Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 December 26

= December 26 =

Princess of Girona
Was Isabella, Princess of Asturias and Joanna of Castile ever Princess of Girona during their father's reign? Aragon had different succession laws then Castile's and Ferdinand II of Aragon was trying to produce a male heir by his second wife, which might indicated he didn't recognize these two daughters as his heir till he had no other choice. I don't care about what any Wikipedia Article say, they're not reliable on this. --Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 01:52, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The Prince of Asturias article says that Joanna was Princess of Girona (with no sourcing), but does not mention Isabella having that title. But the Prince of Girona article says Isabella was Princess of Girona.  Woogee (talk) 22:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * This link may be of use to you. I hope this helps. JW.. &#91; T .. C  &#93;  23:58, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I edited those pages so don't mention them. I trying to remake the list but I'm not sure if she was or her sister Isabella were Princess of Girona. --Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 10:06, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I found a link that quotes documents showing Joanna was called princess of Asturias and Gerona during her lifetime. It does not show Isabella having that title. That doesn't necessarily prove that Isabella was not called princess of Gerona.--Cam (talk) 14:39, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Marrying in Washington
Basically I'm writing a story (ah, the usual opening). I have two characters who spontaneously decided to marry in Washington State. How long would it take between saying to the courts (or whoever makes it legal) "we want to marry ASAP" and "You are legally married"? Can it be arranged in 24 hours? What documentation do they need? Is it just proof of ID or do you need birth certificates? Any extra detail would be helpful too, although the narrator isn't present at the wedding, just hears about it afterwards as the groom is his older brother. I'm a Brit so I don't know how it works across the pond. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 02:05, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * This site seems to haev a lot of what you want. For example, in terms of the 24 hours thing, it says: "There is a full three (3) day waiting period between the time of application and validation date of the marriage license although all the documents needed are issued at the time of application. THIS WAITING PERIOD CANNOT BE WAIVED FOR ANY REASON." Matt Deres (talk) 02:46, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Are your characters in any specific part of Washington, or just generically in that state? As the link is from the Cowlitz County website, it might not reflect things elsewhere in the state; it's always possible that state law would give counties the right to regulate this kind of thing.  Nyttend (talk) 06:14, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Never mind, it's not just a county thing: §26.04.180 of the Revised Code of Washington says that "A marriage license issued pursuant to the provisions of this chapter may not be used until three days after the date of application." Nyttend (talk) 06:19, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If the 24 hours thing is important to the story, are they close enough to a state line (or even the Canadian border), and are the rules different in the surrounding states? Grutness...wha?  23:16, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help guys. No, the plot-important thing is that they marry on a trip away without telling their parents (who have highly important objections). -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 03:40, 27 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Make it a trip to Las Vegas, which has notoriously loose marriage laws. StuRat (talk) 03:12, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No, they're a respectable pair! Well, sort of. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 15:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Roman tunica
Would it have been typical for the Roman emperors like Tiberius and Augustus to have worn the tunic on a regular basis?--Doug Coldwell talk 13:20, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably, but presumably mainly under the "toga", which was the Roman garment signifying adult male status... AnonMoos (talk) 13:38, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Note that by the period of the Imperium, most Roman male citizens would probably only wear the Toga on formal and semi-formal occasions, but of course Emperors were in such situations most of their waking lives. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 01:02, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Like an undershirt? Would the ancient Roman soldiers have worn the tunic in combat situations?--Doug Coldwell talk 13:44, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, they would most likely have worn the tunic underneath their armour. In colder climates they would even have worn extra clothing underneath, and probably a cloak on top of it all. --Saddhiyama (talk) 01:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Hitler's badge
Was there any order in which Hitler would wear his badges? 83.31.114.102 (talk) 14:49, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Based on pictures I've seen, when he did wear his badges and/or awards the order would be his Golden Party Badge first, then his Iron Cross, then his Wound Badge. This picture illustrates this. Other times he is pictured only with his Iron Cross. I hope this helps. JW.. &#91; T .. C  &#93;  19:11, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Why didn't he wear his second Iron Cross? 83.31.98.45 (talk) 20:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * In many military organisations, if an individual is awarded the same medal/decoration/badge twice, the second is not worn as an actual second medal (or ribbon, when full medals are not being worn), but as a (usually) smaller element added to the first: in the British army, for example, this is called a Medal bar, so someone awarded, say, the Distinguished Service Order on two separate occasions would be described as wearing a DSO and bar. In the case of the Wehrmacht, a second Iron Cross was displayed not as the full badge but as a Spange zum Eisernen Kreuz (Clasp to the Iron Cross) or Spange. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 00:58, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Law against comparison shopping as depicted in the film Holiday Affair
In the beginning the of the 1949 American film Holiday Affair an employee of a department store suspects another character of being a "comparitive shopper" for a rival store and threatens to have her arrested. This is depicted as if it is a real crime. Was there some law at the time that applied to this? ike9898 (talk) 20:38, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I read one account of a man who said he was noting prices for items for a big party who was ejected from a store for "stealing prices" but I could not find the article at Google News Archive. I don't see why the merchant has any ground for complaint, since the shopper might just be comparison shopping. It might be store policy rather than statute law. Perhaps the merchant has something to hide, like in a period of price controls, or if prices are different from what a chain wants them to be. For cars, cameras, and electronic gadgets, ads often do not post the prices, in an effort to get shoppers to come to the store, and to avoid shoppers going someplace cheaper. If some consumer organization collected and posted prices, it would hurt the high price sellers. In retail trade, I have noted than many consumers have no idea what the going rate is for an item. Edison (talk) 21:17, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen the movie, but the way it's described, they suspected him of being an employee of the other store, which might have been a somewhat different issue. Whatever the prevailing attitude at the time, you couldn't get away with a threat like that now, or you'd have a serious P.R. problem. In fact, stores often encourage shoppers to compare prices at other stores, "We'll match any price!", and so on. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:23, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Janet Leigh = "her", not "him". Clarityfiend (talk) 00:40, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It sounds very unlikely. Competition is such a fundamental part of the free market that laws against knowing what your competitors are charging would make no sense. I don't see any reason why they couldn't be thrown out (shops are private property - as long as you don't violate discrimination laws you can throw out anyone you please), though, and if they refused to leave they could possibly be arrested for trespass (in places where trespass is an arrestable offence). --Tango (talk) 21:31, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It could also be literary license for dramatic effect. There's a scene in It's a Wonderful Life, where George is running away from a policeman, who fires his gun at George, on a public street (potentially endangering other citizens) and for no good legal reason. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:37, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Is it simply the McGuffin that moves the plot of Holiday Affair?--Wetman (talk) 21:50, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't call it a McGuffin. Robert Mitchum's character gets fired for not reporting the shopper to his superiors. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:40, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Similarly, the whole of Double Jeopardy (film) is based on a seriously flawed legal interpretation. --Tango (talk) 21:54, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I think though that I've heard a little about some funny anti-competitive laws the US used to have. My father once told me about 'fair trade laws' that seem like they might have applied to this, but our articles don't support this. ike9898 (talk) 23:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I haven't seen the film but Holiday Affair says: "Steve tells her that he should report her to the store detective, which would lead to her firing." The article doesn't mention a threat to have her arrested. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:19, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Now that you mention it (I have seen it, several times), she was worried about losing her job, not getting arrested. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:46, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * He could have had her arrested for tresspassing. Stores are private property, and may ask people to leave for any reason (save racial descrimination or something like that).  If they don't, the person is tresspassing.  -- Jayron  32  05:18, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned above, that only works in jurisdictions where trespass is an arrestable offence. In many jurisdictions trespass is just a civil offence so, presumably, wouldn't be arrestable. The police would remove the person from the store if asked to, I expect, but they wouldn't arrest them (unless they committed some other offence by refusing to obey the policeman or something). --Tango (talk) 14:47, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Could someone familiar with the scene give a more detailed description of what exactly goes on? Some of the bits and pieces above don't make much sense. Character 1 of Store A catches Character 2 of Store B noting prices and threatens to get her fired? How would that even work? "Hmm, my employee was doing something my rival didn't like, so I should... fire them?"

In a broader context, the comparative shopper could have been doing more than stealing prices, they could also have been noting stock levels. A tricky prospect in the days before RFID, etc., but certainly possible - and profitable. Noting mass numbers of prices could also be used to reveal stock costs by working backwards. For example, my rival store and I are of approximately the same size and we both sell sweaters by the same manufacturer and our prices are pretty similar for the whole line. However, we also both sell jeans from a different manufacturer and their prices are 20% less than mine. I could use that information to try to get a better deal from the jean manufacturer ("I want the same deal as that guy"), which would undermine my rival's advantage. Or worse, once the good deal is revealed, the jean manufacturer might bump their prices and remove my rival's advantage completely. Or, I could see that my rival is selling some shoes for a very good price from a vendor I don't deal with. It would be an advantage to me to begin negotiations with a specific price point already established. And so on. It's an extremely cut-throat industry. Matt Deres (talk) 14:59, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not 100% sure, but I think that, once detected, the comparison shopper would have her description passed around to the other employees (possibly to other chains as well), so she would be barred from the store and could no longer do her job. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:39, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Age of Jesus
Jesus Christ is generally reckoned to have been 33 years old at the time of his death. But what is thejustification for this? I don't think it's mentioned in the Bible, alhtough at one point someone says to him "Thou art not yet forty years old". --rossb (talk) 21:13, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As noted in Jesus, His approximate birth and death dates are inferred from gospel references to documented historical facts, particularly the terms of office of named Roman officials at those times. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Luke 3:23 states that Jesus was about 30 years old when he began his ministry. Pieceing together textual evidence from the gospels puts Jesus's ministry at about 3 years from his baptism to his crucifixion, which makes him about 33 years old when he died.  -- Jayron  32  05:17, 27 December 2009 (UTC)