Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 March 29

= March 29 =

Floating Castles
Does anyone know where that image of a castle floating in the sky on a chunk of earth came from? An example can be found at http://www.geocities.com/yekante/Castle.jpg 70.55.145.239 (talk) 02:10, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe it came from the idiomatic "castle in the air" or "castle in the sky" for lofty plans that will never happen. I don't know who first painted it, couldn't find it among Bruegel's famous painted Netherlandish Proverbs but one famous examples is M. C. Escher's Castle in the Air. Related examples, though without floating islands of rock or earth, are Maxfield Parrish's Air Castles, The Dinky Bird and Dream Castle in the Sky. Speaking of which, see also Laputa and floating island. ---Sluzzelin talk  02:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a (fortified) cloud city in The Birds by Aristophanes, perhaps that is the origin? Adam Bishop (talk) 04:45, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent. See also cloud cuckoo land and cloudcuckooland. ---Sluzzelin talk  06:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * For Sci-Fi examples, see also the article on Floating city (science fiction). Here is a juxtaposition of Flash Gordon 's "Cloud City" and Cloud City in The Empire Strikes Back . ---Sluzzelin talk  09:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * See also Tripura (mythology). --Dr Dima (talk) 14:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * René Magritte also did some - see . --  JackofOz (talk) 22:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * George Bluth Sr. had this idea years ago.--Yamanbaiia(free hugs!) 23:10, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

In considering this I immediately thought of Laputa from Gulliver's Travels, but I see that Sluzzelin has already covered that. Pushing my mind further back-back even further than Aristophanes-it occurs to me that the Babylonian Tale of Ahiqar may have some relevance here. This tells of a flight into the air to build a tower. The Life of Aesop, a later Greek text, takes up this theme. In this Aesop returns from exile to assist Alexander the Great in his desire to build a tower in the sky. He does so by harnessing four boys to four eagles, allowing them to be carried upwards with their bricklayer's equipment. They then start to build a wall in the air.

The Ahiqar story was widely known among the Jewish and Arab communities in the Middle East, and appears again in the work of Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari, the Persian historian and thinker, who describes the assistance of the devs (beneficial spirits) in building a castle in the air. It appears again the Shahnameh, Ferdowsi's great Persian epic.

Having said all that, 70.55, your particular anime-like castle in the sky may very well owe its inspiration to, well, the Castle in the Sky! Clio the Muse (talk) 01:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

war poems
What is a good website that explains the themes, meaning etc of poem such as the soldier by rupert brooke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.65.15 (talk) 02:39, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * 118.90, there is really no substitute for reading the poems yourself. I would have thought that Rupert Brooke's moving verses in The Soldier hardly need further gloss or explanation.


 * If I should die, think only this of me:


 * That there's some corner of a foreign field


 * That is forever England...  Clio the Muse (talk) 00:55, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And, of course, Rupert Brooke did die in 1915, as his ship approached Gallipoli, and is buried on Skyros. His death adds poignancy to the poem. Have a look at the Rupert Brooke Society. BrainyBabe (talk) 19:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think this is a good page 20TH CENTURY POETRY AND WAR. I set the link to already point to a poem and its explanation. If you after reading it need further information on its background topic then look here. Cheers --Stor stark7 Talk 20:00, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values
What is the philosophical value of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values? Is this book studied at academic institutions? Mr.K. (talk) 04:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably somewhere down there with Jonathan Livingston Seagull. Seriously, Pirsig was more mystic than philosopher, and his thinking would probably not be taken all that seriously in academic philosophical circles; it wasn't really academic in nature, and not particularly analytic, and generally outside the programme of academic philosophical research during the years of its popularity.  - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Jonathan Livingston Seagull seems much more the work of an insane mind that Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values. Pirsig was at least an academic philosopher - of halfway one. Do mainstream academic philosophy doesn't integrate/consider/absorb works produced outside academic circles? Mr.K. (talk) 19:10, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Agitprop
What is in reference to? --superioridad (discusión) 08:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The text says "Entente - under the mask of piece [I meant to write 'peace']". The Allies of World War I were called the "Entente Powers" and also after that war, until about 1940, the word Entente was often used for the alliance between France and Britain. The image is from 1920, so it most likely refers to the support by these countries for the White Movement during the Russian Civil War. D AVID Š ENEK 09:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The direct transliteration Антанта - "Entente" - means the Triple Entente. The poster seems to be a reminder that Russia's erstwhile allies, despite pulling out of the civil war and making overtures of peace, are still capitalists at heart and should not be trusted. FiggyBee (talk) 11:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Updated
And the word on the mask: 'МИР' (Mir)? What does this mean? --superioridad (discusión) 23:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Peace. It's an illustration of supposed hypocrisy.  Clio the Muse (talk) 00:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You can also check мир in Wiktionary, our sister project. - Saludos, Ev (talk) 01:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There could also be a play on words involved here. Мир also means "a/the world".  In the pre-revolutionary orthography, the words for "peace" and "world" were spelled slightly differently, but now they're spelled the same, thus introducing a potential for misinterpretation and word play that didn't exist previously.  (The pronunciations have always been the same; the spelling change didn't alter that.) The poster could be a conveying a sense that the world is a pretty ugly place and it has to pretend to be more pleasant (with peace conferences, ententes etc) to be able to live with itself.  Hence the entente referred to is being depicted as window dressing.  If I had a face like that, I'd wear a mask too.  Interesting to reflect on the entire world having a persona, not just individual people having them.  --  JackofOz (talk) 02:01, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Given what David says above, it makes more sense for the word to be meaning "peace" here, though. Note that the word is written on the mask, not the face. --Anonymous, 03:00 UTC, March 30, 2008.


 * True. I was just idly musing on a mellow autumnal Sunday afternoon.  Still, I wonder what the grotesque face was meant to represent.  --  JackofOz (talk) 03:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It depicts the treachery and perfidy of the 'capitalist' powers, hiding behind the mask of peace. The theme is repeated time and again in Soviet propaganda, with the bloated capitalist almost invariably wearing a top hat.  Clio the Muse (talk) 03:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Is he supposed to be Jewish? He looks somewhat like Nazi cartoons of Jews. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, there's no give-away hooked nose. --  JackofOz (talk) 07:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * No, not Jewish; merely a vicious, dehumanised plutocrat! The Nazi Jewish caricatures almost always emphasise the same physical features: a hooked-nose, heavily lidded eyes, a receding chin and thick lips.  There is, however, some later convergence, as you will discover, Adam, if you look at the illustrations here - 11k.  Clio the Muse (talk) 00:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Patrona Halil
can i know any more about Patrona Haili rebellion in Ottoman Empire? what impact had it? Enver M (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 10:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The chief effect of Patrona Halil's uprising, Enver, was to force the Ottoman authorities into ever deeper forms of social conservatism. The uprising was blamed on migrant Albanians, like Patrona Halil himself, so further migration from the western Balkans was severely restricted.  Mahmud I issued decrees aimed at keeping all provincials out of Istanbul, though in practice these proved difficult to enforce.  Clio the Muse (talk) 00:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Law question: title of party
Hi, I'm writing about a criminal case (heard in the Magistrates Court, Melbourne) involving an application to return objects seized by the Victorian Police. The Applicant is self represented and the other party is the Victorian Police (I'm not really sure as it wasn't made explicit during the hearing but it must be) represented by solicitor. My question is what do you address the other party as? Are they the respondent/defendant/prosecutor? Thanks! --Fir0002 11:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Plaintiff brings the case against another party. Defendant or respondent is the accused party. Julia Rossi (talk) 12:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems like this is just a motion to return evidence. In this case the plaintiff is the person that brings the motion (or makes the complaint) and the defendant is the respondant who is opposing the motion. Rfwoolf (talk) 12:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The opposite of an "Applicant" is a "Respondent". If it is an application under a statute, then it would most likely be Applicant-Respondent. If it's a tortious action, then plaintiff-defendant. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Dance in UAE
For the people who come from U.A.E. and had seen this dance: What is the name of this dance, why is it bad to watch and where can you get these videos from, meaning which website? by the way, I am not a Muslim. Here are some videos:[||1], [||2],[||3], and [||4]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Mustafa (talk • contribs) 13:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Why some of you aren't answering my question?

Somalis in Bangladesh
Is it true that there are Somalis living in Bangladesh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Mustafa (talk • contribs) 13:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * As per http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3452.htm "In recent years ... Bangladeshi troops have served or are serving in Sierra Leone, Somalia, ..."
 * Reference http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflict-africa_democracy/article_1519.jsp mentions the particularly friendly terms which were established between Bangladesh UN troops and the warring Somalis.
 * As Bagladesh and Somalia share their religion, the Islam, it may be possible that some Somalis married soldiers or somehow established business connections which permitted an immigration to Bangladesh.
 * On a tangent, the Guardian on http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jan/23/britishidentity.features11 reports that there is a community of a few thousand Somalis around Cardiff in Wales. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Philosophy: career options
If one is interested in philosophy and wants to study it in college, what would one do as a career? One cannot simply be a philosopher nowadays. Is majoring in philosophy alone a wise decision? Are there people out there who hire philosophers to think of something for them? Am i hyperbolizing the term philosophy as it applies to today? Thanks very much, schyler (talk) 14:18, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You are right, being a philosopher is not a career, but, philosophy is a still a valued degree in certain fields such as government, you could lecture, some businesses view the degree in the same way as a Bachelor of Art - and in this way you would be eligible for many positions that simply require a degree. Rfwoolf (talk) 14:25, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Academic philosophy is a perfectly valid career, though there aren't that many jobs available. Algebraist 14:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well there are two paths that I know of. First you could be a professor in the academe or you could use your BA in Philosophy as a background for studying Law. -- Lenticel ( talk ) 14:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You could also become an actress with a record number of Oscars, or a comedian with a Mark Twain Prize for American Humor. ---Sluzzelin talk  14:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * In other languages, Russian and Hebrew, to name but to, philosophy is considered a scientific discipline. The Russian term is nauka, the Hebrew has mada'ei haruach (sciences of the spirit). AllenHansen (talk) 13:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Or another (ludicrously over-rated) award winning comedian. Ooh have we found a connection between philosophy and comedy? - discuss? Willy turner (talk) 22:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a damn shame there aren't professional philosophers. Many health issues could be solved by your GP referring you to your local consultant philosopher. You'd get so involved in discussing being and nothingness that you'd forget all about your paltry medical problems and start to see the world in an entirely different light. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, JackofOz is referring to the WP:RD staff. The services of this institution (which, in dire circumstances, may save your sanity, unless you have lost it already and "work" here) are refundable via NHS / Medicare / whatever you call it
 * In exceptional circumstances it may happen that you leave our surgery with increased symptoms of lunacy. In this case, join our merry circle in the daily group therapy.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 00:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

What's the matter? Never mind. What's to mind? Never matter. Anyway, schyler, my advice to anyone considering a philosophy option would be to go with your interests and instincts. Thinking about thinking is surely no better basis for a fulfilling professional and personal life. It should equip one for almost anything! Clio the Muse (talk) 00:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * 'Anything' here means probably nothing. As a philosopher you can teach other philosopher or you can become a dubious professional in airy fields like success consulting, intercultural consulting or motivational speaker. WikiWiking (talk) 00:41, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * On the contrary; anything here means almost everything. An educated mind is always an asset.  Clio the Muse (talk) 00:46, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say that philosophy 'educates your mind'. At least not more than science does. As a matter of fact, studying philosophy at university is just studying the history of philosophy - a ratter tiny part of the intellectual achievements of humankind. If you really want to educate your mind go for maths and you will learn the basic structure of everything. WikiWiking (talk) 02:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's fine; I'm more than happy to leave you with maths, while I continue in my devotion to that 'ratter' tiny part of the mind! I do not mean to be unkind, WikiWiking, but it is patently obvious that you know next to nothing about academic philosophy. Clio the Muse (talk) 02:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, I have met more than one philosopher and 'appreciated' more than one lecture. I can only confirm what I have said: academic philosophy is in a terrible shape, it resembles in nothing the great achievements of the past, and there is nothing into it that can be respected. The whole field is full of toffee-nosed pretentious charlatans. Professionally you can become a teacher or a clown (success consulting, intercultural consulting or motivational speaker and the like). My best advise: learn something about how the world works. Go for maths if you are interested in abstract thinking and understanding a lot of phenomena. WikiWiking (talk) 03:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I can only speak from personal experience here. The philosophy courses at my university are well-organised and well-conducted.  Clio the Muse (talk) 04:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * First you pretend you know something about what is going on in academic philosophy. Later you disclose that you meant only your university. What about following basic laws of thought? A mathematician would hardly make such mistakes. Modern 'philosophers' are always keen to defend their 'superior' intellectual capacities, but only through drivel and never through example. WikiWiking (talk) 04:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * We really have no more to say to each other. I take your hostility towards philosophy as read, and will leave it at that.  Clio the Muse (talk) 04:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Please, don't decide for me if I have no more to say. If I feel like saying something to you I will do it. WikiWiking (talk) 06:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Colin McGinn gives a portrait of the professional life of an academic philosopher in his autobiographical memoir The Making of a Philosopher. He makes it sound quite cannibalistic, but probably no more so than the upper echelons of any profession. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:33, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * In some professions it is easier to prove that you are right. Mathematicians live from proofs. Engineers from problem-solving. Drivel producers live from prestige and therefore are more inclined to attack other members of the same profession. And that is exactly what makes them despicable. WikiWiking (talk) 10:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

(Un-indent). Let us stop the mud slinging. This is the humanities desk and not the WP:Kindergarten. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Katie Cruel
I've been having a devil of a time finding information about the original sources of this traditional folk song. Probably, the most well known recording of it is by Karen Dalton. Are there alternative titles I should be looking for? - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't trace any sources, but there's an earlier (and surely better) version of the lyrics here. Diddle-ay, oh diddle-i o-day. Xn4  15:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * "'Katie Cruel' originated in New England in colonial times, and has been sung there continuously from the eighteenth century until today. Colonial militiamen used it as a marching song; children sang it as a jingle and speeded the tempo to a skipping pace; for women it was either a lullaby or a lament that captured well the dreaming loneliness and pain of love."
 * Scott, J. A. (1967). The ballad of America: the history of the United States in song and story. New York: Grosset & Dunlap. pp. 50-2. . There's some lyrics, and a snippet of sheet music from: Linscott, E. H. (1962). Folk songs of old New England. . I'll email 'em if you'd like.&mdash;eric 16:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Managed to find the Linscott version, and I should have the Scott book on the way next time I am at the loan desk. Also found a Scottish parallel / likely original. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 18:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Murdered Greek actress Eleni Papadaki, denounced by envious rival?
I recently saw a documentary on Maria Callas, in which one of the interviewees claimed that Callas had to flee Greece at the end of the war to avoid the fate of the celebrated actress Eleni Papadaki, who was murdered in December 1944 by Communists accusing her of having collaborated with the Germans.

When I tried to look her up on Wikipedia, there was no entry for Eleni Papadaki in English or any other language I could read. Searching for her name in Latin script gives only a few hits on Google or Google Books. When I first searched, a few weeks ago, even the Greek Wikipedia did not have an article on her. But her name gets 13,000 Google hits in Greek, so there seems to be material out there. Now, the Greek Wikipedia has an article, as somebody added one since I searched for her last time. (Isn't that a coincidence? The Greek Wikipedia has languished for years with no article on one of the apparently most famous 20th century Greek actresses, and just a couple of weeks after some random foreigner looks in vain for an article about her, somebody writes one...)

Using a Babelfish translation of the Greek Wikipedia article as my starting point, I have made an attempt to write an article on Eleni Papadaki, but it is pretty incomplete. (Bonus piece of trivia: Oscar Wilde transliterated to Greek and then re-transliterated by Babelfish back into English becomes "O'skar Goya'jlnt"?)

As for my actual question: According to the interview in the documentary I mentioned, Papadaki was denounced by a rival actress, envious of her success. A snippet I can see on Google Books from André Gerolymatos, Red Acropolis, Black Terror (from 2004, ISBN 0465027431) indicates that her rival was surnamed Economou Does anyone know more of this particular Greek drama? Who was the rival actress? What happened to her later? (Gerolymatos's book is not easily available to me, or I would look it up there.)

Anyone knowing Greek and familiar with modern Greek theatre or interested in the history of the Greek Civil War should feel encouraged to improve the Papadaki article. Without expert help, I suspect that my modest attempt will make somebody conclude that she is undeserving of the honour of a Wikipedia page and fill the top of the page with little rectangular boxes. Olaus (talk) 14:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

1974 Jazz organist/keyboardist
Can anyone tell me who the keyboardist/hammond organist? that performed on Billy Cobham's '74 record Crosswinds is? Jan Hammer performed with him on the previous album, but I can't figure out if it could be Brian Auger, or someone completely different. Conveniently, his website isn't working properly either, which sucks. Specifically, I'm wondering about the track Heather (YouTube link). Would that be a Hammond, or some other keyboard? I can't really tell. Thanks in advance! freshofftheufo ΓΛĿЌ  16:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure it's George Duke. Can't listen to the YouTube link right now, sorry. ---Sluzzelin talk  16:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I've just checked his homepage and it appears that you're right! Thank you! I wonder what he was playing; doesn't say that he's ever played a hammond organ. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  17:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * ... and I now just checked the beginning of your clip; the intro is played on a Rhodes piano. (Good to see you back at the desks, by the way!) ---Sluzzelin talk  17:33, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I listened to some more. The prominent electric piano sound is a Rhodes for certain. The atmospheric background sounds like it could be an ARP 2600, though that's merely a guess. ---Sluzzelin talk  20:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's definitely it, thank you so much. Such a beautiful, unique sound, I won't forget that. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  04:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Hillary: The Movie
Why no one in the campaign is discussing about this film? Googling does not help much. No wikipedia article on this movie. Thanks, Slmking (talk) 21:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC) Slmking


 * Because it's not very notable? I'm not sure it satisfies Wikipedia's notability requirements for films. It has not been distributed widely, it is not old enough to be historically notable, it hasn't won an award, was not selected for preservation in an archive, and is not taught as a subject at an academic institution. (Maybe someday it will be notable, but at the moment it looks like a—boring—partisan hit piece, which are a dime a dozen in an election year this day and age.) --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 21:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Did Nazis execute old people??
I love reading about the Third Reich and its people. I have read here and on Spanish wikipedia that Nazis executed homosexuals, lesbians, black people, Gypsies, Jews, Communists, physically and mentally handicapped people, etc, etc. But I need to know. Did they execute old people? thanks and kisses from ArGenTina!. 201.254.75.4 (talk) 21:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Not specifically because they were old, no, unless they fell into one of those other categories. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 21:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Murder is, I think, a better word in this context, 201.254, than 'execute'. Yes, they murdered thousands of old people, but only, as Captain Reference Desk says, if they fell under some of the particular headings you have identified. I'm not sure, though, if it is correct to say that they specifically targeted black people as such. The so-called Rhineland Bastards were forcibly sterilized, it is certainly true, though they were not incarcerated or murdered. Other black Germans managed to live through the period in relative peace. Also, I think it would be more exact to say that gays, lesbians and Communists were sent to concentration camps for their 'offences', rather than targeted for murder in the same fashion as the Jews and the Gypsies eventually were. Of course, many died there, but that was not necessarily the chief aim. I hope you will understand that it is important to make these distinctions. Clio the Muse (talk) 00:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Name of song
I saw an old movie about the battle of the Bulge where the German tank commanders sang some kind of marching song. Does anyone know what it is called? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yes, I believe it (talk • contribs) 21:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * According to IMDb trivia and our very own article, it's "Panzerlied". Clarityfiend (talk) 22:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Here it is . It's really quite stirring; so turn up the volume and stamp your feet!  And there is no need to feel guilty if you like it.  There is no mention at all of the Nazis!  I've also managed to find the Battle of the Bulge version, though here all they do is repeat the first verse over and over.  Clio the Muse (talk) 23:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Legal systems
Are there any legal systems anywhere in the World which publish the law in the form of a dichotomous key? 71.100.5.4 (talk) 23:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The federal law of Switzerland is indexed with an hierarchical decimal key. For instance, 6 - finance law, 64 - tax law, 641.41 - beer tax law and so on (http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/index.html). I imagine many countries use a similar system. Sandstein (talk) 01:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the lookup but unfortunately that is not what I mean. What I am looking for is on the order of a flowchart or multiple state truth table in the form of a polychotomous key where the dependent variables are the list of actions defined by law and the independent variables are the conditions by which the actions are defined. 71.100.5.4 (talk) 02:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * No, as far as I know – I'm a Continental European jurist – all contemporary law is written in prose, and not in the sort of formal notation you describe. Law is supposed to be understandable by everybody, after all. Sandstein (talk) 07:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "Law is supposed to be understandable by everybody, after all." My point exactly. Perhaps you have never used what is otherwise known as a troubleshooting chart. Applied to the law they would make your job and everyone else involved with the legal system much easier. Of course, creation of troubleshooting charts might mean your licience to steal would not be able to get away with as much arm twisting. No offence intended —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.0.130 (talk) 09:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Legal texts can be poetic. About 10 years ago, a county judge in Ohio ruled the state's school-funding systems violated the state constitution by not insuring enough money for poor schools. In his decision, the judge included the entirety of the poem "The Road Not Taken." That's what happens when judges are elected. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 07:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * In that vein, see the decision in Fisher v. Lowe. Algebraist 12:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * An apt appellate response to a frivolous law suit which would have failed to reach the court had a troubleshooting chart been used. Say all: There is no liability, since No-Fault grants immunity and there is no jurisdiction. 71.100.5.4 (talk) 12:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see any reason to presume the case wouldn't have reached court were a troubleshooting chart used. Why are you sure that the plantiff and his or her lawyer wasn't already aware that their law suit was without merit and were just hoping they would get lucky? Nil Einne (talk) 18:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The ratio of actual cost to the potential of reward in absence of a new variable not yet included in statutory or case law. Hence, the need to retain the judicial system. Following consideration of a new variable by the court an online troubleshooting chart for case law is very easily updated and ready for the next case. 71.100.5.4 (talk) 17:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)