Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 November 20

= November 20 =

stock movements
Where can I find a source listing the largest stock movements within the last 15 minutes? The reason I ask is because I'm trying to find stocks at the moment where there is the greatest disparity between Yahoo finance quotes (which are 15 minutes delayed) and actual prices. Thanks, --Thegoodearth (talk) 02:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know of a "real time" web site except for those where you are a registered trader. If you have a trading account with a discount broker, for example, you may get "real time" quotes there. ៛ Bielle (talk) 03:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * There are plenty of real-time quotes. For example, Google has real-time quotes for NYSE and NASDAQ (http://www.google.com/help/stock_disclaimer.html). --Thegoodearth (talk) 03:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you planning on cheating on a fantasy stock challenge by any chance? You know a lot of those fantasy challenges delay orders by 15-20 minutes to counter stuff like that.  If you're asking for your own investment, almost any discount brokerage will offer free quotes.  Many will offer NASDAQ level II free with a minimum number of trades per month.NByz (talk) 07:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Things like National Federation of the Blind v. Target Corporation
Anyone know about groups suing for the blind that they can't use things on computers? Like National Federation of the Blind v. Target Corporation. Firstly, people who are blind might not be able to buy much in actual shops because they can't enter pins for debit cards without telling their pin aloud, they can't sign for credit cards, and they can't see paper money so even if it had Braille dots or were different sizes, they'd not be able to detect obvious counterfeit money.

I'm just wondering about this because most websites don't work for blind users. Even so, almost no video games work for blind users, especially first person shooters. So couldn't the National Federation of the Blind sue every video game maker and just go crazy and cause trouble? Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 03:06, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * First off, the dollar bill controversy is a very serious issue (see Federal_Reserve_Note), and one which the federal government is consistently losing on in an ongoing lawsuit, considering that just about every other developed country has taken measures to make it possible for blind people to distinguish between different currency denominations, and that the U.S. Treasury is now constantly fiddling with the different dollar bills to introduce various anti-counterfeiting measures.


 * And with respect to websites, many blind people are kind of tired of website designers who impair simple text-based navigation of their websites in order to rely exclusively on rather pointless (i.e. visually glitzy, but rather empty from the content point of view) Shockwave Flash animations. It's been pointed out many times that it actually takes extra effort to make your website inaccessible to the blind... AnonMoos (talk) 04:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Many sighted people are also rather tired of such website designers. DuncanHill (talk) 14:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I second that. There's nothing more frustrating than using a web site or desktop app where the developers went out of their way to make it less usable.  216.239.234.196 (talk) 15:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I would hope that eventually most people would go to sites which are basic HTML and loaded with content, like Weather Undergound's page: instead of overly complex pages like are found at Weather.com: .  Computer screen reader programs have no problem with these type of basic HTML pages.  Some sites offer the choice of "dancing babies" or basic HTML, but unfortunately, they start with the dancing babies first. StuRat (talk) 21:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * See Reductio ad absurdum... --Jayron32. talk . contribs 04:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The basic premise needs challenging. Blind people have been using paper money for a very long time; there are computer attachments that will read aloud text; and there are quite a lot of us (sighted and otherwise) who don’t need to look at keypads or keyboards to type in numbers. I don’t mean to trivialize the challenges society presents to the blind, but many of the ones listed in the original question don’t seem to be the ones most in need of attention. DOR (HK) (talk) 05:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, the U.S. government currently has no meaningful answer as to how blind people should know that they're getting the correct change in bills back after making a purchase, other than "Depend on the kindness of strangers"... AnonMoos (talk) 11:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe there are portable readers that can give the denomination of bills. After all, this technology has existed for a long time in machines that accept bills.  Once the blind determine the denomination of each bill, they have different techniques to keep track of them, like folding different denominations differently. StuRat (talk) 20:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, the machines which are truly portable do not seem to be very reliable and robust, and using the machines creates a socially awkward situation where a blind person has to hold up the checkout line while waiting for each bill to be verified by the machine. The much more sensible and reliable solution would be to simply add something like the Canadian currency tactile feature to U.S. currency bills, instead of forcing each blind person to carry around a machine and hold up lines... AnonMoos (talk) 01:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * We have a very simple way of helping blind & partially-sighted people tell different denominations apart in the UK. The different denominations are different sizes (and different colours), and one can get a simple ruler with braille markings corresponding to the different notes. It is a shame that American technology isn't quite up to our level yet ;) DuncanHill (talk) 22:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There's also a feelable section of the note that allows differentiation by touch alone. Algebraist 22:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Back to the OPs question. My shallow understanding is that the governing legislation in the US is Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 which I understand says, you cannot discriminate on grounds of disability in a number of specified areas - Employment, Public Services (and public transportation), Public Accommodations (and Commercial Facilities) & Telecommunications. By my reading, video games would fall outside its scope.

Of interest, the UK counterpart, the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, has two components outlawing less favourable treatment for a reason related to a disabled person's disability; and failure to make a "reasonable adjustment" when providing access to goods, facilities, services and premises. Under this legislation, I would guess a videogame maker would argue that it is unreasonable to expect a game of hand-eye coordination to be adapted for the blind. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

places duties on service providers and requires "reasonable adjustments" to be made when providing access to goods, facilities, services and premises.


 * I'd generally think that most of the web would violate blind disability laws due to CAPTCHAs. However, I suppose a blind person could buy the software some people living in China sell that reads the hardest CAPTCHAs 99% of the time as opposed to the 4% success rate of humans on the hardest ones (e.g. Gmail captcha).  As for the other thing, like how Target was sued, I'm surprised auto makers aren't sued because it's rare to find an auto-maker with a website that isn't pure flash.  Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 05:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that the best captcha breakers as used by spam merchants use humans as backup, e.g. by directing it to some human wanting to enter a porn site or a farm of cheap third world workers. Dmcq (talk) 18:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Well quite a number of CAPTCHAs have audio alternatives nowadays. Others request you contact an admin, including wikimedia Special:Captcha/help, although that would still be a bit annoying and is liable to take longer. Indeed the contact an admin thing I've seen since the early day of CAPTCHAs. I do seem to recall one CAPTCHA breaker marketing their service at the blind although I suspect that was more of a cover then anything. Incidentally I've sometimes found it easier just to use the audio CAPTCHAs for Gmail. Alternatively zooming in works well too Nil Einne (talk) 14:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Source for military decoration citations
I'd like to add my father to the list of MC recipients. I have copies of the original documents submitted for the award, but would like to know how these should be referenced.Trekman53 (talk) 06:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * WP doesn't have a list of MC recipients . The Military Cross page only mentions a few highly significant recipients. The "list" is actually a category: a method of sorting existing pages, all of which need to meet general notability requirements.  Consequently, there's nowhere for you to "add" your father.  If he qualifies for a page of his own, then you will need a number of reliable sources to establish his notability.  (Notability (people) suggests that someone is notable if "the person has received a notable award or honour", which seems to qualify your father, although you'll probably want a bit more to back it up.)   Regarding his MC, it would be important to cite an accessible source, rather than his papers which only you have access to. What country is he from? Try the following databases: Australia, NZ, UK, Canada. Or these google books. You also might find someone at WikiProject Orders, Decorations, and Medals who can help.  Gwinva (talk) 07:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Also note WP:MILMOS, which suggests that winning a Military Cross is, by itself, not quite enough to warrant an article on the winner. This is because, for many of these military heroes, winning the award is just about all of the information we would be able to verify about them using reliable sources, which would make for not very good encyclopedia articles. —Kevin Myers 08:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In which case, why not have a "List of MC holders" as a page? -- SGBailey (talk) 11:06, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The MC is a third level award, presented to thousands of British and Commonwealth soldiers; it is comparable to the U.S. Army Distinguished Service Medal. We generally only maintain lists for the highest level awards such as the Medal of Honor (3,446 recipients) or the Victoria Cross (1,353 recipients). --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  20:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Afro-american male crime.
Why is a black male 6 times more likely to enter a correctional facilty than his white counterpart? (US department of Justice)


 * First you need to control for factors that we know contribute to the likelihood of criminal activity like socioeconomic status and geographic location (urban vs. rural). You need to take out all the known confounding variables before you can explain a group difference.--droptone (talk) 13:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Most likely due to a combination of social and cultural factors. Firstly males are more likely to take part in criminal activity than females. Secondly black males are more likely to be in poverty which is linked to crime. Thirdly black males are more likely to be educated to a lower level of standard, which is also linked to crime. They aren't more likely to committ a crime because they a black, it is much more complex than that. The problem here is that white and black are used as synonyms for rich and poor/educated and not educated/stable family and non-stable family etc. etc. In short, i've never been a fan of this kind of statement because it simplifies a complex question (the cause of crime). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I recall some research on the same question in the UK, during the 1980s, purely about interaction with the police and judiciary. It went something like: more likely to be stopped by police, more likely to be arrested after being stopped, more likely to be charged after arrest, more likely to be found guilty at trial, and more likely to be given a custodial sentence after being found guilty. It all adds up, or rather, multiplies. William Avery (talk) 13:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see anything wrong with the question, it simply stated a fact and asked for the reason. Let's look at a specific example of cocaine use.  White defendants are likely to have snorted cocaine, but have a job and family support, so are likely to be sentenced to drug treatment programs with a suspended sentence.  Black defendants are likely to have smoked crack, be unemployed, homeless, without family support, and have committed other crimes to get drug money.  Under those circumstances, hard time is a likely result. StuRat (talk) 20:43, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Poverty, culture, education, families, bias in the justice system. Each of these demonstrably real aspects combine in different ways for the final raw statistical outcome. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In addition to the reasons above, there could also be genetic factor. 67.184.14.87 (talk) 05:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, there certainly is a genetic factor on the male part, in that having a Y chromosome leads to higher testosterone levels which increase aggressiveness and can lead to criminal behavior. I know of no evidence of any genetic factor leading to crime based on race, however. StuRat (talk) 05:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Even if there were, what credible entity would publish it? —Tamfang (talk) 06:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * There are probably some genetic factors relating to crime but there's no evidence that it is clustered around the particular probabilistic prevalence of genes which we call "race" (which is a concept with a rather flimsy genetic definition anyway). There's really very little evidence of genetic factors even relating to crime—things like XYY syndrome would be your best bet but even that has very poor correlation when you get down the numbers of it. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 19:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I knew a black man in the U.S. whose parents both had Ph.D.'s and lived in a northern state. He attended great schools and got a scholarship to college, where he got a Ph.D. and pursued a professional career. He benefitted from then-prevalent racial preference in graduate school admissions, which assumed that "black=disadvantaged," when he was actually priviledged socioeconomically and in educational opportunities in high school and undergraduate study. But if income and education are controlled, there is likely no significant effect of race left in a proper statistical study. Edison (talk) 07:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The obvious solution to all the Affirmative Action controversy is to offer full financial assistance to all university students with need, regardless of race. If everyone who qualifies for college can go, regardless of economic status, that will help out poor blacks, Hispanics, whites, etc., and also help out the nation by increasing the skilled worker base. StuRat (talk) 15:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Your situation would make some sense if everyone in the country went to the same university and all universities were considered equal but they don't and they aren't. Affirmative Action has little to do with financial assistance. In my opinion (and the opinion of many experts) college is far too late to start trying to rectify educational disparities, in any case. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 19:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, Affirmative Action isn't aimed at financial aide, now. I'm saying that it should be.  The single largest barrier to minorities is not being able to afford college.  This is both a barrier when tuition comes due and far earlier, when they do the calculation that "I won't ever be able to pay for college anyway, so why bother studying and getting good grades in school ?".  Nothing is worse for a student's future prospects than a sense of hopelessness.  Thus, my strategy would try to rectify the situation before college, while the current policy does not. StuRat (talk) 23:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I remember reading something from a teacher who explained that the problem is culture. Many black kids don't want to excel at school because they view this as 'acting white'.  I'm not a teacher so I don't know but tf this is true, that's sad because black people are never going to get ahead.  In fact, I was out with a latina the other day who's family didn't associate with her because she was "too uppity, too white". 67.184.14.87 (talk) 21:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * There's a city in Michigan (Kalamazoo, I think), where every child is promised college tuition if they can graduate high school and get accepted into college. School performance increased dramatically, especially among minorities, as an immediate result. StuRat (talk) 23:22, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

guitar versus piano
I have a few questions about standard, 6-string guitars, as opposed to standard pianos.

1. Is a six-string guitar, like a pinao, EXACTLY a standard size, I mean a pianist can sit down and play any old piano, after at most like 5 seconds, though if a concert pianist is preparing for a recital in front of a huge audience, they might practice with the instrument in question the day before, or even for a couple of days (as I understand)... this is EXACTLY at odds with a violinist, who would take a REAL long time to get used to a particular violin. So, which is a guitar? A visiting guitarist played for us informally at my school, and when a string broke, someone saved her some time by handing her his own guitar, which she just continued playing on after I think changing the tuning. Is this normal? Are guitars played by feel, and pretty much feel the same, are interchangeable?

2. Playing by feel: there are many blind pianists, among the most famous pop ones Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles both spring immediately to mind. What about blind guitarists, are there any who receive just as much recognition as these two pianists? If not, why not -- do you really need to look down as you're chaning chords, etc... a lot of rock musicians totally don't look down at all!

Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.27.160.199 (talk) 13:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In regard to question 2, there have been several famous blind guitarists, some of whom are listed in the article on blind musicians - Blind Willie McTell is probably the most famous. Warofdreams talk 14:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * All guitars are pretty different, a steel-string acoustic guitar is much different than a classical guitar for example, and steel-string guitars have lots of variations in neck length and string size and the shape of the soundbox. But the difference is not so great that anyone with a bit of skill, maybe not a beginner, could handle any guitar. There are lots of blind guitarists, check out Category:Blind bluesmen for example. Jeff Healey is one famous rock/jazz guitarist; he just died recently. He had a unique way of playing the guitar on his lap. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * TO answer both questions:
 * Scale length on guitars is not exactly formalized. An electric guitar may, for example, feature scale lengths of anywhere from 22.5 inches, as in the Fender Mustang (officially called a 3/4 scale instrument by Fender; though this length is NOT 3/4ths the size of a "full sized" Fender guitar) up to 25.5 inches on a standard Strat.  The Gibson Les Paul falls right in the middle of this range, at 24.75 inches.  However, it should be noted that these differences do not make guitars non-interchangable.  I can pick up any guitar, as long as it is tuned to standard tuning, (i.e. EADGBe) and play it without really looking at it.  Heck, I was able to play a baritone Ukelele (tuned DGBe) without even trying because the tuning is exactly the same as a Guitar, and that instrument is 1/2 the size of my guitar!  The point is, scale length is non standard, but any competant guitar player can play any guitar tuned to standard tuning without trouble.
 * Stevie Wonder played piano/organ/keyboards in performance, but he was quite an accomplished musician in the studio. Stevie could play quite well on guitar, electric bass, horns, and most notably drums (theat great drum track on Superstition was played by him on the recording).  That he could play the drums so well is even more impressive than EITHER piano or guitar, since he did not have constant contact with the drums while playing!  As to other famous blind guitarists, besides the aforementioned Healy and McTell, Doc Watson and Jose Feliciano come to mind as very accomplished and very well acclaimed blind guitarists.  Watson himself was an inovator on guitar; he is widely credited with developing a style of plectrum play known as "flatpicking" which would form the basis for the pick-based lead guitar work that predominates modern popular music.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  14:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that it's pretty common to be able play any guitar without having to look at the fretboard and "re-size" the spacing between fingers. You may have to adjust your thinking if you normally use a feel for the space between the body of the guitar and a certain place on the fretboard (like the 12th fret) to shoot straight to that fret without looking.  That can be hard on a guitar that you don't know well.  The main thing I always find challenging when playing different electric guitars isn't the fret spacing, it's:


 * 1) The height of the bridge. If you're used to using the palm of your hand to mute notes, a difference in the height of the bridge will feel awkward, and you may not mute cleanly.  Also, I find that I often anchor my pinky when alternate-picking on anything but the high-e string.  A bridge in a different place may reduce your pinky's helpful role as an anchor.


 * 2) Spacing between the strings. Classical guitars often have their strings spaced further apart for example.  This isn't a problem for strumming, but can be awkward for alternate-picking.  (They're great for finger-picking though)


 * 3) Upper-fret access. On some electrics you have to put your hand in an awkward position to get to the frets above say... the 17th.


 * 4) Thickness of the neck. I have gotten quite used to a very rounded 50's style neck.  It feels weird for me to play fast on a skinnier neck. NByz (talk) 17:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

With regard to the main heading, pianos win, because they burn longer and provide more BTU of heat. Edison (talk) 07:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * For blind achievement there's indigenous Australian musician Geoffrey Gurrumul Yunupingu, blind from birth, who plays a right-hand-strung guitar left-handed. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:44, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Twins as heir to a throne
If twins were born as heir to a throne, what would happen? Would they both be monarchs? I have never heard about such a case. Has it ever hapened that twins were born to a throne? That it, twin brothers? Is there any historical case of this? --85.226.45.121 (talk) 14:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sure that the first-born of the twins would succeed to the throne. DuncanHill (talk) 14:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In the twelfth century the count of Meulan had twin sons, Robert and Waleran. They made a special arrangement so that Waleran inherited Meulan and Robert inherited his father's English titles (since Robert the elder was a Norman with possessions in France and England). Similarly, and around the same time, the twin sons of Eustace Grenier, Walter and Gerard, succeeded to his two different possessions of Sidon and Caesarea during the crusades. I don't know of any twins born to a king who only possessed one territory, though. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Prince Fushimi Hiroyasu (not really an heir to the throne) and Prince Faisal of Jordan had twin daughters. Prince Aleksandar Karadjordjevic (of Serbia, not currently a monarchy) has twin sons.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * There is also the legend of the Man in the Iron Mask in 17th century France. One of the allegations on this famous prisoner's identity is that he was a twin brother of Louis XIV who was whisked away shortly after birth to prevent a tricky succession issue. Alexandre Dumas used that legend as the basis for one of the sequels to the Three Musketeers (The Vicomte de Bragelonne. --Xuxl (talk) 15:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * This question was discussed a bit at Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom. It's the one who's born first who becomes the heir, in the British system.  Other countries may have different rules.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * While the OP did say twin brothers, I should point out that if it were fraternal twins and one were female the other male, it doesn't matter which one is older based on current succession law. The same of course for any older daughter when there is a male heir Nil Einne (talk) 01:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, it depends on the country, the OP did not specify to which Monarchy he was refering. Many of the modern monarchies have changed succession law to pass the throne to the first born, irrespective of sex.  For examples, Sweden since 1980, The Netherlands since 1983, Norway since 1990, and Belgium since 1991 all use a strict, sex-neutral primogeniture to determine inheritance of the throne. Denmark has passed the change very recently, but is waiting for approval from Parliament. The remaining European monarchies, those being Britain, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, and Spain, still use some form of male-preference primogeniture.--Jayron32. talk . contribs  03:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC


 * Uh, perhaps I should have made this clearer but I was responding to JackofOz who referred explicility to the British system (hence why I mentioned current succession law). Or more accurately the commonwealth realm succession system since they are all the same at the moment. Since JackofOz didn't address other countries I didn't see much point bringing other countries into it Nil Einne (talk) 10:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems to me the Bourbon family tree has recent twins somewhere, but maybe they were/are not near a throne. A level or two lower, Wikipedia mentions two or three British peerages that have passed from a twin to the other.  —Tamfang (talk) 06:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It sounds like twins inheriting the throne can create quite a(n) heiry situation. StuRat (talk) 01:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * A better pun has already been made in the title of a tongue-in-cheek fantasy novel: Split Heirs. —Tamfang (talk) 07:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Child monarch in modern age
I know about cases in history with children as monarchs. But how would it behandled in Europe in 2008? Would it be accepted with, say, a seven year old as king in Europe today? Are they any rules for how this would be handled in modern times? When did Europe have its last child monarch? Has any democracy had a child monarch? --85.226.45.121 (talk) 14:19, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * See Regent... AnonMoos (talk) 14:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * And for The UK see Regency Acts. DuncanHill (talk) 15:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Simeon II of Bulgaria, who reigned from 1943 to 1946 and acceded to the throne as a 6-year old, is a (relatively) recent case in Europe. He's had an interesting post-royal career as well. --Xuxl (talk) 15:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Witch trials in 19th century Latin America
I have heard somewhere, that they were witch trials in Latin America in the 19th century. Is this true? If so, where and when? And if not, what does the rumor say, and how did it come about?--85.226.45.121 (talk) 14:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure if the dates are what you want but this talks about colonial witch hunts in South America. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, they may not have been what I was looking for, but they were certainly interesting! Thank you. Perhaps someone else have the answer? --85.226.45.121 (talk) 14:57, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Incest, bigamy and homsexuality in L'ancien regime
I would like to know, what the method of execution was for: Incest, bigamy and homosexuality in the l'ancien regime, (that is, France before 1789). If anyone can answer this, or at least recomend a link, I would be gratefull, as I do need this information. Regards--85.226.45.121 (talk) 14:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * One famous case (wasn't formally executed, though): Jean_V_of_Armagnac -- AnonMoos (talk) 14:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, that was interesting! But I would like to know the method of execution, particularly in the 17th and 18th century. Does anyone know? --85.226.45.121 (talk) 15:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * At that time period commoners were usually hung and nobles were beheaded with an axe (which required a skilled executioner). That's why the guillotine was so popular during the French Revolution, it made it possible for even commoners to be beheaded, which, to the French, apparently made the executions acceptable.  An exception existed for religious crimes where more brutal punishments, like burning at the stake, were common.  However, note that commoners were not held to the same moral standards as nobles, and wouldn't be as likely to be charged for those type of crimes.  The attitude would have been "they're just stupid, filthy peasants, you can't expect them to behave like us anymore than you could expect a dog to have morals". StuRat (talk) 20:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Minor quibble. Pictures are hung.  People are hanged.  Gwinva (talk) 22:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe both are correct. I find 23K Google matches on "hung by the neck" and 39K Ghits on "hanged by the neck". StuRat (talk) 23:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for an interesting reply. Would you say that the method of burning would be used for the three acts mentioned above? Would they be seen as religious crimes? Or what method would be used for these particular cases? --85.226.45.121 (talk) 20:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * No, "religious crimes" means anything which challenged the authority of the Church. Of course, if someone actually claimed that God was in favor of incest, bigamy, or homosexuality, then that would indeed be seen as a threat and dealt with severely.  However, if they just committed the acts, that doesn't challenge the authority of the Church.  If a noble were convicted of those acts they would likely be beheaded with an axe.  If a commoner were convicted (which is unlikely, because the authorities didn't concern themselves with the morals of peasants), they would likely have been hung. StuRat (talk) 22:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe in France it was beheading with a sword, not beheading with an axe. Isn't that why Anne Boleyn sent to France for a swordsman, so that her execution wouldn't be botched? - Nunh-huh 23:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In Spain, (and Italy, I believe) homosexuals, bigamists, and people who comitted incest were burned alive at the stake. These acts were considered to be heresy - they were forbidden in the bible, and therefore by christianity. But perhaps it was different in France.--85.226.45.121 (talk) 17:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

From what i have read, homosexual acts were not widely prosecuted and most executions used homosexuality as only one grounds for punishment. Remember that Foucault's argument about homosexuality makes this a difficult retrospective project. How do 1789 concepts of homosexual sex differ from our modern conceptions? That's a hard question, and a vital one to answer before really being able to approach an answer. I would suggest that a good starting place for research, if you have not looked at these already, would be to look at the Napoleon Codes which are considered to have decriminalized homosexuality in France. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taranwandering (talk • contribs) 11:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have read that as well. what I wonder, however, is the method of execution for homsexuals who was executed- even if they are few. And I also wonder about the method of execution for incest and bigamy. Waht does the law books say about punishements for these acts in 17th and 18th century France? Even if people were not often executed for this, there must have been at least a formal rule as to how they were to be executed if they were. Thank you for the answers I have so far!--85.226.45.121 (talk) 13:33, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You may find the following quotes from useful:
 * p. 143-4: "In France, alleged outbreaks of sodomy occasioned the introduction of a law in Orléans about 1280. Li Livres de Jostice et de Plet applied to both males and females, demanding that a man 'who has been proved to be a sodomite must lose his testicles, and if he does it a second time, he must lose his member, and if he does it a third time, he must be burnt.' Women too, were to be mutilated and executed." "In 1261 the Bishop of Amiens asserted that he, not the city's burghers, had the sole right to judge cases of sodomy. A royal decree settled the matter in favor of the civil authorities...[indicating] that judgement of sodomites was in fact passing from ecclesiastical to civil courts." "In 1283 a French civil law code, Coutumes de beauvaisis, declared that those convicted of "sodomiterie" were to forfeit their property and die by burning."
 * p. 214: "In Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, and Geneva from 1450 into the 1700s, nearly sixteen thousand people were tried for sodomy...only about four hundred are known to have been executed."
 * p. 224: "Laws had criminalized sodomy in France and Spain in the early thirteenth centtury, in Italian cities like Florence, Siena, Perugia, and Venice in the fourteenth century, in the Holy Roman Empire in 1532, in England in 1533, in Prussia in 1620, and in Denmark in 1683; in the Netherlands, capital sentences against sodomites were carried out in the late seventeenth century. Most laws against sodomy demanded the death penalty, sometimes for a single infraction; the usual means of execution was burning, or sometimes hanging. "
 * p. 265: "[In France], the Revolutionary Constituent Assembly decriminalized sodomy in 1791. There had been earlier intimations of change; the Parlement of Paris, which had convicted so many in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, executed only a handful of persons for sodomy in the eighteenth, the last in 1783....In 1810, the Napoleonic Code eliminated all penalties for homosexual practice throughout Napoleon's European empire. " - Outerlimits (talk) 20:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I found that very useful, thank you. That answers my question about homosexuals, I am truly greateful! I have the same question for incest and bigamy. Perhpas someone can answers that as well? --85.226.45.121 (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Sub-districts elections
Who are elected by the people in the Bangladesh Sub-Districts(upazila) elections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.103.45 (talk) 16:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Who are 'latinos'
In the US, 'latinos' are only latin-americans or do someone also include French, Spanish, etc.? 80.58.205.37 (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Latino discusses some dictionary definitions, along with references 5 and 6 (from government agencies) that define the term in the way that I think you're looking for. NByz (talk) 18:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

What is the best evidence that some Gitmo prisoners were sold to us the US?
Hi all,

What is the best evidence, if any, that some/many of the prisoners in Guantanamo were sold to us the US for bounties? There are many reports from released detainees, such as and, but is there any evidence besides their reports?

Thanks!

&mdash; Sam 63.138.152.238 (talk) 22:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Us? I wasn't aware that Wikipedia had any prisoners at Guantanamo at all. Algebraist 22:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't be disingenuous. It's perfectly clear from the links provided which country the OP is referring to.  A simple reminder to be country-specific would have sufficed. --Richardrj talkemail 22:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Apologies. Internet-stress levels clearly getting too high; time for break. Algebraist 22:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Hope you don't mind, I suggest us = U.S. (the rest of us are prisoners of the pedia for no bucks at all) Julia Rossi (talk) 23:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * &lt;grumble&gt; I don't call my government "us". &lt;/grumble&gt; Tamfang (talk) 06:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sam, mostly the papers are sourcing claims by the prisoners (and quoting each other) but in this article there ref to a book by historian James Carroll (“House of War”, Houghton Mifflin) and the article's writer has an email for contact – who knows, you might find out more. Cheers, Julia Rossi (talk) 23:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that most of the "evidence" for it that is in the public realm comes from detainee accounts. The US government classifies such things (making it quite hard to get details regarding detainee treatment from sources other than the detainees accounts, but in many other areas they have been corroborated through other sources). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * There have long been press reports that militias were turning over foreigners in Afghanistan, as well as Afghan enemies, to the U.S. for bounties. The BBC in 2002 reported that family members of Gitmo prisoners, like Kalid Al Udah, a Colonel in the Kuwait Air Force, and a self proclaimed friend of America, said his son was captured by bounty hunters and imprisoned at Gitmo. Udah claimed his son was working for a charity on the Afghan-Pakistan border when he was captured by bounty hunters who sold him to the Americans. This is not really a detainee account.Recall that the detainees are locked behind chain link fences and are not generally allowed any contact with the outside world. To prove the man's guilt in a court of law, and to show the limitless captivity ordered by Bush is not something out of Kafka, the captors might produce evidence and witnesses of the son's guilt, to demonstrate in secret to a judge, at the very minimum, that they have more "evidence of his guilt" than a receipt for a bounty paid to the Afghans who turned him over, and the assurance that bounty hunters never make mistakes. CBS News said that the U.S dropped leaflets in Afghanistan "offering $20,000 to Afghans who turned in an alleged terrorist. 'Many of these people were turned over in a bounty hunt, swept up in a bounty hunt, nothing more than that,' says Wilner. 'A lot of there people down here are innocent. They were picked up by mistake.'"(Wilner is a Washington DC attorney). The "best evidence" is locked in safes at the White House, the Justice Department, and Gitmo, and Bush has argued that he is under no obligation to demonstrate to any court, or any tribunal, anywhere, that there is any evidence of guilt of the captives. The quality of the evidence is thus unknown.A longstanding principle of justice in Western civilization is that the captor must prove the guilt of the captive, not that the captive must prove he is innocent, without access to counsel, and without the right to challenge evidence and witnesses against him. Edison talk) 04:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all very much for the replies, they help a lot. Also, apologies for the silly "us" in the original question -- it has since been edited. &mdash; Sam 63.138.152.238 (talk) 15:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)