Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 October 3

= October 3 =

uncommitted ohio voters
I'm watching vice presidential debate on CNN, there is an uncommitted ohio voters graph, how does this work? --92.227.176.143 (talk) 02:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * CNN compiled a group of uncommintted Ohio voters at Ohio State University to watch the debate. As they listen, they have a device that they can move up and down according to their approval or disapproval of that the candidates are saying.  Grsz  X  02:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Personally I wish they had given some of those devices to a bunch of chimpanzees—would probably have been more informative, and more entertaining! --98.217.8.46 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 03:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC).
 * Instead of "approve/disapprove" it could be "eat poo/fling poo"... --Jayron32. talk . contribs 03:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing to do with Ohio, but global health guru Hans Rosling has a stunning presentation in which he says, around the 2-minute mark, "I have shown that Swedish top students know statistically significantly less about the world than the chimpanzees." --- OtherDave (talk) 16:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Hawaii Prepaid Healthcare Act
Out of curiosity, what can people here at the reference desk tell me about the Hawaii Prepaid Healthcare Act? I believe it regulates healthcare insurance in a way not found in anywhere else in the country, and was the basis of a plan to provide universal healthcare under the Clinton Administration. A quick Google search doesn't tell me much, and there's no article about it here on Wikipedia (although I added a mention in the ERISA article ages ago.) I'm asking because I'm thinking about authoring an article for it sometime in the foreseeable future. Musashi1600 (talk) 09:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The first Google hit seems informative. --Sean 14:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Treasury_security
I am searching for foreign currency TIPS, specially in pound and euro. Are foreign governments also issuing securities like these? Mr.K. (talk) 09:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Already found: Inflation-indexed_bond. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.K. (talk • contribs) 10:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Titanic (1997 film)
After the part of the film where the dome collapses and destroys the Grand Staircase, the camera rolls down a first class corridor which is flooding and having its doors torn off. I was wondering what's causing these doors to collapse, have the staterooms on either side of the corridor flooded and the pressure is destroying them. Because as far as I can see, the corridor is only just beginning to flood. Thanks --Thanks, Hadseys 12:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Could it be artistic license to make a more exciting scene? Without watching that exact part of the film it's hard to speculate for sure but...water is an incredibly powerful source, with the force of water rushing against a door that has already had unexpected pressure on it, perhaps that would be enough. I suspect it is artistic license though, not a whole lot of hollywood is grounded in reality, and less so is scientifically sound. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Having watched the scene in question, I'd say you're right, it looks kind of flaky but that's just what film-makers do. --Richardrj talkemail 13:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * So am I right in thinking that the staterooms on the right hand side of the corridor have already flooded and the corridor is now buckling under the oncoming water and from the pressurised water in the staterooms? --Thanks, Hadseys 13:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No there is no reason for the doors to collapse, they should not collapse at all. The authors of the film only wanted to make the film look impressive. I have no idea what would be their explanation of the phenomemon, but it certainly wouldn't make much scientific sense. --Lgriot (talk) 14:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I looks to me like the staterooms were supposed to have been suddenly flooded, breaking down the flimsy doors. Nice of them to wait until the camera rolled by. APL (talk) 04:07, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

So much was wrong with that film .Please do not take any of it as accurate.hotclaws 23:45, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Indigenous patterns throughout Central America
Further to the question about blacks in various countries in South America, it occured to me to ask why the gradation of population in Central America is the way it is. Mexico, while not free of racism, has fused its history into a new race (or people, or ethnic group), the mestiso. Its immediate neighbo(u)r to the south, Guatemala, has a high proportion of indigenous people, and, roughly speaking, as one meanders down the peninsula, it becomes progressively "whiter" (more European or North American), culminating in Costa Rica, the least indigenous country of the region. Why is this? BrainyBabe (talk) 14:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The situation is not so clear cut in Mexico where gradations of race and racism exist across the country. This is one of the issues of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation. Rmhermen (talk) 14:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed, most of the power structure in Mexico is decidedly European. The idea that Mexicans are a uniform race of 50% Europeans and 50% indiginous is a bit of a whitewash (pardon the pun).  Especially in the south, such as the Yucatan and Oaxaca areas, there a lots of fully indiginous peoples which have not assimilated well into Mexican society.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  15:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Chinese in Africa
Again following on from a question about Africans in China, how many Chinese people are there in Africa? Our article on Chinese South Africans suggests 100 000 - 300 000 in that country alone, most of them recent immigrants, as opposed to the descendants of previous waves. This 2007 International Herald Tribune article says the "Xinhua press agency recently estimated there were at least 750,000 Chinese working or living for extended periods on the continent". I am not sure to what extent that is an unbiased source. Does any other national or international body attempt to keep accurate statistics -- ie how reliable is whatever data there is? How quickly is the situation changing -- my impression is, very rapidly, but I might be wrong. What countries have the most Chinese immigrants or long-term workers? Aside from the usual entrepreneurs, managers, engineers, technicians, and shopkeepers, what sort of occupation or function do the immigrants fulfil? BrainyBabe (talk) 14:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I am a Chinese-born American who has recently backpacked from Cairo to Cape. Here are my impressions of the extent of Chinese immigration:


 * Egypt: low Ethiopia: extraordinarily high (thousands of entrepreneurs but also thousands of common laborers who are in construction) Somaliland: low+ I met a Chinese telecom engineer and the locals told me the Chinese government had installed water purification in Hargeisa Kenya: low presence in raw numbers but a Kenyan diplomat said they were a noticeable presence at the trade table Tanzania: High in Dar es Salaam Malawi: Recently Malawi broke it's long standing relationship w/ Taiwan, immigrant numbers look low Mozambique: High in Maputo and other regional centers South Africa: It's a big country so I can't confirm what end of that estimate is more accurate. But it seems minor in terms of influence.  Verdict: 750k seems high Lotsofissues (talk) 00:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Interresting impressions. I am intrigued that the Chinese are bringing in their own labourers. This seems historically anomalous. One thing that Africa has in large measure is raw human power. (oh yeah, and raw materials too.) BrainyBabe (talk) 06:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Pyramid
There are pyramids in Egypt and also in various south american countries, 1, are there any in any other places on earth, and 2, why have these two seperate places build similar structures, is there a connection? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 15:17, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

1. Yes, all around the world. see the article pyramid for checking where. 2. Because it is pretty stable, despite being a high structure. Mr.K. (talk) 15:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * No historian thinks that all these forms are culturally connected by historic contact among peoples or through extra-terrestrial interference. There is an authentic cultural connection between the Egyptian pyramids and the pyramids at Axum, in northern Ethiopia, south of Egypt, however. Thor Heyerdahl built the Ra II to sail it across the Atlantic in an attempt to prove that Egyptians could have sailed to Central America. Such connections form a major part of Mormon mythology.--Wetman (talk) 15:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I wouldn't say NO historian. No credible historian does, but for an entertaining read, check out Graham Hancock's book Fingerprints of the Gods, where he makes an arguement for it. He does lay out a very interesting case, and its a good read. I won't spoil the ending for you, but, while it doesn't have anything to do with psychopathic retangular monoliths that play Richard Strauss music to monkeys, its pretty close. Understand going in that its total bullshit, but its still an interesting case. --Jayron32. talk . contribs 15:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Without wanting to side with Hancock or his ilk, I would say that "I do not see any merit in his argument" does not necessarily mean "His argument is total bullshit". --  JackofOz (talk) 22:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Some of those who subscribe to Pyramidology believe in such connections, and also connections to vaguely similar structures in Southeast Asia. I once read an hysterical book (which was also concerned with UFOs and anti-gravity and stuff) which claimed there was a harmonic relationship between the positions of these supposedly-related vaguely pyramidal structures, and thus claimed some pyramid power travel/communications network existed between these.  Gosh, I wish I could remember that book's name. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 15:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That was someone other than Hancock... His book is a little more grounded in reality, though not much... --Jayron32. talk . contribs 15:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I heard someone on the Art Bell show say that the Giza pyramids were a hyperdimensional weapon used to defeat space aliens, or something. (And also to destroy the planet from which the asteroid belt was formed.) Adam Bishop (talk) 21:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a name used in archeology/anthropology for when the same things (pottery, for eg) develop entirely independently in different cultures around the world (generally because the inventions are the most obvious, simple solutions to particular problems facing these cultures) -- but I can't for the life of remember what the term is. But it is a genuine phenomenom.  Nothing to do with little green men.86.147.162.163 (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * In evolutionary biology, the term is called convergent evolution, where unrelated organisms devlop similar characteristics to fill similar niche's in their environs.  (like Dolphins and fish both having fins).  According to our article on convergent evolution, and I quote "In cultural evolution, convergent evolution is the development of similar cultural adaptations to similar environmental conditions by different peoples with different ancestral cultures." So perhaps the term convergent evolution is appropriate here too... --Jayron32. talk . contribs  16:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Think about it, what's the safest way of building a very stable (yet impressive-looking) structure which rises to a reasonable height, when you don't have concrete or steel, or even any strong mortar? By having the cross-section of each level be smaller than the cross-section of the levels below it. I don't see much of a coincidence or spookily-mysterious resemblance here. And aside from such basic structurally-constrained factors, there really isn't too much specific resemblance in detail between meso-American and Egyptian pyramids -- Meso-American pyramids had steps running up the sides, and religious rituals were conducted at the top, while none of that was true for Egyptian pyramids... AnonMoos (talk) 22:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It would also have been a straight development of the prehistoric earthen mounds, found im many of the ancient cultures (Hill of Tara, kofun, Poverty Point). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Islam fasting and activities
Besides Ramadan, which others months of the Hijri calender do Muslims fast because their Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) used do? During those months such as Rajab and Muharram, what are the prayers and activities do Muslims do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.74.52 (talk) 15:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You know, we have an article on Islam. Also, you may want to read the chapter in your World Religions textbook that came immediately before that homework assignment.  I am certain the answer will be in there.  Good luck on that homework, and please re-read that disclaimer at the top of the page.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  15:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

What is this symbol?
hi, ok it looks like this:

a standard christian cross, with two extra horizontal lines each side of the horizontal line that are curved slightly away from the horizontal line. Anyone know what it is? thanks, --84.69.147.138 (talk) 16:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

This?  Grsz  X  16:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * its that but the bottom horizontal line is that same distance from the middle line as the top one, and the two 'non middle' lines are curved, like brackets '' on their sides, bending out from the middle line..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.147.138 (talk) 16:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Some context of where you saw it may help.  Grsz  X  16:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * There are several on the Cross page. Take a look there to see if you can see what you mean.  Grsz  X  16:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It's the Eastern Orthodox Church cross, which includes the Russian OC but others as well. See Patriarchal cross.  It should be added to the Cross page.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

i have no idea where i saw it, and i cant find it on the internet either. It looks like this (i just did this quickly) (you have to 'edit' to see it :

--o-- -ooo- -ooo- -ooo- -ooo- ---o-ooo-o--- oo---ooo---oo oooo-ooo-oooo --ooooooooooooooooo-- -ooooooooooo- -ooo- ---ooooooooooooooooooooooo--- -ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo- ---ooooooooooooooooooooooo--- -ooo- -ooooooooooo- --ooooooooooooooooo-- oooo-ooo-oooo oo---ooo---oo ---o-ooo-o--- -ooo- -ooo- -ooo- -ooo- -ooo- -ooo- -ooo- -ooo- --o-- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.147.138 (talk) 17:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * There's a Discordian symbol kind of like that, but no Christian symbol (as far as I'm aware). AnonMoos (talk) 18:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Did you bother checking the description for the image? It says it's the "The three-barred cross" of the Russian Orthodox Church. The Church's article says practitioners crossed themselves with three fingers, hence the three-barred cross. Here is anoth example. Here is the Patriarchal cross, which only has two cross bars instead of three. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 18:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * There's no need to be rude. The cross in question isn't the Russian Orthodox cross anyway, it's the one the orignal posters has created for us in text, thus there is no "description for the image" to be checked.  -- LarryMac  | Talk  18:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It's also mildly similar to Image:Triple-Goddess-Waxing-Full-Waning-Symbol.png Nil Einne (talk) 22:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As the image author, I don't really see too much resemblance... Possibly the original poster might mean some form of the Scientology cross, but that has little spikes, not curving lines AnonMoos (talk) 22:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Really? The only difference I see is that one has a round moon the other one highly epitical. The crescents are more or less exactly the same Nil Einne (talk) 07:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The Triple goddess waxing-crescent/full-moon/waning-crescent symbol has a central circle, but no central lines, while the symbol crudely depicted in ASCII above has two central lines at perpendicular angles, but no central circle. (What you call an "elongated ellipse" is pretty much exactly the same as the depiction of a straight line with rounded ends in the perpendicular direction...). AnonMoos (talk) 16:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * P.S. Converted the ASCII text to a graphic using netpbm (which is useful for things like that), so that it can be seen roughly what it looks like using square pixels... AnonMoos (talk) 21:15, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Your drawing is similar to a "zhuk v muravejnike" ("beetle in an anthill" in Russian) symbol in Strugatsky brothers' eponymous novel. I have read Zhuk v Muravejnike about 20 years ago, but if I remember correctly the symbol was based on a kanji, or at least that's how I understood it back then. Anyway, you may want to look or ask on sites devoted to Strugatskie brothers' works. And you may want to read the novel, too. It's really good.--Dr Dima (talk) 01:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Turns out we have an English-language page for the novel, Beetle in the Anthill. Wiki has articles for EVERYTHING :) --Dr Dima (talk) 02:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I would rather think that you are refering to the Berber flag : see fr:Drapeau_berbère. Baronnet (talk) 14:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * One website describes this to be the Tifinagh letter "Z", which is located in the middle stripe of the flag. Of course, there is no straight middle cross bar in this symbol.  --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:07, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, that looks like the MTR logo. :) 118.90.128.113 (talk) 08:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Back issues of Irano-Judaica?
I am trying to find the following article:


 * Daniel D. Leslie, "Persia or Yemen? The Origin of the Kaifeng Jews," in Shaul Shaked, ed., Irano-Judaica: Studies Relating to Jewish Contacts with Persian Culture Throughout the Ages (Jerusalem, 1982), pp. 101-111.

However, I can't seem to find any seller on-line that has back issues of Irano-Judaica for purchase. Does anyone know where I can find it? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Nevermind. I found a couple of places that are selling it on line, however, it ranges between $75 and $350! I just want a single article from it. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 18:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you have a big university library nearby they might have it (Toronto has it but I'm not sure that helps). Adam Bishop (talk) 21:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know where the questioner lives. However,all the past copies of "Irano Judaica" can be found at the Jewish National and University Library at Givat Ram, Jerusalem. There are copies in the Judaica Reading Room and they can also be ordered from the stacks. None of them are for home loan. Simonschaim (talk) 10:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I have just looked for further libraries at which "Irano Judaica" can be found. There is the Library of Congress in Washington D.C. and a number of libraries in Britain - for a list look under COPAC on the internet.Simonschaim (talk) 10:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

If two gay consenting adults have sex in KSA, is it illegal?
Even if it's in privacy?

And another question, if two consenting adults ( a 20 year old heterosexual couple ) have sex there and they're NOT married, is it illegal? Thanks friends. --190.49.105.156 (talk) 18:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia may answer your first question. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure the answer to both is it's illegal Nil Einne (talk) 21:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course, Saudi Arabia has religious courts (see Sharia) for all aspects of the law, and if these gay consenting adults are engaging in homosexual activity then it can be a capital offence, so in Saudi Arabia the ultimate sanction they face is the death penalty. If the two consenting heterosexual adults are not married to each other but are married to other people, then adultery is also potentially a capital offence. If they are not married to anyone, then I believe Islamic law is much more equivocal. I don't pretend to have the complete answer to the last case, but from what little I know of what goes on there it seems unlikely that they would be in the same trouble. Strawless (talk) 23:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Afterthought - prostitution in Saudi Arabia is against the law, too. Strawless (talk) 23:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I was half-expecting that "LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia" would be a totally blank article! I wonder what the Wahhabi muftis there have to say about Mukhannathun, who aren't necessarily homosexuals exactly, but are kind of inter-gender people who have some recognized status within some innterpretations of Islam... AnonMoos (talk) 00:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Given that the OP has chosen to post on the English-language Wikipedia, the situation of foreigners in Saudi may be of relevance. According to our article, there about 5.5 million resident foreigners, out of a total population of 27m; "around 100,000 Westerners in Saudi Arabia, most of whom live in compounds or gated communities." To a certain extent, these are self-policing, e.g. alcohol has been known to occur, and sex too, sometimes in combination, without the police getting involved.  BrainyBabe (talk) 07:11, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Baron George Wrangell
How, if at all, was white-Russian aristo Baron George Wrangell related to the Wrangel family? George was the eyepatch-wearing alcoholic columnist model for C. F. Hathaway Company. (obit) (Mirror Makers mention) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Regrettably, his NYT obituary of June 10, 1969 doesn't mention his father's name, but does state that he was "a nephew of a commander of the Russian White Army and the son of the former Imperial Russian Consul General in Rome". FWIW, he was born 1 Sept 1903 in Russia, came to the U.S. in 1930, was naturalized 20 Apr 1942 in the New York Southern District, and died 7 or 8 June 1969 in New York City's Doctors Hospital. His survivors were his widow, Katherine Bissell Wrangell, his mother Duchess Sasso Ruffo of Caracas, brothers Paul and Basil, both of Los Angeles, and a sister, Mrs. Elizabeth Wrangell Maulmeister of Paris. From this information, I would infer that his mother was Marussia Sasso Ruffo (30 Jul 1879-12 Dec 1971), who married Peter Freiherr von Wrangell (29 Jun 1874-Paris 1951) in St. Petersburg on 30 Oct 1902. - Nunh-huh 22:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. This leads me to think George is likely notable enough for a Wikipedia article (Baron, related to a bunch of other noted folks, super-famous model for 10 years, columnist), but there doesn't seem to be enough verifiable material to make it all stick. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with you - I think probably his iconic Hathaway status would be enough. Most of the info above can be cited to various newspaper articles, but we would need some "reliable source" to expand the article. Plus we would probably never be able to get a photo that would pass "fair use" muster on Wikipedia. - Nunh-huh 23:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)