Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 August 17

= August 17 =

List of Arts and Sciences
Is there any list in English Wikipedia which covers the existing arts and sciences in the world. I have checked lot of lists but couldn't find the required one. I want a complete list, like a partial list shown in Urdu Wikipedia (link bellow)

http://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%81%DB%81%D8%B1%D8%B3%D8%AA_%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%88%D9%85

Regards, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.27.205.224 (talk) 08:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC) I require a list of arts and sciences like this Acarology Actinobiology Actinology Aerobiology Aerology Aetiology —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.27.204.62 (talk) 05:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Indonesian ballot paper of 1955
Is there anywhere online were one can find image (scan or photo) of ballot papers used in 1955 Indonesian elections? --Soman (talk) 08:11, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

meaning of ww2 japanese submarine designations
hello. what is the meaning (if any) behind the japanese designations for their ww2 subs? like I-xxx, RO-xxx or HA-xxx. german U-xxx, U came from Unterseeboot, american SS-xxx was Submersible Ship, but hard as i searched, i can't find any explanation for the japanese codes.

thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.207.101.112 (talk) 08:56, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "RO" is "呂" in Japanese. "I" is "伊". "HA" is "波". Together these spell 伊呂波-- in other words, it is the beginning of the iroha poem, akin to calling the lines "A" "B" and "C" in English. Shii (tock) 19:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Looking for a Captain Cook work
Does anyone have The Journals of Captain James Cook on his voyages of discovery, Volume 3? I am researching Myrmecia esuriens (a species of bulldog ant), and have found an interesting snippet regarding this ant in a google books search. Would someone be able to provide a full quote from the work?  Mae din \talk 11:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * One shouldn't get one's sources at second hand, I know; but if you just want to see what the journal says, I think the second quoted excerpt in the "Historical footnote" box on page 7 of this is the passage you're interested in. Deor (talk) 12:45, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That's actually extremely useful, thank you very much! Not ideal, but it will have to do for my purposes.   Mae din \talk 15:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Tracing the movements of George VI of the United Kingdom
Hi. I'm developing the Carrow Road article (feel free to help out). I have RS to say that King George VI visited a match at the ground on 29 Oct 1938. It makes sense to me that this took place during a royal stay at (relatively) nearby Sandringham House, but I'd love to be able to verify this. Is there a reliable source (preferably online!) that could help confirm this? The Times royal engagements column? --Dweller (talk) 12:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Norwich City Council say he was there on that day to officially open the newly built City Hall and then wandered down for the Millwall match. Nanonic (talk) 13:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * That's a nice detail, but I'm still wondering where he kipped that night/the night before. --Dweller (talk) 13:06, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Aha! From The Times Oct 15, 1938; pg. 9; Issue 48126; Start column: B ArticleID: CS151597903. "The Royal Visit To Norwich"
 * "When the King and Queen go to Norwich on Saturday, October 29, they will drive there from Sandringham with Sir Samuel Hoare as Minister in attendance. After laying a wreath on the war memorial, and inspecting ex-Service men and youth organizations, the King and Queen will take up their positions on a dais outside the City Hall. The Lord Mayor will offer to the King the Sword of State, and will then read a welcome to which the King will reply. The King will then declare open the new City Hall, and after the ceremony the Lord Mayor will offer the King a baton to commemorate the occasion.
 * The King and Queen will take luncheon with the Lord Mayor in St. Andrew Hall, and afterwards the Queen will visit the Norwhich and Norfolk Hospital to open the Geoffrey Colman Memorial. The King will drive alone to Carrow Road football ground to watch the match between Norwich City and Millwall. Later the King and Queen will visit the Norwich Lads' Club and then the Mutual Service Club before returning to Sandringham by car."
 * and - The Times Oct 31, 1938; pg. 11; Issue 48139; column: A ArticleID: CS184759135. "Royal Visit To Norwich New City Hall Opened, The King's Tribute FROM OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT. "
 * "The King went to see his first Football League match - that between Norwich City and Millwall - and was given a warm welcome by the large crowd. The ground was beflagged, and the arrival of the King was announced by a fanfare of trumpets. The crowd joined in singing the National Anthem, and the King walked out on to the field of play to shake hands with the players and referee. Then someone started singing "For he's a jolly good fellow," and the entire crowd took up the song. The King remained to watch the play for a quarter of an hour."
 * HTH Nanonic (talk) 13:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Now that is really quite outstanding. Thank you very much. --Dweller (talk) 13:35, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Terms of the lease of the New Territories, Hong Kong
This may be a difficult one. I have had this question in mind for years, but never found the answer, so I am coming here to see if it is true that the ref desk is doing wonders :-) Here it is: the Convention for the Extension of Hong Kong Territory "was a lease signed between Qing Dynasty China and the United Kingdom in 1898". Did the UK have to pay any sort of annual "rent" for the "lease", or was it just "free of charge"? And if that's too easy, what about Guangzhouwan? Thanks a lot! olivier (talk) 17:14, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This thread on Google Answers is all over the place but seems to say there were no payments or rent due. There seem to be numerous references, though two of the references I clicked were bad links.  Tempshill (talk) 20:14, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The Google Answers thread cites printed sources that may not be available online. The answer offered there, that there were no rent payments, is confirmed by the actual text of the agreement, on pp. 295 and 296 of this source, which does not mention any payment.  Now, if you scroll back to page 293 of the same source, you will find the lease agreement for Guangzhouwan, which likewise fails to mention any payment by France.  It seems likely that there was none.  Marco polo (talk) 20:24, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you VERY much! I am impressed by your ability to find these kind of resources. You guys are really doing a fantastic work here! olivier (talk) 09:45, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

White vs. APL family
Is japanese husband vs. white wife majority of interracial Asian family or is it the other way around. Becasue in my neighbor, husband is Japanese and wife is white. Same thing I saw on TV a Japanese man vs. white women on a date. I thought in general is an white husband vs. APL wife is most common IR family this is what happens in Chinese school TZU Chi orange county by looking at students last name of "olson" "myers" "Valverde" "Rother" obviously tells, and with facial looks I see alot of white dad, and most moms is chinese. What about Philipino or Cambodian faily is IR family work my white dad vs. APL mom or is it APL dad vs. white mom?--69.229.39.33 (talk) 17:39, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * From my personal observation, it appears the other way around in my part of the US. Googlemeister (talk) 17:48, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Wasn't a very similar question asked a few weeks ago? The way the question is phrased and the fact that the guy seems to claim he can tell whether a half Asian has a white mother or father based on looks make me think this he's trolling.  But yes, on the off chance that he's not, I would agree that the other way around seems much more common in North America.  TastyCakes (talk) 17:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that that portion of the OP was just saying, "I can see from facial features that the child is mixed Asian and white, and I infer from the non-Asian surname that the father was the white parent (assuming parents were married and the child took the father's surname)". WP:AGF.  --Sean 13:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Here is the data that you want.--droptone (talk) 18:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This is most straight-up link--69.229.39.33 (talk) 19:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * In conclusion to the graph Asian indian vs. white ratios est. tie. The way I estimate is top number be east asian husband, white wife, and bottom number will be white husband, east asian wife. For white-indian group seens odds equally tie of 20/20, for chinese-white seems like 20/30, for philipino-white ratio is 20/40, for white-japanese is 25/35, and white-korean is 25/50 and white vietnamese is 10/20. in conclusion seem like generally a white husband vs. asian wife is twice moae likely than asian husband vs. white wife but rversal still seems alot. Now I can add up all those ratios and avg. them up to do my own math. The only distintive race is black-and white. Black husband vs. white wife is far more likely than white husband black wife. Steve Sailor said.--69.229.39.33 (talk) 23:43, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Done math on Microsoft excel: Total estimate APL husband, white wife: 33/89 Total estimate white husband, APL wife:56/89.--69.229.39.33 (talk) 02:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

islamic monks?
Does Islam have anything similar to monasteries and monks from Christianity or Buddhism? Googlemeister (talk) 17:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Whirling Dervishes? --TammyMoet (talk) 17:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You may be interested in reading Monasticism. Nanonic (talk) 18:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Elections of Kenya and mozambique
Do Kenya and Mozabique allow leader to run as long as they want or now they set bar of two-terms only election. This one said Mwai Kibaki will be gone by 2012, and Joaquim Chissano last until 2004, and he's only 65 years at then, and he's younger than John Kufuor. is it because of the constitution or those guys want to quit. Yes I know alot of countries only allow two term election, but once they allow them to stay for >20 years. Daniel Arap Moi was in office for 24 years, joaquim Chissano was in for 18 years.--69.229.39.33 (talk) 18:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes Kenya has two-term limit since 1991 (See here, I couldn't find that fact on Wikipedia). 75.41.110.200 (talk) 20:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Mozambique also appears to have a two five-year terms limit. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 20:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Does Congress (in the US) have a source control system for the actual words going into a bill?
If I can lock a project so nobody can make any changes without my knowing it, is the government doing any better to keep just anybody on the inside from slipping a small sentence into a 1,000+ page document, and if there is something strange in there, to be able to see who added it and when? 20.137.18.50 (talk) 18:25, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you think you could explain your question a little bit more? I'm a little confused as to what you're talking about.  Do you mean can the Government check-in on or control Wikipedia?  What do you mean by the word "project?" ~ Amory ( user  •  talk  •  contribs ) 19:11, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think the question has anything to do with Wikipedia, but deals with control of the contents of legislation. There have been famous incidents in which either errors or substantive content have slipped into revised versions of lengthy bills as they moved through the amendment and conference processes. In general, "the bill is being pushed forward too fast for anyone to read it" has been a complaint I've heard about various pieces of legislation going back at least to the 1970s and I'm sure earlier. In answer to the original question, I'm not aware of any new methods recently introduced to address the issue. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Bills are often impossible to read anyway, since they usually consist of diffs like "From section Amendments, Item 1, Sentence 1, strike the words 'shall make no', and insert 'oughtta make a'". I doubt legislators read any bill before passage; pity the staffers.  --Sean 13:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I've not heard of them using anything like a real source control system; just committees and clerks. It can be quite difficult to figure out where a given sentence in a bill came from, and to maintain total control over the text of very long bills. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 19:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a great idea for the benefit of the poor staffers who are tasked with reading them. (I'm not asserting they actually do.)  Tempshill (talk) 20:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Sometimes things will get slipped in, like when Senator Leahy slipped something into a bill to try have Lake Champlaign declared to be the sixth Great Lake. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 20:09, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Or, more sinisterly, when Sen. Chuck Grassley reinserted a clause into the Tax Increase and Reconciliation Act of 2005 that had been rejected by both houses. In doing so, he violated not only the spirit of conference committees, but also the entire principle of representative democracy. Sadly, he has yet to be prosecuted of this heinous act. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I suppose so. Did he break any laws in so doing? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 03:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * In general, legislators' official actions are above the law due to separation of powers issues. This gets enforced even in cases of outright felonies, so Grassley's sort of legerdemain has basically zero chance of being prosecuted.  --Sean 13:32, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * While I would describe Grassley's actions as unethical, it is sadly not that uncommon and certainly not illegal. Other conference committee members and their staffs are supposed to keep an eye on these kind of shenanigans. These committees are bipartisan for a reason. —D. Monack talk 09:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So how were these instances like what you shared of Senators Leahy and Grassley traced back to them? An electronic log, a paper trail, or the old fashioned grapevine? 20.137.18.50 (talk) 13:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Can I just say that I find it utterly bizarre that an individual legislator can "sneak" a clause into a bill. I've never heard of this ever happening in any other vaguely democratic country. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:15, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Do other countries pass 1,000 page bills, or are they generally kept manageable (which would make shenanigan detection simpler? Googlemeister (talk) 14:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't know for sure about the size although I believe they tend to be shorter but definitely in Westminister parliamentary democracies I know of, bills tend to be fairly narrow in the sense they have a specific focus and don't get the sort of strange almost or literally unrelated stuff usually into bills that are very likely to pass that you seem to get a lot in the US as famously described in The Simpsons episode Mr. Spritz Goes to Washington. I've read a few of these before on wikipedia, perhaps there's even an article describing the practice but can't seem to find it. While omnibus bills do exist, even they tend to have a more specific focus where the you can understand the provisions being part of the bill unlike in the US where they sometimes seem to be just a bunch of stuff stuck together in the hope they all pass. (This doesn't of course mean certain clauses may not be controversial.) The other thing is perhaps the greater adherence to the party structure. Crossing the floor tends to be a lot rare and people tend to vote along party lines and most bills come from the government of the day (even if it's a minority government). This tends to mean (IMHO) it's a lot more difficult for a lone MP to sneak something into a bill and you can be sure if they do, they'll get into deep shit. The government may 'sneak' provisions in at the last minute but even that I think is less likely due to the furore it will cause and in any case this isn't a case of them presenting a different bill then what people voted on earlier but specifically amending the bill with the support of parliament . You can't just change the wording and hope no one notices. (You may be able to at the select committee stage but as I outlined, that's probably a lot less likely.) It's worth remembering that while the actions may not be illegal as mention by Sean, this doesn't prevent the party or parliament stopping them if they wish to. In most cases they could sanction the person for such actions (or at least change the rules so they can) in some way. Also, you could pass a bill to remove the provision that was snuck in. BTW, I can't find any references to what you're referring to about Chuck Grassley, was it this? "Grassley was eventually able to attach an amendment to a piece of legislation that went into effect in 2006, which increased taxes on Americans" Nil Einne (talk) 15:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Under Standing Orders (notably SOs 65 and 77), amendments to Bills in the British House of Commons must be relevant to the Long Title, and the Speaker will enforce this requirement. That prevents the logrolling common in the US Congress. Matt's talk 19:15, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not always obvious when they "slip in" this kind of legislation. There was a famous case that came up during the 1992 presidential campaign where Ross Perot had lobbied/bribed some legislators to insert language in a general tax cut bill to say something along the lines of, "if you took more than $30,000 in losses between 1974 and 1978, while having enormous ears, on investments concerning a brokerage with initials DGF, and have an absurd squeaky drawl, then you get a rebate".  The provision was argued on its merits, but only affected a single person in the whole country --- Ross Perot would have gotten a check from the IRS for $15 million.  --Sean 16:59, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Mexican vs. white interracial marriage
The OP above link was about Asian-white families. I found no source about mexican vs. white interracial marriage. Is is mexican-white families is it most common for white husband vs. Mexian wife or is it most common for mexican husband vs. white wife. This is kinda dubious to me becasue in general males skin seems to be daker than females skin.--69.229.39.33 (talk) 20:35, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Aren't most Mexicans "white people"?!? -- Jayron  32  20:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC) Scratch that.  Did the research.  Most people from Mexico are Mestizos of mixed European/Native American descent.  Now, are you refering to Mestizo-white marriages within Mexico, or mestizo-white marriages worldwide?  Because "Mexican" is not a race or ethnicity; its a statement of national origin, and something like 9-17% of Mexicans are themselves characterized as "white", so it is entirely possible to have a white Mexican marry a white citizen of another country. -- Jayron  32  20:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * In the U.S. a Mexican-American can be white and Hispanic - and that would not, necessarily, be considered multi-racial. U.S. Hispanics are about equally likely by gender to be in a intermarriage (except for recent Central American immigrants where women are slightly more likely.) Color of skin is not considered a particular factor between genders. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 23:11, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I mean Mexican Hispanic versus native US intermarriage. Which one os most common. A Hispanic husband vs white US wife or white US husband vs. hispanic wife.--69.229.39.33 (talk) 01:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Hispanic and white are not mutually exclusive categories. Hispanic is a U.S. census designation which describes a person's linguistic background where as White describes ones ethnic background.  It is possible to be Hispanic and White simultaneously (see Isabel Allende, as well as Hispanic and Black (see David Ortiz) or Hispanic and multiracial.  Your question is still impossible to answer because you are asking for a comparison of two non-comparible things.  Its like asking "Did you eat mashed potatos for dinner or take the train to work".  Hispanic and White refer to two different things entirely.  -- Jayron  32  02:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And I might add that "of Hispanic race" and "native US" are not mutually exclusive either (unless you mean Native Americans). DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Come on, don't be obtuse. He means Mestizo. He means the fact that most people of Mexican origin that one interacts with (at least, in Southern California, where the OP is from) have dark hair and brownish skin. Obviously the lines between the "races" are blurry as always but he's asking about general trends, not biological precision. (Obviously in such a situation you'd get many Puerto Ricans and other non-Mexicans who look similar swept into the same perceptual category, which I'm sure is fine.) I don't know the statistics, and I don't know if they are out there, but I am sure you could do a survey to find out (even if you just used self-identification). Obviously the US Census won't work for this because their categories are not set up to answer questions like this, but lord knows their categories are pretty problematic on a number of fronts. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 15:50, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think either are being obtuse. Some earlier questions were asked were Mestizo specifically came up and some explanation of why the OP's question was unanswerable. Despite that, the OP continues to use terminology that is confusing and so it remains unclear precisely what the OP is referring to. Perhaps the OP doesn't even understand the difference, in which case it's wise he or she learns before asking questions since it's unlikely he or she could understand the answers otherwise. If the OP wants to know about Mestizos - white marriages, then he/she should ask, but at the current time hasn't. Nil Einne (talk) 16:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's pretty clear what the OP wants, frankly. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 14:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

citing music
I posted this question on the Help Desk (where it belongs) but since it's sort of arcane, I thought I would cross post it here in case any musically-minded editors have some feedback.

In the past, I've worked on the article for the Harvard Glee Club, a choir that has had a lot of music written for it by various composers. I added a list of all such pieces that I could identify. Each of these pieces carries a note that says it was written for the harvard glee club, and I clumsily tried to explain that in the list introduction. In my attempt to get the article "good" status, an editor specifically complained that this list was unsourced. I would like to give another go at getting "good" status but I think this is the only issue from last time that will be hard to fix. Is it really necessary to manually cite each item on the list? What is the difference between doing that and simply stating at the top that each piece carries the dedication note? It's all good faith anyway, since no matter how it's cited, people will have to go look up the pieces to "prove" the citation is correct. The only difference I can identify is that the former will take hours and hours of work. Any feedback would be appreciated! Dmz5 *Edits**Talk* 22:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Judaism Ethnic divisions vs. denomination
Is there a website where they have a chart that shows the ethnic divisions of Judaism versus the denomination of Judaism (e.g. Mizrahi vs. Liberal, Mizrahi vs. Conservative, Mizrahi vs. Reformative, etc.)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.118.71 (talk) 23:25, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you're asking for, but these articles might help: Jewish religious movements & Jewish ethnic divisions. Note that denominational differences in Judaism tend to be solely among Ashkenazi Jews. —D. Monack talk 09:08, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Labelling Jews is not like labeling professions -- you're a dentist and he's a lawyer. Jews will tend to label themselves differently from how others would label them.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 17:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Districts of West Bengal versus religion
Which districts of West Bengal have significant number of Muslim population? Which districts of West Bengal have significant number of Christian population? Which districts of West Bengal have significant number of Buddhist population? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.118.71 (talk) 23:33, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not think the Indian census records its religion data in this way. Shii (tock) 00:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)