Wales.  Marco polo (talk) 02:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't think he intended to ask about "home counties" (i.e. southeast of England separarate from the rest of England) at all... AnonMoos (talk) 06:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your calculations and work, Marco polo, but I'm afraid my question was about the Home Countries, the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom, not about the Home Counties. Your answer did provide me with a lot of information though. I'm baffled why Scotland, with its massive oil and gas reserves, would only be equivalent to Morocco and Nigeria (with all due respect to those countries, obviously) and why Wales and Northern Ireland would rank so low. If I interpret these figures correctly, this would make the latter two the poorest areas of Europe. A ecis Brievenbus 11:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've lived in Britain all my long life, yet I've never heard of the expression "home countries" before. I think it is a mistake, unless perhaps it is an expression used in say the 19th. century during the days of empire. The Home counties are those counties that border on London. London or South-east England would, if taken sperately, have a large GDP greater than many countries. 80.2.192.179 (talk) 13:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita is more relevant than overall GDP, or alternatively limit the GDP comparisons to countries of similar size and in the same region. For Scotland that would mean Denmark, Finland, Ireland and Norway. The statistics place Scotland last among the five, and a long way behind Norway, but that does not seem unreasonable.
 * The figures shown in Wales and Northern Ireland, on the other hand, seem improbably low, in the same range as the Baltic States or even Poland. I don't believe that these can be at all accurate. As for England, it is such a large part of the United Kingdom that removing Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales would make relatively little different to the GDP or GDP per capita. It might be that England would be one or two places lower on the List of countries by GDP (PPP) than the UK, but it might also creep up the per capita list. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * On a per capita basis, England would show a number slightly higher than the UK as a whole, close to Germany. Wales would have a higher per capita number than the Baltic States or Poland.  The per capita number for Wales would be comparable to that for New Zealand.  Northern Ireland's per capita number would actually be slightly higher than that for New Zealand and a bit below that for the Republic of Ireland.  Marco polo (talk) 16:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * That isn't what the Wales & NI articles say: Wales 19,546 USD; NI 19,603 USD. I don't doubt you're nearer the truth than those are, but if you can find a reference it would be worth fixing those articles. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Paul Scofield and Sir Thomas More
The sad passing of Paul Scofield prompts this question. What exactly does it mean when the title "Sir" is given to someone (for example, Sir Thomas More)? And where exactly does it come from? Also, am I correct to assume it is not a part of the person's legal name ... but, rather, a title no different than Mister or Doctor or Senator or the like? If so, why are these individuals referred to (for example, in Wikipedia articles) as "Sir". That is, why do we always refer to More as Sir Thomas More when we don't necessarily refer to George Bush as President George Bush? Thanks. PS: Rest in Peace, Paul Scofield. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC))


 * "Sir" means the person has been given a knighthood. I think that it is a title and does not form part of the person's name from a legal perspective.  But from a cultural perspective, it may as well be part of their name.  More would have been addressed as "Sir Thomas" (not Sir More, btw), and any references to him that weren't confined to his surname would be as "Sir Thomas More".  Former U.S. presidents are called "President ", but that's more a courtesy title.  --  JackofOz (talk) 00:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * "Sir" also applies in the case of a baronetcy, which can be thought of as an hereditary knighthood, although it's not a knighthood as such. Incumbent U.S. presidents are entitled to be called "President " in formal settings, but we tend to drop the title when talking about them between ourselves or in the media, because it's cumbersome and it's clear who we're talking about.  But we much less often refer to Queen Elizabeth II as simply "Elizabeth".   --  JackofOz (talk) 00:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Interestingly enough, though, the wife of a knight or baronet is Lady rather than paralleling the male styling. &mdash; Laura Scudder &#9742; 01:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

So, how do you know when someone "takes on" the new name ... how do you know when he becomes knighted? For example, let's hypothetically say that Thomas More was knighted on January 1, 2000. So, prior to that date (up until December 31, 1999), he would be simply "Thomas More". And, on January 1, 2000 (and thereafter), he would be correctly known as "Sir Thomas More". How would we know when the correct date (and accompanying name change) occurs? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 08:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC))
 * "Honours Lists" in UK are published by the London Gazette - a UK registered as a newspaper published by Authority and established on 1665. If you want a list please visit this website. Probably this answers your question. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  09:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

And what I am really getting at is this. In the film A Man for All Seasons, is Paul Scofield playing a character / role by the name of Thomas More or of Sir Thomas More? That is, if More was knighted prior to his death, Scofield's character / role is "Sir Thomas More". If More was knighted after his death, Scofield's character / role is only "Thomas More". Am I correct? And how would I know which? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 08:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC))


 * He was knighted in 1521, long before his death. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Posthumous knighthood is currently impossible (as several petitions have discovered) and, as far as I know, always has been. Algebraist 10:48, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You might compare it with the title "Dr" in some ways. Before his doctorate is awarded, John Smith is just John Smith. Afterwards he is Dr John Smith. SaundersW (talk) 13:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, there's been no case of a posthumous knighthood I've ever heard of. There was a bit of a campaign to get George Harrison one such gong, but it went nowhere; his fans simply left their run too late.  The media sometimes erroneously reports a "posthumous knighthood", where a person accepted the honour but died before it was publicly announced.  Sir Henry Cotton is a well-known case.  In such cases, the date of effect is made retrospective to a date no later than the date of their death, whereas every other new knighthood is with effect from the date the Honours List is promulgated.  These awards are always communicated privately first, to see if the person actually wants to accept it, and if they do they have to keep their trap shut in the meantime (if they don't want it, they're supposed to never reveal the award was ever even offered).  Paul Scofield himself declined a knighthood three times.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all of the input. So, in the UK ... the honor is bestowed by the Queen ... to whom? Whoever she sees fit? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC))


 * This article has some useful information. In short, the process varies by the order of knighthood to be conferred. Carom (talk) 05:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * But to answer your specific question, there are certain awards said to be "in the monarch's personal gift", such as the Royal Victorian Order. She can, of her own volition and without consulting anyone at all, decide that Joe Bloggs is a nice man and deserves to become Sir Joseph Bloggs KCVO.  But the ones not in her personal gift are decided by committees, governments and such like, and she more-or-less rubber stamps the awards.  --  JackofOz (talk) 00:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Percentage of scientists
Apporximately what percentage of the world's population is actively involved in scientific research? Also, what percentage of fresh workers commit themselves to scientific research? Thanks ahead. 99.226.39.245 (talk) 00:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, narrowing the question down to something more manageable &mdash; just physics in the US &mdash; I can say that there were roughly 12,000 physics PhDs awarded in 2005 in the US . They spent on average six years getting their degrees, probably doing research about five years out of the six .   Add to that the 54,000 full time faculty with PhDs, which might lump some lecturers in, but we're not bothering to count the private lab researchers anyways so hopefully it'll all even out, and you something like 65k people in physics in the US doing scientific research, or roughly 0.02% of our population.  So I'd guess around 0.1% are in science in general.  Less for the world as a whole.  &mdash; Laura Scudder &#9742; 01:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

What would "THE" original battle of iwo jima flag raising photo be worth?
The first copy of the first picture taken of the original raising of the flag. How much would that go for?NewAtThis (talk) 01:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * However much someone would pay for it. It's the sort of thing that would be auctioned. (And would need to be authenticated, of course.) It doesn't have a pre-set pricetag. A trained appraiser could probably estimate how much it might be worth, but in the end people will pay for it what they will pay for it. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 01:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

well what's the going rate for historical photos like this one...like on ebay or that PBS show?70.1.91.172 (talk) 08:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd be quite surprised if any photo of the same caliber were on that show. We're not just talking about a posed picture of some general that was passed down through family members from generation to generation but one that is known to millions (billions?) of people the world over.  One could even argue that the picture itself made the battle more historically significant, not due to the battle itself, but due to the coverage that it received from the media and the interest of people who wanted to know more about "that photo with the guys raising the flag".  It's sort of akin to asking how much the Mona Lisa would be worth.  Paintings of that much renown aren't sold often enough to gauge a very accurate estimate by the lay person that we most likely have here.  Some expert appraiser who knows that market may be able to put a ball park guess on it but then they know the market and the potential bidders.  Dismas |(talk) 11:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The original negative is in a file at a photo bureau. Countless prints were made from it. How would one be authenticated as the "first" as opposed to the 97th print? The very first print was probably a test print which went in the trash, to be followed by a better exposed print, or perhaps one with different cropping, dodging or burning to improve the appearance. Prints from the original negative might be distinguishable from prints made from a duplicate negative, to avoid wearing out the original. A print with a notation on the back by the photographer would be more desirable, as would be one with a special provenance, such as having been presented to some notable General by the photographer. Edison (talk) 16:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Communication technology and economics
I was thinking about expanding my article on history of communication with information about how it impacted our society. One of the first parts I am thinking about would be how changes in our communication technologies impacted business/economics. Any ideas and in particular referenced works would be highly appreciated.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Update: Elizabeth L. Eisenstein, The Printing Press as an Agent of Change is a good source on printing press, but does not exhaust the subject.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 02:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Theorist/essayist Walter Benjamin had something predictive to say about reproductive technology (ie print) and its effects on society, culture and the value of art objectsThe Work of Art in the Age of Its Technological Reproducibility, and Other Writings on Media, Harvard University Press, ISBN 0-674-02445-1. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I will certainly take a look at that.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Israel and ISM
Are detained ISM volunteers barred from entering Israel again at a future time? --S.dedalus (talk) 06:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Parliaments of the English Protectorate
Did they achieve anything at all and did politics operate in any normal sense during the protectorate of Oliver Cromwell?

Iranian Minority
Which part of Iran, meaning which provinces do minority Sunnis mostly live and which provinces do minority Christians live? Do Iranian Christians follow Roman Catholic or not? If not, which article should I read about which sect of Christianity do they follow?
 * See Islam in Iran and Christianity in Iran. The Sunnis are mostly in various border regions. The christians are mostly members of the Armenian Apostolic Church, who apparently mostly live in New Julfa and Tehran. Algebraist 15:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Arab Christians
Which Arab nations has the significant population of Christians? I believe Lebanon has the most - maybe a third? Everywhere else is 1-5%. --76.192.189.206 (talk) 14:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep. Wrad (talk) 15:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Some sources give the Christian share of the Palestinian Arab population as 6%. Coptic Christians number at least 4 million people, or 6% of the population of Egypt.  The Copts of Egypt are actually the largest Christian minority in the Arab world in numbers, even though they make up a smaller percentage of the total population than do Christians in Lebanon.  Marco polo (talk) 15:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Punjabi-speaking Pakistani scholars
Is there any Pakistani scholars who do tafsir quran and give lectures and speeches in Punjabi?


 * There is Ameer Muhammad Akram Awan. His writings are in Urdu or English, but you will find videos online of him speaking in Punjabi.  There may well be other Punjabi-speaking mufassirun in Pakistan.  Marco polo (talk) 19:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Indian bengalis
Do Indian Muslims in West Bengal and Tripura speak Bengali or not? Because I want to know if there are any Muslim scholars who give lectures in Bengali?
 * Yes, most people (including Muslims) in West Bengal and Tripura speak Bengali, and according to those articles Bengali is (with English) the main language of education. I can't find anything on Bengali lectures; it might be that university education is mainly in English. Algebraist 15:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Fall of the Directory
Would it be true to say that the fall of the Directory owed as much if not more to its own inefficiency and corruption than to the ambition of Napoleon? If so in what way was this inefficiency undermining the French war effort? Is there any way that French government could have been reformed from within without the necessity of military dictatorship? Thank you. 81.129.85.240 (talk) 15:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

current events-British Columbia-Canada
I am looking for the context of the quote made by MLA Dennis Mackay reguarding his statement that some (Aboriginal) people have benefitted from attending residential school.

Proving residency in a State
According to the Real ID Act one must prove a residency to a particular State. What if you were a vagabond and had no 'fixed' State of residency. In other words, what if a person was a fulltimer RVer and never settled in any one place for very long. Then when located in a place there is no utility bills, since it is automatically in the rent of the place where you are staying (since it is just temporary). Many resort places in the Southern United States rent condos to snowbirds for 90 - 180 days and the rent is all inclusive (all utilities included). In this case, there is no utility bills in your name. One can then be in one of these condos temporarly for 5 - 6 months and then be traveling the remainder of the time in a recreational vehicle. Say each winter one stays first in one of these all inclusive condos in Texas, then travels for the summer, then a condo in Florida for the winter, then travels for 6 months, then a condo in Myrtle Beach for the winter, then travels for 6 months, etc. What State does this person have residency in? My understanding is that there is something like a million fulltimer RVers. What about them?--Doug talk 20:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * A person only has to be a resident in a given state long enough to get ID from that state. ID from one state will be accepted in another.  The rental contract (lease) for a person's winter lodgings would probably suffice as proof of residence.  If not, then the phone or cable bill at that place of residence would work.  Often, even a credit card bill can constitute proof of address.  If the person secures winter lodgings on, say, December 1, that person can then go and apply for a state picture ID (e.g. a driver's license) in the first week of December.  If the person stays at that address even through the end of January, he or she will receive his or her ID from that state and can then pack up the RV and move on to another state.  Marco polo (talk) 20:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Is this any different than the residency requirements needed to get a driver's license in the first place, much less keep your vehicle registration up to date? You just need an address of some sort and proof that you receive mail at it, if I recall. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting about the lease agreement. So happens the condo complex I stay at in the South has no lease agreement. Also no Deposit. You just pay the monthly rental fee each month - which includes all utilities, hence no utility bills. Stay there 5 or 6 months a year, then travel in an RV the remaining time, staying at campgrounds, State and National Parks. Mail is "General Delivery" in the city I am at in the winter time. All other mail is by e-mail. Banking is by the internet and through Banks that have multiple Branches in many States. Which would be consider the State of my residency?--Doug talk 20:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Would that be the State that issued your driver's licence or your vehicle reg? Would a signed statutory declaration cover your winter residence? Julia Rossi (talk) 22:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It really seems as if you have gone out of your way to eliminate any proof of residence from your life! I have rented dozens of apartments in my life in 4 different states and 2 different countries, and I have never once lived in one that did not require my signature on some kind of rental agreement.  If you are concerned about establishing residency in some state, then I would find a condo that provides some kind of rental agreement and an address for delivery of mail.  Short of that, I would write your address on your rent check and the following note in the lower left corner of the rent check:  For  rent at the above address.  When you receive the canceled check or its facsimile from your bank, you have your proof of residence.  It really isn't a problem if your state of residence changes every year, but if you need proof of residence, you might choose situations that make it easier for you to establish it.  Marco polo (talk) 00:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I like the check idea. Thanks for the hints and answers. Appreciate it.--Doug talk 14:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Francis Fowke and George Fowke
So, I've just written an article on George Henry Fowke, a senior officer of the Royal Engineers, b. 1864. There was a prominent engineer by the name of Francis Fowke, who died in 1865 aged 42; the DNB just says he had three children who survived infancy but doesn't give details. His wife was born in 1822, so would have been in her early forties in 1864.

"Fowke" is a fairly uncommon surname, and it seems possible to me that one is the son of the other - sons following in father's footsteps and all that - but none of the (albeit sketchy) biographies of GH Fowke that I can find make any mention of his father. Anyone any idea how to follow up this hunch? Shimgray | talk | 22:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * If you are prepared to invest a little money in the search, you could try to locate and track them through the UK Census. SaundersW (talk) 10:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Smoking Law In UK
Obviously it is illegal to purchase smoking products if you are under 18 in the UK. But is this the minimum age to smoke or just to purchase ? What is the minimum smoking age ? How can a minor legally acquire smoking products ?
 * That's the minimum age to buy or sell. I don't believe there is a minimum age to smoke, but I can't find a source. Legally acquiring tobacco as a minor might be difficult, since it is also illegal to buy tobacco for a minor. Doing so illegally is generally very easy, however. Algebraist 22:43, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just as growing marijuana for your own use is okay, so growing tobacco for your own use would, I imagine, be okay for a 16-year-old. (caveant: jurisdiction specific). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Where is okay to grow marijuana for your own use? It is probably quite difficult to discover who is doing it, but I don't know if there is a right to do so. Mr.K. (talk) 14:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know of any jurisdiction where it's legal. It certainly isn't in the UK. Algebraist 14:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)