Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 February 22

= February 22 =

British Royal Crest as displayed on the locomotive Duchess of Sutherland when the royal family is aboard...
Can you give me some information about the crest on the locomotive in your picture, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LMS_Princess_Coronation_6233_%27Duchess_of_Sutherland%27_at_Crewe_Works.jpg ? More specifically, what does the R stand for in the crest? I thought it might mean Regina, but a British woman told me that it means Royal. Can you help out?
 * EIIR stands for Elizabeth II Regina. Regards, MarquisCostello (talk) 00:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * See Royal Cypher -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:56, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

New York/Law & Order blue paper
In Law and Order, whenever a motion or suit is served on someone it is encased in blue paper. What is this called, and why is it used? EdwinHJ | Talk 00:32, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * See . Some jurisdictions specify blue bindings for court documents. Other sources say blue covers were used for legal documents as far back as the 1700's. Edison (talk) 03:40, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * In England & Wales we use a lot of pink ribbon (for legal documents, that is). --JoeTalkWork 03:45, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Hindus in Rome
Is there any historical record of Hindus traveling to the Roman Empire? What about Buddhists? L ANTZY T ALK 00:50, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The main exposure of westerners to eastern religions in classical antiquity was in Bactria (a Greek-ruled kingdom on the northwest edge of the Indian subcontinent), where there were apparent Greek converts to Buddhism like Milinda and Greek converts to Hinduism like Heliodorus, while the ruler Kanishka wrote ΒΟΔΔΟ (i.e. the name of Buddha transcribed as "Boddo" in Greek letters) on some of his coins... AnonMoos (talk) 01:54, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, the existence of the Greek Bactrian kingdom was what aroused my curiosity in that direction. But I am specifically interested in Rome. Did Hindus ever set foot in the Roman Empire? Also, was any classical Roman writer aware, however dimly, of Hinduism or of the Hindu pantheon? L ANTZY T ALK 02:58, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably some did arrive from time to time, but not in such a way as to create significant historical traces, as far as I'm aware. The Greeks were certainly aware of Hindus, but mainly as "naked philosophers" and ascetic forest hermits... AnonMoos (talk) 07:43, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * See Gymnosophists... AnonMoos (talk) 07:54, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Surely Alexander the Great had frequent contact with Hindus. That doesn't address the Rome connection, though, obviously.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:29, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Strabo XV i 4 mentions one such embassy from Pandion and there are various other brief mentions scattered throughout ancient literature many of them drawn together in this article Roman trade with India. here are some other books on the subject   I expect the religious ideas of India were investigated by Romans at the time but Romans tended to assimilate and say "that Rama, he is just Jupiter under another name" not sure the details of their belief were ever really recorded by the Romans  meltBanana  22:13, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks MeltBanana, that's the sort of thing what I was after. L ANTZY T ALK 11:35, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Bi bigamist
A hypothetical situation: A man marries a woman in Texas. On vacation in Boston, he marries a man. It stands to reason that the commonwealth of Massachusetts would consider him a bigamist. But would the state of Texas? L ANTZY T ALK 01:05, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I remember reading a standard law textbook case from many years ago where a scoundrel, who was married, married an innocent young girl to have his way with her, then claimed the marriage was null and void because he was already married. The courts, although bigamy was illegal, ruled that he was married to both women, since otherwise he would benefit from his misconduct, so he had to support both women. Might a court in a conservative state do similar logical legerdemain? Edison (talk) 01:41, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * But Texas would be in a very tight spot. If it charged the man with bigamy, would it not essentially be recognizing same-sex marriage? L ANTZY T ALK 02:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * My reaction was that if any state had jurisdiction to prosecute the man for bigamy, it'd be Massachusetts. But on checking on online copy of the Texas penal code, section 25.01, I find it's illegal in Texas if a married person "purports to marry or does marry a person other than his spouse in this state, or any other state or foreign country, under circumstances that would, but for the actor's prior marriage, constitute a marriage".  So indeed it seems the only issue is whether they have to recognize the same-sex marriage as a marriage.  (I note incidentally that the law only says it applies to US states and foreign countries -- apparently if his bigamous marriage took place in Washington, DC, he would be safe from prosecution in Texas!)  --Anonymous, 07:22 UTC, February 22, 2009.


 * That's interesting. L ANTZY T ALK 20:17, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you will find that other laws state that DC is included when the word 'state' is used in most circumstances. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:52, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That's interesting. I've seen some people claim DC is not entitled to voting congressional representatives (without an amendment) because the consitution says only states are. If the law giving DC representatives goes through and someone challenges it for the 'not a state' reason and the Supreme Court rules that DC isn't a state what would that mean for every other law and aspect of the constition that refers to states only? Nil Einne (talk) 14:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * All those defense-of-marriage laws and amendments have been to fend off the full faith and credit clause of the U.S. Constitution. It would really ultimately depend on how the U.S. Supreme Court interprets that provision of the constitution... AnonMoos (talk) 01:45, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I'm surprised someone hasn't tried it, or something similar, just to force the court's hand. L ANTZY T ALK 02:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * They're probably afraid that the Bush court would decide against it. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:30, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Breaking laws just to see what will happen isn't generally a wise move... --Tango (talk) 21:57, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It doesn't sound like breaking the law to see what would happen, but breaking the law to force the next move. Both Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther King Jr would disagree with you, in any case. Llamabr (talk) 01:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * But chances are Texas would just let Massachusetts deal with it, and you wouldn't achieve anything. Civil disobedience needs to be better planned if it is going to have the desired effect. --Tango (talk) 13:29, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What are we even talking about here anyway? If you just want to challenge the DOMA and similar laws, there's no need to break any laws or do the bigamy idea. Just get married in a state where you can and then try to have your marriage recognised in a state where the law says it shouldn't be recognised and take it all the way to the US Supreme Court. According to comments at (not a RS obviously) the reason why we haven't seen any challenges is indeed because people are afraid of setting a bad precedent because of the current composition of the court. It even suggests some ACLU chapters are advising against it for that reason. 13:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Bahrain- Music and Clothes
I am studying Bahrain in my social studies class and cant find a lot of information on what their native clothing and native music is. If you know of any books or websites that has any good information on these items please let me know!
 * For music, the article Music of Bahrain may be of use to you. Regards, MarquisCostello (talk) 02:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * And for the clothing including traditional dress, see Culture of Bahrain. You might also find images from Google or Flickr useful.  Astronaut (talk) 15:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Alternatives to drone attacks
The US has allegedly used drones to target militants in Pakistan. Are there any realistic alternatives to this option? ExitRight (talk) 02:08, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I am likely missing the point: what is the problem with using drones qua drones? I am not partisan in this, but the word "alleged" suggests a problem. // BL \\ (talk) 02:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It's just that most media say alleged. ExitRight (talk) 04:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well they could use manned aircraft/vehicles or (unmanned) missiles as alternatives, but drones seems like a way of maintaining control without endangering US personnel. -- SGBailey (talk) 09:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe the reason drones are preferred in this case is due to their long loiter times. --Sean 16:02, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The reason the media say alleged is that the US is not officially admitting it, because they don't want to be too open about illegal violation of another country's sovereign territory. Algebraist 10:46, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, this allows for plausible deniability in case Pakistan wants to claim they were the ones who launched an attack. StuRat (talk) 13:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Answering the question... Yes. There are many alternatives.  The problem is your use of realistic.  That is a matter of opinion, based on how crazy the answerer may be.  We could send guys walking through the mountains to get picked off by snipers and mines.  We could pay someone else to go in and kill militants, but the money will likely just go straight to the militants anyway.  We could carpet bomb the whole area, but that isn't effective.  We could toss all past agreements out the window and napalm all the cave entrances.  We could wire bombs to monkeys and send them in searching for food.  We could start sending in thousands of Barney DVDs and just hope that everyone becomes friends.  Of course, I've crossed my line of realistic already. --  k a i n a w &trade; 03:03, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

How hard would it be for a country to shoot down drones launched over its territory? Cuba could shoot down U2 spy planes in the early 1960's, so it would seem Pakistan could shoot down drones in 2009 if they wished to. described a Pakistani exercise in shooting down drones. If U.S. drones are circling over Pakistan for prolonged times then launching missiles toward dwellings or vehicles, it would seem to be because Pakistan doesn't mind it. Yugoslavia seemed to have no trouble shooting down drones in the 1990s. Edison (talk) 03:32, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "Doesn't mind" is a bit strong. They simply judge the bad things that would happen as a result (sanctions and perhaps a US ground invasion) to be worse than the bad things that happen currently. StuRat (talk) 05:19, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * William Saletan of Slate talks about the drone vs. terrorist war on a regular basis. His most recent column was about the identification of a US drone base inside Pakistan. --JGGardiner (talk) 09:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Indian Buddhists
Which ethnic groups of India have Buddhist followers?
 * Many are Dalits (see Dalit Buddhist Movement), but that is a social rather than an ethnic distinction. For more, see History of Buddhism in India. L ANTZY T ALK 03:46, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably you're thinking of India as the modern country called India. British India until 1937 included Burma, and in those days most Indian Buddhists were Burmans. Another ethnic group closely associated with Buddhism is the Sinhalese people of Sri Lanka, some of whom live in present-day India. Xn4  ( talk ) 02:49, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Hindu, Christian and Buddhist President and Prime Minister of Bangladesh
When will be the time that Bangladesh will have its first Hindu president of Bangladesh, first Christian president, first Buddhist president, first Hindu Prime Minister, first Christian Prime Minister and first Buddhist Prime Minister? or Is it against the constitution? -- 03:36, 22 February 2009 74.14.117.39
 * First of all, the Reference desk cannot predict the future, so we can't tell you when such a thing will happen. The Constitution of Bangladesh prescribes equality before the law, but it is also expressly non-secular, placing "Absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah". It could be argued that this excludes the possibility of a non-Muslim president or prime minister. In any case, practically speaking, it is very unlikely that a non-Muslim would achieve such a high political office in a country where 90% of the people practice Islam. L ANTZY T ALK 03:59, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there time for all that? Aren't the rising sea levels supposed to swallow up the country sooner or later? =) --JGGardiner (talk) 09:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

IDENTITY OF SANJOY, A CHARACTER OF THE MAHABHARATA
I want to know as detail as possible about Sanjoy, the remarkable character of the Mahabharata, who described the War of Kurukshetra to the blind king, Dhritarastra.


 * Well, we have Sanjaya, as a start. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:09, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * We have an article on the character, at Sanjaya and we also have an article on Mahābhārata and on the Bhagavad Gita, which describes the war, and on the Kurukshetra War itself.
 * I hope this helps! --Jayron32. talk . contribs  14:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

The reference received, is no doubt helpful but still I cannot have a detail about Sanjaya, the epic Hero. If possible, I like to know (i)the name of father and mother of Sanjaya; (ii) How Sanjaya came to be the Charioteer and Companion of Dhritarastra; (iii) why Sanjaya had been chosen to have extra-ordinary vision?


 * I have not read the Mahabharata in detail, and its been maybe 15 years since I read the Bhagavad Gita. You best source would be in the Mahabharata itself.  There may be versions with a decent index or concordance which may help you find that information.  The best source is always the text itself.  If its not in the Mahabharata, than any information about the character is probably outside of accepted Hindu canon so your guess is as good as anybodys.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  03:16, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Today I found out that "Gobogon" was the father of Sanjaya, the epic character.


 * (i) The spelling I know best is Gavalgana (Sanjaya is usually called "son of Gavalgana" (the patronymic is Gavalgani), in the Mahabharata). Here is one source: Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Purāṇas By Parmeshwaranand. It says says Sanjaya's parents were Sūtā and Gavalgana (Sūtā may refer to his particular caste). It also includes other details of his life such as how he died.
 * (iii) The Bhishma Parva describes this incident: Sanjaya received the blessing of the vision from Vyasa because Dhritarashtra had refused it, not wanting to see his sons die. See this book.
 * I could not find any information on (ii). Best, WikiJedits (talk) 16:23, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Looking for a chart of Canadian stock (index) performance before and during the Great Depression
The TSX started in 1934 when the TSE merged with the "Standard Stock and Mining Exchange." I'm looking for a chart of any Canadian indexes during this time (1920s-1940s). I don't know if the S&P TSX goes back this far. NByz (talk) 19:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * You should be able to find back-calculated data for periods preceding the institution of the index itself. Don't know about any specific data source though. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 22:06, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The most commonly quoted Canadian indexes are the Standard & Poors TSX Composite and 60. S&P only began coverage of the composite index in 1977, and I can't find a start date for the 60.  What common indexes were used on the TSX/TSE before that? NByz (talk) 22:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It might be useful to look at newspapers of that period, at least to see if there were any stock market indexes in that period and, if so, what they were called. For the Toronto Star and the Globe and Mail, all issues from the founding of the two papers until a few years ago have been put online through ProQuest.  They are not available freely on the Internet, but are available freely at public library computers in Toronto and presumably some other cities.
 * For the Star, they are also available online on a pay basis at pagesofthepast.ca (currently you can search the year 1945 as a free sample); I don't know if the Globe has a similar arrangement for direct Internet access. Note that searching on these online papers is somewhat unreliable, as the OCR is far from perfect -- if you search on "green" you might get hits that turn out to be on "greed" or "preen", which also means that some hits that you should get on "green" may be missed in the same way.  And you don't get any context for the hit, just the page number; to see the context you have to load the entire page (in PDF) and view it (the actual hits are highlighted in color), which isn't always convenient. But this may be useful.  If you are actually in Toronto, an alternative way to view these old papers (and the Toronto Telegram too) is to go to the central reference library, where they are available on reels of microfilm.  --Anonymous, 00:57 UTC, February 23, 2009.


 * Before the Great Depression, Montreal was the financial center of Canada, and the Montreal Stock Exchange was more important than the exchanges in Toronto. The situation began to change in Toronto's favor during the 1930s.  So you would also do well to check library microfilm copies of the Montreal Star, Canada's leading newspaper during the first half of the 20th century. It would also have information on the Toronto exchanges.  Marco polo (talk) 02:23, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


 * An easier path than scouring reels of microfilm might be to track down The Depression in Canada: Responses to Economic Crisis (1988), available, for example, through Amazon, or, less expensively, from academic and public libraries around the world, especially in Canada.  I am not familiar with this source, but it is likely to have stock data, or at least reference to sources that have such data.  Marco polo (talk) 02:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)