Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 February 26

= February 26 =

Universal Healthcare in the United States
If the government of the United States decided to institute a Universal Healthcare system, run by the Federal Government, what clause in our constitution would support it? Would it be the Commerce Clause? 66.229.148.27 (talk) 00:22, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably the thin legal argumentation that makes the Social Security Administration constitutional too: . --98.217.14.211 (talk) 01:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * See Taxing and spending clause. Basically, the government can spend money on almost anything. Its regulatory powers are narrower. Assuming the healthcare system imposed included regulatory elements, that would probably fall under the interstate commerce clause. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The Reference Desk should provide answers, not opinions. I don't have time to research this topic. The broadest embrace of federal power is the Interstate Commerce Clause, which the problems of the Great Depression, widened considerably. Although the present Court and the Rehnquist court trimmed the expanse of the clause, it is still formidable. Congressional findings are important for justifying use of a federal power. The SSA is valid, it is not thinly valid. We can post debates between the American Constitution Society and the Federalist Society all day. They remain citizen opinions. Hopefully, someone will arrive with citations for cases that clearly express Congress' authority in this area.75Janice (talk) 16:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC) 75Janice

You're committing a crime
Ehud Barak is on List of assassins.. how dare you call him an assassin. You have no evidence. --201.254.84.133 (talk) 02:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * He's on the list because our article on him says he was an assassin during his service in Sayeret Matkal. Comments about the content of an article are best made on the talk page of the article in question. 02:15, 26 February 2009 (UTC)DuncanHill (talk)

But an assassin is a criminal! and he is not a criminal! --201.254.84.133 (talk) 02:19, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The Sayeret Matkal engaged in assassinations. This is a fact. (See, for example, 1973 Israeli raid on Lebanon.) They no doubt committed crimes in the process. These are not really up for debate. Whether you think their assassinations were, in the end, moral, justified, etc., is an entirely different question from whether they were legal (under whose jurisdictions?). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 02:34, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "Assassinations" is your choice of word; what about extra-judicial killings? See the latter page for the distinction; I suggest it better fits the case of Sayeret Matkal (with no different moral equivocation implied, nor language-laundering or sheer semantics). -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:02, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

But understand what I mean, if he committed crimes he would have been charged or accused by some International Court and it never happened. --201.254.84.133 (talk) 02:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Murder per se is not an international crime. (Assassination as a method of terrorism may or may not be, and in any case is not yet within the jurisdiction of the ICC). And in any case state terrorism may or may not be within the definition of terrorism at international law.
 * Assassination per se is probably not a crime in many jurisdictions, especially if it is sanctioned by the government and/or in the interest of national defence. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:45, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, libel is not a crime in a number of jurisdictions although a person may still sue you for defamation. Evidentally Florida has criminal libel laws although this 1991 source  suggests they unconstitional but they're being used in this modern internet age  and haven't yet been ruled completely unconstitional but some have  and it doesn't seem they reached the Supreme Court yet. Nil Einne (talk) 03:15, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * See our page on Extrajudicial killings, the nature and instances of which are treated separately from assassination. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:55, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Huh? Israel routinely carries out assassinations "targeted killings".  Their military obviously considers it a legitimate tactic.  --Sean 13:28, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment removed by original editor Milkbreath (talk) 15:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC).
 * Perhaps. The place for a discussion of the purpose of List of assassins is Talk:List of assassins. Algebraist 14:02, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * True. I've removed my argument for the disinclusion of Mr. Barak, making Algebraist's remark immediately above refer to nothing. --Milkbreath (talk) 15:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

"To-may-to", "to-mah-to." "Assasination," "extrajudicial killing," "targeted killing," "wet work."Edison (talk) 02:28, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Title of Dante's Commedia
Greetings,

I'm wondering if the background behind the Divine Comedy's original title is known? It predates Commedia dell'arte, and I can't find the original Italian meaning (the full meaning, not just a literal translation to "comedy") of the word.

Thanks a lot, Aseld   talk  05:16, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * There is an explanation of sorts in the article on The Divine Comedy, in the thematic concerns section:
 * "Dante called the poem "Comedy" (the adjective "Divine" added later in the 14th century) because poems in the ancient world were classified as High ("Tragedy") or Low ("Comedy"). Low poems had happy endings and were of everyday or vulgar subjects, while High poems were for more serious matters. Dante was one of the first in the Middle Ages to write of a serious subject, the Redemption of man, in the low and vulgar Italian language and not the Latin language as one might expect for such a serious topic."
 * - EronTalk 05:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, thank you. Apologies; should have read the article more carefully. -- Aseld  talk  05:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's what Dante himself had to say (if, that is, one accepts the attribution of the letter to Can Grande to him): Comedy, then, is a certain genre of poetic narrative differing from all others. For it differs from tragedy in its matter, in that tragedy is tranquil and conducive to wonder at the beginning, but foul and conducive to horror at the end, or catastrophe. … Comedy, on the other hand, introduces a situation of adversity, but ends its matter in prosperity. … And, as well, they differ in their manner of speaking. Tragedy uses an elevated and sublime style, while comedy uses an unstudied and low style. … So from this it should be clear why the present work is called the Comedy. For, if we consider the matter, it is, at the beginning, that is, in Hell, foul and conducive to horror, but at the end, in Paradise, prosperous, conducive to pleasure, and welcome. And if we consider the manner of speaking, it is unstudied and low, since its speech is the vernacular, in which even women communicate. (Trans. Robert S. Haller) Deor (talk) 13:10, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Speech made by the Australian Prime Minister
I've been sent one of these circular emails which claims to report the exact text by the current Australian Prime Minister. Reading his biog on here and his quotes on Wikipedia, it seems most unlikely that he ever made this speech. How can I find out? --TammyMoet (talk) 13:26, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If you get an email that seems suspicious, you can often just enter a distinctive phrase from it (in quotes) into Google and find various pages (e.g., Snopes) pointing out that it's a hoax. --Sean 13:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Was it this email? DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:03, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yup! That's the one. As I thought! Many thanks. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:53, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Which refers to the former (not the present) Prime Minister. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:18, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

What's this philosophical belief?
What's the name of the philosophical belief which states that moral judgments are meaningless from an objective standpoint and are just opinions(for instance, if you say "killing is wrong" you're really saying "I dislike killing" or more crudely "Killing stinks!")? 69.224.37.48 (talk) 16:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It think you want ethical subjectivism, though 'Killing stinks!' is perhaps closer to emotivism. Algebraist 16:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Or, relativism? Bus stop (talk) 16:24, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Or, moral relativism? Bus stop (talk) 16:26, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Or, in more formal philosophy, Nihilism meets this definition the best. From our article: "Nihilists generally assert that objective morality does not exist, and subsequently there are no objective moral values with which to uphold a rule or to logically prefer one action over another."  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  19:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * In more formal philosophy, Algebraist's answer is best, although see also expressivism. Nihilism is a vague word with various meanings and it doesn't capture the full sense of what the questioner is asking. (The article on moral nihilism says "Moral nihilism must be distinguished from ethical subjectivism, and moral relativism, which do allow for moral statements to be true or false in a non-objective sense, but do not assign any static truth-values to moral statements.")


 * The difference between emotivism and ethical subjectivism is that the latter states that moral propositions are meaningful and it makes sense to discuss moral ideas, whereas emotivism holds that there are no moral propositions, just gut reactions (making it non-cognitivist; hence it is sometimes called the "hurrah/boo theory"). Expressivism is a related non-cognitivist topic, holding that moral judgements don't express moral facts but instead the attitude (likes/dislikes) of the speaker; it differs from emotivism in holding that moral judgements are not primarily emotional reactions (they may be beliefs, expressions of opinion, or commandments).  The Stanford Encyclopedia of philosophy has some good articles that explore the topic in a more formal way than Wikipedia. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 13:52, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Some associate that stance with post-modernism. DanielDemaret (talk) 02:53, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Cairo talks, February 2009
says that 13 Palestinian groups are meeting for unity talks in Cairo. The article names Hamas, Fatah, PFLP, DFLP, PPP and Islamic Jihad. But which are the other seven groups present? Any news links? --Soman (talk) 16:22, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * indicates that PNI, PPSF, PFLP-GC, Fida and ALF are also present. So who are the remaining 2? --Soman (talk) 20:22, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I would imagine there will be some Mossad agents there. :-) StuRat (talk) 03:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Question
Is the United States an Empire? I have heard the term before somewhere but it doesn't appear to be a common term in my area. What qualifies it as an empire if it is one? 65.167.146.130 (talk) 16:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * See American Empire. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:45, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Let's not forget Norton I, Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico. :) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I've heard it referred to as the Empire of Liberty. Exxolon (talk) 19:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It is not an Empire that would be ruled by an emperor but it can be looked at as imperialistic. Livewireo (talk) 20:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "Empire of Liberty", by the way, was Thomas Jefferson's phrase; he also used "Empire for Liberty". In Jefferson's day, "empire" simply meant a large, diverse country (or confederation of states), and so the Founding Fathers of the US frequently spoke of their creation as an empire, even though they had no desire for emperors or monarchs. A century ago, an "empire" was a state that imposed dominion over other territories. Now it just means a large state whose foreign policy you don't like. ;-) —Kevin Myers 22:35, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Historian Niall Ferguson argues that it is, but that being so isn't necessarily a bad thing, in his book Colossus: The Rise and Fall of The American Empire. Some of the beginning part of that covers some hand-wringing wherein Americans recognise the US has many of the characteristics of an empire, but are deeply unhappy at it being called that. 87.112.17.229 (talk) 00:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, what have the Romans ever done for us? Apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us? --Jayron32. talk . contribs 02:37, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * In South America, where the US has a long history of interfering in internal affairs, many refer to the US as "The Empire". Perhaps you heard this from a South American source? DanielDemaret (talk) 02:50, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The U.S. actually has a much longer history of interfering in the affairs of Central America and the Caribbean than in South America [[Image:SFriendly.gif|20px]] -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:35, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The Statehood Monument on Market Street, San Francisco, quotes Senator Seward (iirc) saying THE VNITY OF OVR EMPIRE HANGS ON THE DECISION OF THIS DAY (i.e., on the question of admitting California as a State). —Tamfang (talk) 22:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

The U.S. acted like an empire in the 1890's when it seized Cuba (including Guantanamo), Puerto Rico, Hawaii and the Phillipines, because fueling stations for ships were necessary to maintaining a worldwide navy. The Phillipines finally got their independence from colonial rule by the U.S. in 1946. Hawaii was absorbed as a state in the 1950's, Puerto Rico is still ruled by the U.S. after 111 years, and Guantanamo is still maintained as a naval base/prison through a contract of adhesion wherein the U.S. could keep Guantanamo as long as it chose. Empire? Certainly, but without an emperor. Edison (talk) 02:24, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The US has a long history of imperialism. Jefferson himself oversaw the Louisiana Purchase, which placed great numbers of people, including many "civilied" Europeans' and descendants under US jurisdiction without consent. The Mexican Cession forced even larger numbers of "foreigners" to live under US rule without choice. Perhaps the most obviously imperial example is the many American Indian Wars which were often undisguised wars of conquest, forced land cessions, and the long-lasting legal status of defeated Indians as "wards of the state" or at best "second class citizens". The American mythos calls it Manifest Destiny, a noble thing. But isn't this just a feel-good gloss over imperialism? Pfly (talk) 09:54, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * See the recent BBC Radio 4 series America, Empire of Liberty, and Denys Arcand's film The Decline of the American Empire. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:37, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Syria as non-member of Francophonie
Why Syria is not a member of Francophonie, even though it was under the French control during the Interwar Period? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.75.34 (talk) 18:28, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Because it doesn't want to be? Many former French colonies actually have had mixed feelings about having been recipients of the mission civilisatrice, and some Syrians have bitter historical memories about the whole Sykes-Picot and Battle of Maysalun thing, as well as the unilateral French cession of Alexandretta to Turkey.  I'm not sure that French was ever as widely used in Syria as it was in Lebanon, anyway. AnonMoos (talk) 18:53, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Francophonie is sort of the French analog to the Commonwealth of Nations. Just as there are former British colonies which have opted out of the Commonwealth, there are likely many former French colonies which have opted out of Francophonie.  It's not exactly the same, since Francophonie is more about French language than French colonialism, so some nations, like the Democratic Republic of Congo and Egypt, which were never French colonies, ARE members because of their sizable French-speaking population.  Likewise, there are some areas with sizable French-speaking populations, such as parts of the United States (specifically Louisiana and New England) which are not members.  It is a voluntary organization, so places like Syria and Algeria, both former French colonies, may have political reasons to not join.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  19:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Louisiana is actually an observer, which is all that it is eligible for. Two Canadian provinces are member governments but under the Canadian membership. --JGGardiner (talk) 19:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Louisiana is not an observer in La Francophonie, although it takes part in the Association parlementaire de la Francophonie, the Francophone parliamentary association. Observer status in La Francophonie is reserved for states; sub-national governments can become part of la Francophonie as a "Participating government". At this time, only Quebec, New Brunswick and the Communauté française de Belgique have this status. As for Syria, it has chosen not to seek membership for domestic political reasons (i.e. it considers itself to be a part of the Arab world only). --Xuxl (talk) 20:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well they are an observer in the ordinary sense of the word, perhaps without the fancy title. They took part in the recent summit in Quebec for example and Bucharest before that.  Incidentally Syria is a member of the the parliamentary association as well. --JGGardiner (talk) 21:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Movement Along the Supply/Demand Curve
In introductory economics classes, you hear a lot about movements along the curve versus shifts of the curve. However, while real-life examples are often given of the latter, none ever seem to be given for the movements along the curve; i.e. it always seems as if ANY change in ANYTHING in the market shifts the entire curve. Is the idea of a movement just a fantasy? Can anyone provide an example of the price changing that results in a movement along one of the curves? Thank you 136.152.140.202 (talk) 19:20, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * A shift in one curve corresponds to a movement along the other. For example, if demand for gas increases, the price of gas increases and so too does the quantity sold -- that's a movement along the supply curve. Wikiant (talk) 19:29, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * yes, but is there ever a time when only a movement takes place? in the free market, there must be some shift in a curve to change the price and quantity.  i don't understand the importance of learning about movements, that's my point.136.152.144.128 (talk) 20:34, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Only when there is a disequilibrium. By definition, if the market remains in equilibrium, a shift in one curve is accompanied by a movement along another. An example of disequilibrium is the case of the minimum wage. If the government imposes a minimum wage that is above the free market wage, then we move up the demand curve and up the supply curve. The result is a higher wage, a lower quantity demanded of labor, and a greater quantity supplied of labor. Wikiant (talk) 20:58, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I have to say I don't understand how the original poster is using the word "movement". The curves move, and the intersection of the two curves determines the price in a free market.  What do you think is moving along the curve? One can record how prices and supply change over time and graph the datapoint dots to see the intersection points of the theoretical curves.  The curves themselves are pretty much imaginary, e.g. it's taken on faith that more people will buy something if it's cheaper (as long as it's not luxury goods), even if there is no practical way for an actual person to buy an item for 1/1000th of a cent less than the previous price.  - BanyanTree 02:16, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "Movement along the curve" is a standard phrase used in economics textbooks to describe a change in price due to something other than a shift in the curve in question. The curves are not imaginary, but rather are graphical representations of idealized relationships. Wikiant (talk) 12:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * yes, and this is the essence of my original question. they teach this to us in class, but it doesn't seem to really translate to anything in the real world, as banyantree correctly pointed out.  i'm just very confused why the teachers and authors think this is an essential point to make when it really means nothing at all169.229.75.140 (talk) 05:12, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Bangabhumi
I know that Khulna and Barisal Divisions of Bangladesh will be part of the idea of Bangabhumi. Do you know which two districts of West Bengal will be part of this idea? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.75.34 (talk) 20:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Nationalism
After reading the article "Baloch Nationalism", I notice at the bottom of the page that you put Sindh nationalism, Khalistan and Marathi. What about Gujarati, Oriya, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, Assamese, and Bengali in West Bengal and Pashto? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.75.34 (talk) 20:15, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is edited by millions of people around the world, there is no "you," it is "we." If you wish to see it changed, be bold and change it yourself. Livewireo (talk) 20:28, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Flag draped coffin photos
Per the flag draped coffins ("transfer cases" in government-speak) of America's returning war dead can now be photographed, as long as the family agrees. What possible mechanism or process could be set up to notify the families that the coffin is due to land at Dover Air Base, then get back permission from the families of all on board, then notify the Associated Press and other news agencies to send a photographer? Or would they Photoshop out the coffins of those whose families did not give permission? How can one flag draped coffin be distinguished from another, since they are not talking about photos showing the face of the deceased? Has any newspaper or press service announced plans to publish photos of all such planeloads of flag draped caskets, or to carry videos of each on the evening news? Edison (talk) 20:33, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Depending on other considerations, they could do an opt-in or opt-out pre-approval form. Perhaps attached to the notice (phone? in person?) of when the coffin will arrive in the country. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 21:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you're on to something, Edison. That is, Obama doesn't want such pics in the paper any more than Bush did, knowing the press will print those pics daily with few pics of the far more people who die each day of other causes, giving the public the impression that our soldiers are being massacred daily when the casualties are actually quite light.  This could undermine public support for any military actions, present or future (such as to stop the genocide in Darfur).  However, just banning such pics is bad PR, too.  So better to pretend to allow them, but set up a difficult, nebulous process for getting permission, so that it doesn't actually happen. StuRat (talk) 02:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I think a better approach would be to allow photos of flag-draped coffins so long as this coverage is proportional to coverage of US deaths from other causes. So, if one soldier a day dies in combat, and 10,000 US civilians die a day from other causes, then every photo of a flag-draped coffin would require 10,000 photos of other coffins, at the same size, in the same paper.  This would stop press bias towards over-reporting military deaths, without creating any sense of a cover-up. StuRat (talk) 17:47, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Not fair. How about number of photographs of as many US civilians die out side USA in a day? Is there any such count? 122.169.127.46 (talk) 05:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * According to the established religion, people authorized to kill are special; therefore the Govt has no cause to complain if their deaths are emphasized over others. To treat them as no more important than the deaths of octogenarian tourists would be failing to Support Our Troops.  —Tamfang (talk) 06:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There are many "special" groups which are underrepresented in the press, like children who die of diseases (you generally only hear about them when someone is begging for money for those diseases), or minorities who are murdered, or accident victims. StuRat (talk) 17:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

The Garden of Death
Calling all Oscar Wilde experts! And all Sergey Nikiforovich Vasilenko (who?) experts! I doubt there are any Vasilenko experts here, but I've been amazed before, and am prepared to be amazed again.

In 1907-08 Vasilenko wrote an orchestral work called The Garden of Death, symphonic poem after Oscar Wilde, Op. 13. I’ve been trying to track down some information about its source, for Music based on the works of Oscar Wilde, but no luck. There's no poem or story of that name by Wilde - that I can find. It does sound like a title that Wilde might have come up with, and he did indeed use that expression, but not as the title of anything. Virginia, a character in the short story The Canterville Ghost, mentions "The Garden of Death" in her conversation with the eponymous ghost (Chapter 5), but it's never repeated and there's no explanation of it. That's the only connection with The Canterville Ghost that I can see. This site provides the text of a poem called "I'm Glad she was There", which includes the phrase "the garden of death", and claims it's from The Canterville Ghost. But that seems wrong on 2 counts: that poem doesn't appear in the text of the story; and imho it doesn't look remotely like anything that Oscar Wilde would have written.

And yet, here's another person who wrote a musical work called "The Garden of Death", which also claims to be a setting of words from The Canterville Ghost.

Apart from those two, the best I've come up with are various sites that assert Vasilenko's work is based on "a poem by Oscar Wilde", without saying what the poem is. Wilde's writings are replete with allusions to death, gardens and flowers, so Vasilenko's title may just be a generic nod in his direction. He didn't specify that it was named after any particular work of Wilde's, just "after Oscar Wilde".

But lo and behold! I discover Lord Alfred Douglas wrote a poem called "The Garden of Death". It's an unlikely phrase for two people so closely associated to have independently dreamed up, so I'm assuming one of them copied it from the other. I haven't tracked down when Douglas wrote his poem, so I don't know which person to name as the borrower.

Could Vasilenko have taken the title from Douglas's poem, but still have written his symphonic poem as a sort of tribute to Oscar Wilde? Given Wilde's and Douglas's association, it's not unreasonable. It's just that I've never heard of anything quite like this before – writing something in tribute to Person A but using a title that comes from Person B. It has echoes of "the love that dare not speak its name", an expression that has come to be very strongly associated with Oscar Wilde, but was in fact created, again, by Bosie Douglas.

Can anyone help me pin this down? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * As I know nothing about Horace Keats, almost nothing about music and just slightly more about Oscar Wilde, this seemed like the perfect Ref Desk question for me. Here I found the first line of Keats's song. The words are "Far away beyond the pine woods, there is a little garden". Interestingly, these are also exactly the opening words of the Ghost's description of the Garden of Death in chapter 5 of The Canterville Ghost. The description immediately precedes Virginia's use of the phrase "The Garden of Death". It is  not set like a poem, neither in the link above, nor in my copy of Collected Works of Oscar Wilde (Wordsworth Editions, 1997), but that is no barrier to a composer. I think you could safely add Keats's piece to your list, even though I can only find the one line, and it is otherwise unpublished. // BL \\ (talk) 22:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Mr Vasilenko's connection will be more difficult to demonstrate unless there are words in this "symphonic poem" to tie to the theme. I suppose there are academics who could make their professional reputation on "proving" such a link through the music alone, but we may be limited to what the composer has said he has done: written a piece of music drawn from Wilde's description of "The Garden of Death". And now, we turn this over to the experts. // BL \\ (talk) 23:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Bielle seems to be on the right track. Looking at Keats' sheet music etc, it seems he has set the words of the Canterville Ghost to music: turning prose into lyrics.  "Far beyond the pine woods there is a little garden. There the grass grows long and deep, there are the great white stars of the hemlock flower, there the nightingale sings all night long.  All night long he sings, and the cold, crystal moon looks down, and the yew-tree spreads out its giant arms over the sleepers." - a description Virginia identifies as "The Garden of Death".  Lord Alfred and Wilde undoubtedly inspired each other; perhaps one decided to expound on an idea created by another.  It's also a term you can find in other contexts: .  If Vasilenko credits Oscar Wilde with the idea ("after Oscar Wilde") then it seems the description also inspired him to music.  Gwinva (talk) 00:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Ladies, your thoughts make a lot of sense. Essentially, Douglas's poem is a red herring.  It may have given Wilde the idea of a "garden of death", but he was the one who chose to use that expression in The Canterville Ghost, and that's what the composers were focussing on.  Still, I'd love to find out when Douglas wrote his poem, to see if it preceded Wilde's story or came later.  Thanks.  --  JackofOz (talk) 11:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * According to Lord Alfred Douglas, Wilde and Douglas did not meet until 1891. The Canterville Ghost was first published as a newspaper serial in 1887, some 4 years prior to the meeting. It seems unlikely then that the phrase originated with Douglas. Douglas's poem "The Garden of Death" was published in 1899 by Grant Richards of London in a volume entitled The City of the Soul . I cannot be sure if that was either the first or the only published version, though more than one Ghit gives the date of 1899 for the poem. If I had to put up funds, mine would be on Wilde as the originator, in this case (but then I would have bet money on Wilde as the originator of "the love that dares not speak its name", and lost.) // BL \\ (talk) 04:17, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Bielle to the rescue. I've updated the article with those details.  Much obliged, Bielle.  --  JackofOz (talk) 00:36, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Easy places to emigrate to
Asking out of curiosity, are there any countries that let anyone emmigrate to themselves or become a pernament resident without formality? As a european I've come to realise how difficult it is for an American to do that here. 78.146.52.210 (talk) 21:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I've read that there are some countries in the Caribbean which effectively sell their citizenship by requiring a very large fee for processing applications. Try checking out Dominica, Guyana, Nicaragua and Suriname. In Europe, Switzerland used to have a reputation for giving citizenship to the very rich, but I believe that there you need to apply in a particular municipality and the local people then vote on your case. This is said to favour middle and upper-class Europeans (whether from Europe or elsewhere) over others. Xn4  ( talk ) 23:32, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Svalbard. 87.112.17.229 (talk) 23:58, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * If one has money, I think the US is probably easy too. I read somewhere that setting up enough money to start a company there, perhaps one million dollars, and hiring people, would get you automatic US citizenship. I have read about similar deals in many countries, formal rules or not. My experience is that changing country of residence without resorting to this sort of deal has become harder and harder. I do not think passports were needed to move between countries before WWI. As far as I can tell, borders between countries are continually solidifying, so whatever country may have been easy to move to a few years ago, may not be as easy today. DanielDemaret (talk) 02:24, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd expect that you could get into pretty much any country with enough money. Well, that and knowing the proper people to bribe. StuRat (talk) 02:49, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Back in 1990–3 I worked for an immigration lawyer in San Francisco. Clients included aliens who operated businesses here (not necessarily owners); so long as they were in business they qualified for an "E" visa, which was not a step toward citizenship.  (Unlike "H" it had no time limit.)  But I dimly remember there was at least a proposal that aliens (from only some countries?) who made a big enough investment would get a green card, which is a step toward citizenship.  —Tamfang (talk) 22:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Come to think of it, that deal may have been meant for people leaving Hong Kong in anticipation of the Communist takeover. —Tamfang (talk) 18:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say you could get into Somalia very easily. No bureaucratic red tape (among other things). Clarityfiend (talk) 05:53, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Literature: slim classics
I've just started reading Voltaire's Candide, only about 100 pages long. It is more amusing and has much more variety than I expected. (Edit - but as I read on, racist and very violent). So unlike the thick doorstopper stodge of over-long Thomas Hardy or Dickens novels (personal view - no offence meant). What other slim classics would people recommend? I can think of Laurence Sterne's A Sentimental Journey Through France and Italy, which must have a similar location in time and space. But I am interested in the whole range of literature from any place or time. 78.146.52.210 (talk) 21:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Winnie the Pooh? // BL \\ (talk) 21:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Jonathan Livingston Seagull -- SGBailey (talk) 22:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich? 160 pages including the intro though and opposite in form to the massive Gulag Archipelago. Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha at 119 pages. Another skinny classic: The Epic of Gilgamesh text itself (Penguin classics) is 58 pages. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:21, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The Great Gatsby and Goodbye Mr Chips are 144 and 128 pages respectively (in the basic editions available on Amazon). Gwinva (talk) 23:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The Sorrows of Young Werther is only about 145 pages long. L ANTZY T ALK 00:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Kafka's The Metamorphosis 87.112.17.229 (talk) 00:10, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Hemmingway's The Old Man and the Sea, Mishima's The Sailor Who Fell from Grace with the Sea, and the brilliant Charles Bukowski's Post Office. 87.112.17.229 (talk) 00:18, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Conrad's Heart of Darkness - 112pp. See also Novella and Novelette FYI. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:25, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Eugene Onegin, Pushkin. A "novel" novel for being written in verse (which makes it more engaging--you mention wanting variety]--this is no gimmick). –Outriggr § 01:33, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Byrne: A Novel, by Anthony Burgess, is slim, a novel, in verse, and better than at least half of the "classics" above. DuncanHill (talk) 01:47, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You might take a look at List of novellas. After a glance over my bookshelves, three slim volumes I can recommend are Nicholson Baker's The Mezzanine, Steven Millhauser's Enchanted Night, and Italo Calvino's Invisible Cities. But there are loads of small gems—even if you don't want to tackle Dickens's Bleak House, why not give The Haunted Man and the Ghost's Bargain a try? Deor (talk) 03:23, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The Time Machine by H.G. Wells comes immediately to mind. --Anonymous, 03:20 UTC, February 27, 2009.
 * Oh, and of course Lewis Carroll's two books, thin enough that they are now typically published as one, about Alice in Wonderland. --Anon, 03:21 UTC, Feb. 27.


 * The Stranger by Albert Camus is about 120 pages. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:25, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Another one I remember is Matsuo Basho The Narrow Road To The Deep North. 78.149.170.123 (talk) 13:44, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The Rum Diary... cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 14:40, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The Turn of the Screw (Henry James) and Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde (Robert Louis Stevenson). Gwinva (talk) 20:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Inherit the Wind, though not a novel in the strictest sense, is very short. Of Mice and Men is also rather short. I'd look up page totals for you but I'm at work and our internet sucks compared to at home.  Dismas |(talk) 11:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I know The Invention of Morel is a neat 100 pages because it's sitting right next to me, but I'm pretty sure all these are well under 200 pages: The Awakening, The Red Badge of Courage, Breakfast at Tiffany's, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, The War of the Worlds, Death in Venice, Siddhartha. Also, look into short stories. A good short story writer can say more in thirty pages than some people fit in a novels. --Fullobeans (talk) 19:51, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Jane Austen's Lady Susan is really short but not all people like epistolary novels. ;) --Cameron* 19:58, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Slim classics? Any individual book of the Bible. Depending on your definition, all of the New Testament put together. Dickens might surprise you with the relative brevity of A Christmas Carol. Kipling packed an overview of the foundation of Britain into Puck of Pook's Hill, and of course there is 1066 and All That for more abbreviated history. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Anything by William Shakespeare, my copy of Hamlet, his longest work, is only about 20 pages. Also short stories. those by Edgar Allen Poe are classics and well worth reading, as are Stephen Donaldson's, which will likely become classics when they are old enough, and the longest is only 100 pages. 148.197.114.165 (talk) 21:23, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Collected short stories of Saki or Lord Dunsany. Any novel by P. G. Wodehouse.  —Tamfang (talk) 02:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Juvenalia in general is not a bad bet, as kids tend not to drone on in black and white; in addition to the Austen works (e.g. Love and Friendship [sic]), there is the c. 1900 The Young Visiters [also sic], wickedly observant. Short stories in general are obvious candidates for brevity; top of my list for living writers would be Alice Munro. Don't overlook poetry -- many narrative poems are shorter than short stories, and deliver a punch; try Evangeline. And don't overlook non-fiction: a love story (love-of-books story) is told via letters in 84 Charing Cross Road; it's stretching the word "classic" but is short and wide-ranging.  To a certain extent, anything substantially old and still in print satisfies the definition of "a classic".  All the best. BrainyBabe (talk) 14:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Not to be confused with Juvenilia. —Tamfang (talk) 15:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Book by old-time, non-notable British author
Someone stashed a bunch of old books in their since sold holiday house – among them was a memoir of childhood that was well-written and interesting for the sociology of the family at the time (Britain, maybe London, early 1900s?). It was a poor, "working-class" anglo family: a clever brother, intellectual mother and more basic postman father. Both boys were very bright: his brother was an inventor and the writer taught himself to play piano as a child without the usual supports of money, opportunity or real pianos. I think he went on to academia or the public service (maybe both?). Don't have enough to find anything on him unless my googlefu is wilted, but I'm curious – anyone? Julia Rossi (talk) 21:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If has been published in britain then it should be in the online catalogue of the British Library. So any guesses about the date of publication, words in the title etc may help you narrow it down. It does sound a little like a memoir I once read, written in various parts. The book you have described might have been the earlier volume to what I read. The names "Church" or "Peter" come to mind, but these might just be memory-noise. Edit: the author I was thinking of was Richard Church. He wrote a number of autobiographical books, one of which was called The Voyage Home. Looking at the British Library Catalogue, there are 34 books published in english between 1900 and 1960 with the word autobiography in the title, and 29 with the word memoir. But it might not have these words in the title. 89.242.103.68 (talk) 13:37, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Eureka! "Yet Richard Church (b. 1893), the son of a postman, raised and educated in south London..." He wrote several autobiographical books including "Over The Bridge, an Essay In Autobiography", "The Golden Sovereign", and others. See Richard Church (poet). 89.242.103.68 (talk) 17:20, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You are a star! Thanks so much for your fine googlefu and resourcefulness. Not so non-notable after all, oops. :) Julia Rossi (talk) 21:52, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Episcopal shield (Image) vs Anglican shield
Is there a difference between the Episcopal Shield symbol and the Anglican Shield symbol and what is the history please.Gordon Oscar (talk) 22:19, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know about their history, but they are almost the same. Both are based on the St George's cross (most familiar in the flag of England, also seen in the flag of Georgia), and both have a field azure (blue) in the cross's first quarter, but whereas the Anglican shield has on that a Chi Rho argent (silver), the Episcopal shield has on it a saltire of small Greek crosses argent. I guess the second has more resonances with the flag of the United States, but this is only a guess. I have also seen a version of the Anglican shield with a mitre over the crossed keys of St Peter on that field azure, which I guess applies to the Anglo-Catholic wing of the Anglican communion. If anyone knows whether any of these have been granted by the College of Arms, I'd be interested to hear. Xn4  ( talk ) 23:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This page (referenced in our article Episcopal Church (United States)), explains the significance of the number and arrangement of the crosses in the Episcopal Shield's first quarter. I can't vouch for its accuracy, though. Deor (talk) 02:54, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Teddy Bear DJ comic
Ok, I once saw a comic/cartoon of a Teddy Bear as a DJ holding a broken record. Really loved that image, but am completely unable to find it. I think it was created by an artist from San Francisco, but that's about all the more I know. Any help locating it would be greatly appreciated (been Googling all day but to no avail.) Thanks! Xous (talk) 22:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The best I can do is a monkey (this is my sly way of saying that I tried googling too, and this was the best I came up with) Belisarius (talk) 06:15, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * http://dom-productions.ovh.org/files2/Winnie-the-DJ-(cartoon)-Dominique-Bray.jpg -- SGBailey (talk) 07:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * This?  meltBanana  15:38, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes! Thank you!Xous (talk) 17:49, 27 February 2009 (UTC)