Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 September 22

= September 22 =

bombing investigations
By chance, will any NYPD officers and Pentagon Force Protection Agency officers be sent to Pakistan to help out in the Islamabad Marriott Hotel bombing investigations? The reason I'm asking is because two United States Department of Defense employees were among the dead.72.229.139.13 (talk) 03:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Pakistan (specifically the ISI) is usually pretty touchy about letting outsiders into their bombing investigations. In any case, why would it be the NYPD and not, say, the FBI? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:02, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

When three franchise hotels in Amman, Jordan were bombed on November 9, 2005, an NYPD officer was stationed there. The NYPD have specialized units for dealing with those types of things. They could help out, with some assistance from the PFPA.72.229.139.13 (talk) 21:05, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Voter registration
A colleague of mine, who is teaching English to German pupils in the last year of a German grammar school/college preparatory high school, recently came up with the question why US voters have to register. (In Germany you would automatically get a notification from local authorities where you are registered as a permanent resident.) I suppose there are historical reasons for this situation in the USA and/or the fact that in the USA you don't have to register at the local government of your place of residence. Is this correct or what are the actual reasons for voter registration and/or the lack of resident registration in the USA? (The article voter registration couldn't give me any further information...) -- 84.160.12.2 (talk) 10:24, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I am an American who lived in Germany for a while in the past, and I remember having to go to the police station to submit my polizeiliche Anmeldung. For me, the experience was a little unnerving, and it felt like a reminder of Germany's authoritarian past under the Communist and/or Nazi governments and the earlier Prussian autocracy.  There is no requirement to register as a resident in the United States, and I think that Americans would strongly oppose what would feel like government surveillance and intrusion into their private lives.  (Of course, this is not entirely rational, since it is fairly easy to find the residence of every American with a credit card—in other words nearly every American adult—through the internet.)  Anyway, since the government has no official record of people's residence, they create registers of voters entitled to vote in a given locale by requiring those who wish to vote to register.   This saves the government the expense of having to locate all of its citizens (without requiring them to register their residence) and ensures that people do not try to vote in more than one place.  (Voter registration forms require registrants to state the place where they were previously registered.)  Marco polo (talk) 14:21, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I'll try not to be offended by the comparison of present-day Germany to past communist/nazi regimes, but I would agree that German bureaucracy is still marked by its Prussian past. (But one shouldn't forget that Bismarck is also responsible for the establishment of social welfare, pension schemes and obligatory health insurance, things Germans like to uphold.) Anyway, you've answered my initial question, thanks. -- 84.160.64.44 (talk) 14:39, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I personally know some people who are "off the grid", meaning that there are no records of them existing. I doubt this would be very easy to pull off in a country such as Germany, but even though there are difficulties doing it here in the US, it is not entirely impossible. It means they do not have a driver's license, no credit cards or any other kind of debt, are not registered to vote, and don't even have a mailbox. Moreover, they are not breaking any laws by living as they do. Of course I live in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, where people such as this are more likely to occur than in other, more "civilized" parts of the US... Saukkomies 23:21, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Doesn't that make things like education and healthcare rather tricky? --Tango (talk) 00:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Education: homeschooling. Healthcare: pay as you go, and don't ask too many questions. I'm not promoting this lifestyle, just saying it's there... Saukkomies 01:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't even homeschooled children in the states need to register for exams in order to get any recognised qualifications? And pay as you go healthcare requires you either don't get very sick, or have a lot of money (which is unlikely with such a lifestyle, I would think). It may be possible for a limited period, but most people trying it are going to find themselves in a real mess sooner or later... --Tango (talk) 15:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The subject of whether children may be homeschooled completely from Kindergarten through High School at home varies from one state to the next. In Michigan, where I live, it is basically wide open - parents may, if they meet some very minimal requirements (none of which really forces them to make themselves go "off the grid") homeschool their kids for the entire duration of their upbringing. This especially seems to be the case if the parents belong to a religion which rejects government intervention in the education of their children - the parents may claim that they are exercising their freedom of religion by homeschooling their kids. To find out more about the various legal aspects as they apply from one state to the next, go to the Home School Legal Defense Association's web page.

The only real problem that many of these "off the grid" people face is when they go to file their taxes, which they try very hard to not have to do. Some of these folks do not even have a Social Security number assigned to them - let alone having ever paid taxes. If a person does not make a certain level of income in a given year, then he or she is not required to file a tax return. And that is the loophole that they use to get out of having to do this - they just make sure they don't make too much money. I know this may seem like science fiction to someone from Britain or Germany, but believe it or not, it is not too difficult to find people like this in the United States. It has to do with one of the basic aspects of the American psyche, which rejects government intervention in their lives on any level. It has a lot to do with the way the country grew during that famous 300 years of the Expanding American Frontier, which probably was the primary factor in shaping American society. Saukkomies 19:14, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Another example is a grandmother and her granddaughter who live off the grid because they are hard core Fundamentalist Christians. The granddaughter is about 16 years old, and neither she nor her grandmother have ever been further than 10 miles from where they live in the woods. They only go shopping at a store that is located in a town of less than 1000 people, even though there's another store closer to where they live, but it is located in a town of about 7500 residents. The reason for this is because the larger town has too many "evil influences" in it, such as a book store, a university, and a daily newspaper. The church they go to had a Bible Camp for the Sunday School teens, but the grandmother wouldn't let her granddaughter go to it, because in order to get there, she would have had to have traveled on the Church bus through this larger town, and the grandmother didn't want her daughter to even do that - it was too much exposure for her to allow her granddaughter to have. She homeschools her granddaughter, and the reason I met them was because they were visiting the neighbors of a friend of mine who lives out in the country, and there was a backyard barbecue going on, and the grandmother and granddaughter came along with the neighbors to share some hamburgers that we were offering to the neighbors, and I got to talk to them. Or rather, I talked mostly to the granddaughter while the grandmother was busy making sure the burgers were grilled thoroughly (she didn't want rare meat). I offer these examples in order to show that there are people here in the US who are just not known about. And, moreover, they are not registered to vote... For them, the idea of national politics is just a far-removed thing that they feel is something they do not want to be bothered with. Saukkomies 18:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, an example of such an "off the grid" person I know. I met him while working at a public library in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, where I live. The first time I met him, I was working at the Reference Desk at the library, and he came up to me to ask if I could get on the Internet (he didn't know how to use a computer) to find and print out the schedule for the Detroit Tigers football games, and what times they would be broadcast over AM radio. He was a Tigers fan, and his only real contact with the outside world was via a battery-operated AM transistor radio. So I found what he was asking for and he was on his way. About three months later, he returned, this time for a schedule of a Chicago Cubs radio-broadcasted games. So I got to talking to him, and found out he lived with his common law wife and possible offspring (he was a bit vague in that regard) out somewhere along the shoreline of Lake Superior. There were no roads anywhere near where he lived. He got into town in the winter via snowmobile, and in the summer by canoe, which he kept hidden along the lakeshore somewhere near his abode out in the woods. When he went by canoe, it took him three days' of paddling to get into town, and another three days to return. So he only made trips into town about every 3 to 6 months. He was very silent about how he made money to buy supplies and food, and since he wasn't forthcoming about this, I didn't ask. That's not a subject you bring up with people like this, just as is asking if they have children... I still see him on occasion when he makes it into town.
 * How interesting, Saukkomies. Thanks for taking the time to expand on this thread.  One of the things I find so fascinating (and addictive) about the ref desk is the insight it sheds on other people around the world.  I live in a city where it is much less easy for people to exist off the radar.  (When performing jury duty, recently, we were told we didn't need to claim for travel expenses: as the jury manager joked "we're the government, so we know where you live".) Of course, it wouldn't be impossible to be unkown, and much easier out in the sticks, but it wouldn't be considered normal.  Gwinva (talk) 21:48, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, it isn't considered "normal" in the US, either. But it may be that an American would be less surprised to meet someone who was "off the grid" than say a Brit encountering a similar person in England. Just a guess, though. Saukkomies 21:14, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, by the way, my guess (and that's all it is) as to what the means of income was for the first example I gave of the man who canooed into town every three months would be that he grew cannabis sativa in the woods for cash... But, like I say, it's only conjecture... But the interesting thing is that these two examples I gave represent two opposite poles of social extreme fringe elements in American society: the "back to nature" pot-growing Hippie, and the Fundamentalist Christian recluse. Both extremes find refuge from society by removing themselves from the "grid". Saukkomies 21:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * To get back to the OP, remember that the U.S. is larger than European countries and characterized by (a) much greater internal migration (people moving from one part of the country to another, and (b) varying requirements for voting in state and local elections. I have lived in five states, some of them more than once, and have moved within some states, so I've registered -- or changed my state registration -- ten times or so.
 * My last move was within the same county. Had I not updated my voter registration, though, I would have had to vote at the prior location.  I would not have been registered in the proper jurisdiction for my current state representatives (state senate, state house), nor for my current congressman.  Note that if this were the case in November, I would still have been able to vote for U.S. senator, governor, and president, since these are state-wide offices. --- OtherDave (talk) 12:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Rendezvous with Destiny by Eric F. Goldman
Can we see an article(s) and series of essays on "Rendezvous with Destiny" by Eric F. Goldman in light what's been happening with Treasury buy out of major Mortgage companies such as FNMA and FHLMC and also infusing hundreds of billions of dollars using Depression era regulation into the money market to calm the fears of the market? I believe it is especially more relevant now that we are faced with a huge role federal government plays in the market. Rapid growth due to industrialization and rapid growth of money due to financial deregulation due to various derivatives such as credit default swaps to mitigate default risks by financial institutions almost seems eerily similar, in that major paradigm shift leads to wild euphoria which seems to result in inevitable crash in financial markets(?). Current search in Wiki only leads to random sources and the speech by Ronald Reagan and archival searches in NYTimes lead to snippets of the book that should be read again. I didn't enjoy the book when it was a required reading back in high school, I would love to read a thorough analysis of the book before I pick up that book again. Jayomega99 (talk) 14:27, 22 September 2008 (UTC)Jayomega99

Identify a (possibly heraldic) symbol
Can anyone identify this symbol. It is on a Scout Scarf, and is likely to represent the town or city that the group is from. I found it in my Scout Hut, and am trying to find out which group it is from. DuncanHill (talk) 15:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not a very clear picture, so I will describe it as well: A green shield with closed book on it. The book is red, and its spine is to the top. Lying on the book is a sword or scimitar of some type. DuncanHill (talk) 16:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * All I can find is that the sword and book may be symbols of Paul the Apostle. Algebraist 16:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You might also ask at WT:SCOUT. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  19:41, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Success stories of autistics
I am doing a project on success stories of autistics. Thanks to Wikipedia, I already have three examples:

Vernon Smith, American Nobel Prize-winning economist

Richard Borcherds, British mathematician, Fields Medalist

Satoshi Tajiri, Japanese game designer and creator of Pokemon

But I need two or three more examples. My examples need to be diverse in terms of their nationalities, fields of achievement and conditions on the autism spectrum (the three above are all Aspies, unfortunately).

Any suggestions? I would be particularly interested in:

An autistic chess prodigy with a Grandmaster title (or equivalent in other brain games)

An autistic who made highly significant contributions to an IT field or founded an IT multinational

A prolific autistic writer or musician whose works have received notable awards or topped bestseller lists/charts/box offices/etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.12.214 (talk) 16:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Stephen Wiltshire MBE, architectural artist. DuncanHill (talk) 16:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If you haven't already, take a look at List of people on the autistic spectrum. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:13, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Daniel Tammet, author of Born on a Blue Day is high functioning aspergers (I think, rather than autism). Steewi (talk) 02:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

She's on the list Gandalf61 linked to, but Temple Grandin has certainly made an interesting career using her different perspective. Given some of the stereotypes about autistics, her work in bioethics is particularly interesting. Matt Deres (talk) 16:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Flag question


Can anyone identify the lower of the two flags in the picture to the side? It's high resolution, so that might help. Nyttend (talk) 17:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, the picture will not display for me. DuncanHill (talk) 17:05, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Clicking on the link works for me. Unfortunately, only half the flag is visible. Algebraist 17:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Null-editing the image seems to have fixed it. Algebraist 17:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It looks almost Pashtun in nature, but it does not appear to be a flag affiliated with the US Historical places people, Pittborough, Pennsylvania or the US. SGGH speak! 19:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Under the Flag section, we have a number of galleries listed. I'd recommend browsing through them. A quick browse yielded nothing promising, but you may have better luck. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 19:13, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This is probably wildly off track, and I've found nothing to substantiate it, but my immediate impression was that it had something to do with scouting. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The colours are like those used by Scouts Australia in their version of the arrowhead. DuncanHill (talk) 21:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Man, it almost, but not quite, looks like the Hindu Aum symbol... Saukkomies 23:27, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the interesting set of ideas; a pity I took the picture when the flag wasn't very visible. I also got a second shot of the place at the same time, but (concentrating on a different part of the building) I missed the flagpole altogether in that one.  I have to go down there some time soon; hopefully the flag will be flying then.  Nyttend (talk) 23:48, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks like it is a letter written in an old english script or something like that. Keep in mind it is possibly reversed from this angle. If reversed, it could be M? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:08, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * 'H' (for Heidelberg) in Fraktur? —Tamfang (talk) 02:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Certainly not Fraktur. It appears to be an old English script. Avnas Ishtaroth drop me a line  05:22, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Lumber mill in Prescott, WI c. 1880
I am trying to find detailed information regarding lumber milling operations in the Prescott, WI area in the 1880's. It may be where "Pa Ingalls" of "Little House" fame worked. One of my ancestors, along with his brothers and sisters (as well as other friends and relatives) worked there after immigrating to the U. S. from Denmark. My ancestor's names appear on an 1880 census in the area. Family lore places them in the area as early as 1871. Recent verbal information has said that the mill was the "Rush Owen Mill." The Eau Claire, WI GenWeb project lists lumberman John S. Owen and his partner, R. E. Rush, but there is no other information there or in a web search.

Is it possible to find information that would list where their mills were located? Are there records of employees? Were there mills in that area owned by other lumbermen? What species of lumber was milled? Was it shipped "East" as much of the rest of the lumber from the upper midwest?

Any information would be appreciated.

Growing up d (talk) 17:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If you are able to go to Madison, visit the Wisconsin Historical Society, which is spectacular (I've been there). You can probably search through land records and other legal documents for the area; they should have them all in their archives (see here for example).  This could lead you to the names of mills and owners of mills, and show where they were.  Finding lists of employees would be more tricky, but you can do a good deal of research at the WHS.  Antandrus  (talk) 17:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * One other clarification: you may need to go to the Area Research Center in Pierce County instead, where they keep a lot of the actual records for that area. Antandrus  (talk) 18:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Rasta belief
As Rasta read from the old testament how does Rasta view the holy trinit. Judah —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.13.30 (talk) 20:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't know, but the "Selassie" in "Haile Selassie" (the other name of "Ras Tafari", after whom the movement is named) basically means "Trinity"... AnonMoos (talk) 22:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Check out our article Rastafari movement, where this question is explained. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:19, 22 September 2008 (UTC)