Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 February 7

= February 7 =

Youth and Young Manhood
Hello. I need a few thousand words on the nature of youth, boyhood, casual rebellion, indolent pleasures, and the like. It will be an element in a picture. I'm thinking of classic works of literature, but it's late and I can't think of anything relevant. Does anyone have any suggestions? When I say youth I mean early twenties, and from any type of literature you like. It will need to be on the net somewhere so I can copy and paste it. Any quotation will do, step right up.

Thanks 80.229.160.127 (talk) 01:44, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "Early twenties"? a protracted adolescence down at your end, indeed. You need to look into the index to Bartlett's Familiar Quotations, espcially under "callow" and "indolent". --Wetman (talk) 08:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Not knowing the culture and historical period to which your text refers, let me point out that "youth" is rather a stretch to refer to:
 * "boyhood" (= childhood, ends at about 12 but may include teenage - the age in which you'd say this is a "boy"),
 * adolescence ("teenage," till the age of majority, ca. 18-20) AND
 * "early twenties."
 * For example, the quality or practice of indolence rather than industry in a schoolage boy is quite another thing than someone whose age peers are already expected to be out and earning their living. I agree with Wetman in the prolonged adolescence of a society in which post-high school studies are common and extend into one's early or mid-20s might be to the point. Also your request is unclear: you seek "a few thousand words" in one quotation, or several together? -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I am thinking probably of bildungsroman literature, and seeking specifically prose where the author meditates of the nature of youth itself. Several quotations to make up the length will be fine. Let's say something pertinent to ages 15-25, male for preference. 80.229.160.127 (talk) 19:21, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * You may want to poke your nose into The Magic Mountain by Thomas Mann, which is both a Bildungsroman and a satire of this genre. On a completely different level you could read the great "Schelmenroman", The Tin Drum.   --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:15, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Not sure if The Beautiful Boy might be of any interest. Some of the links or articles may lead somewhere.91.111.67.60 (talk) 23:04, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * There are shedloads of examples in The Picture of Dorian Gray. Eg: "But we never get back our youth. The pulse of joy that beats in us at twenty becomes sluggish. Our limbs fail, our senses rot. We degenerate into hideous puppets, haunted by the memory of the passions of which we were too much afraid, and the exquisite temptations that we had not the courage to yield to. Youth! Youth! There is absolutely nothing in the world but youth!"  The whole thing is online at .  Ka renjc 00:18, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Maksim Gorky wrote a three volume autobiography: Childhood, My Apprenticeship, My Universities. About his tough impoversihed upbringing in Russia before the Revolution. I enjoyed reading Childhood, I intend to read the others. I expect the title "My Universities" is probably ironic. Probably all available online somewhere if you search. 89.243.214.67 (talk) 23:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * There is also Portrait Of The Artist As A Young Man by James Joyce, also try Against Nature A Rebours by Joris-Karl Huysmans. See also the idea of decadence, although the Wikipedia article about this is badly written in my opinion. 78.146.105.198 (talk) 00:18, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Law : Appellant's Costs
A Judgment delivered by the Law Lords of the Privy Council in London ends as follows :- " In all the circumstances, their Lordships consider that this appeal should be allowed, and the respondent should pay the appellant's costs".

This was the operative part of a verdict in an appeal for severance allowance at punitive rate from appellant living in a British Commonwealth country. No figure was quoted at all in Judgment.

In the beginning of the Judgment the Law Lords quoted the principal sum mentioned in the initial plaint that was lodged in court immediately after the dismissal. The initial appeal document contained all relevant detailed figures.

I shall like to have expert explanations regarding the verdict and the difference between " appellant's costs" and "costs".

Pravesham (talk) 13:35, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * This is about the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. The appellant's costs are simply the costs of the appellant. The costs would need to be assessed - see Costs (English law). Xn4  ( talk ) 14:07, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Is it just me, or does it seem a little unfair for the respondent to pay the appellant's costs? There wouldn't be any costs if the judge/jury hadn't got it wrong in the first place - they should pay the costs... --Tango (talk) 15:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * There was a piece in the Wall Street Journal's opinion pages about this in the last few months. In America each side is responsible for its own legal costs.  In Britain, IIRC, the loser pays the winner's costs.  The WSJ of course endorsed this scheme in the interest of stopping frivolous lawsuits against corporations.  (It would also stop nearly all lawsuits against corporations, frivolous or not, but that's not their concern.)  Tempshill (talk) 03:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm familiar with that distinction and I support the British system for the original trial. My question was about the cost of appeal - if an appeal is successful that means the original court got it wrong, why should the person filing the suit have to pay extra because of that? --Tango (talk) 23:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This is Bissonauth v Sugar Fund Insurance Bond [2007] UKPC 17. In the first instance (i.e. the first time the case was heard), we had Mr. Bissonauth - who was at this point known as 'the claimant' - taking his employer, Sugar Fund Insurance Bond - who was 'the respondent' - to what was basically an employment tribunal, saying that it was unlawful for them to sack him, or at least in the way they did (to put it simply). Mr. Bissonauth lost the case in this first instance. He then appealed to the Mauritius Supreme Court. At this point Mr. Bissonauth was known as 'the appellant' and Sugar Fund Insurance Bond was 'the respondent'. At the Supreme Court their honours ruled in favour of one of Mr. Bissonauth's claims but not others. Mr. Bissonauth appealed to the Privy Council of the United Kingdom on one particular point. At this point Mr. Bissonauth was still 'the appellant' and Sugar Fund Insurance Bond was still 'the respondent', as Mr. Bissonauth was appealing aganst the Supreme Court decision. The Privy Council ruled in Mr. Bissonauth's favour on this particular point. Because this is a civil case there is no jury at any point (there are only a few exceptions to this rule). The appeals (as appeals most usually are) were first about how the first instance court (in this case essentially an employment tribunal before a magistrate) and then the appeal court (in this case the Mauritian Supreme Court before a Judge and Puisne Judge) interpreted the relevant law and applied it. The reason that the Privy Council ordered Sugar Fund Insurance Bond to pay Mr. Bissonauth's costs is because, in effect, he had had to pay many thousands of rupees in legal costs to go all the way through the court system until the UK Privy Council finally came up with the 'right' decision and if Sugar Fund Insurance Bond has acted according to the relevant employment law in the first place he would not have needed to spend all that money. Hope this helps. --JoeTalkWork 01:47, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Case on Partition
May I launch a case agniast partition of any nation?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.95.154.33 (talk) 16:26, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * What do mean by "partition"? --Tango (talk) 17:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Partition was the name of the process of creating Pakistan and India out of British colonial India, and UNGA 181 is known as the partition plan resolution... AnonMoos (talk) 22:21, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That's the only type of partition I could think of, as well, but the question doesn't seem make sense. Why would you want to make a case against the partition of nations where nobody has proposed partition? Unless the OP means a general case, which I guess makes most sense. Either way, this doesn't seem to be appropriate for the ref desk - we're not a debating society. --Tango (talk) 22:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * A working UNGA 181 link is here. --Dr Dima (talk) 03:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * In answer to the OP's question, you could only "launch a case" in the nation's own courts if it had a court with the jurisdiction to consider your case and if you had the necessary standing for it to hear you. In some countries, there is a Constitution which is guaranteed by a Supreme Court or by a Constitutional Court, and if a country's government were to decide to partition the country in a way which were made unlawful by the Constitution, then you might be able to begin proceedings to challenge the decision, but in such an event the government would probably by then have taken some action to change the country's Constitution. As a matter of international law, it would be quite different. There isn't an international court which guarantees the territorial integrity of "nations". Indeed, the definition of what is a "nation" has always been problematical. In the case of the Partition of India, see Two Nation Theory. Xn4  ( talk ) 22:27, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Bangladeshi Islamic Magazines
Is there any magazines in Bangladesh that talks about Islam? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.54.36 (talk) 16:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Bangladesh Islamic Centre has a bunch of links and sources. --Omidinist (talk) 17:00, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Place de la Concorde obelisk
I'm interested in the obelisk of the Place de la Concorde in Paris. It originally stood in front of the Luxor temple in Egypt and I would like to know when it was erected. Now, I know what you're going to tell me, that it was built by Ramses II. Okay, but the guy reigned between 1279 and 1213 BC-- one of the longest reigns in history. Does someone know a more precise date ? I've skimmed through the books at my library and didn't find an answer, so I thought several heads are better than one. Have a nice day, Rosenknospe (talk) 18:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * A-ha ! Looks like I've found the question you can't answer ! :p Rosenknospe (talk) 13:24, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah. Didn't see that gauntlet lying there. Yup, you got me. I did poke around in the recent journals for an update on the dating of the obelisk, but no luck. I'm assuming you checked the existing literature thoroughly enough. I would imagine that the best chance we have of getting a firm date on something like that would be if the Egyptians had actually carved a date on it, but if they had we'd have known a long time ago. I found it interesting that its sister obelisk (a good book title, that, Sister Obelisk) is not the same size, which suggests that they were not designed as a set, that they are not the same age, and that one or both of them were moved to the temple from their original sites, possibly recarved. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a day, month, and year, or even a year. --Milkbreath (talk) 15:34, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the effort. You're probably right, if we knew I would have found the date, but as our Egyptology department is not exactly blooming (its only claim to fame being the statue of Ramses in the Great Hall), I just thought I'd check. Still I learnt something, I didn't notice Obelix had a sister :D Rosenknospe (talk) 08:57, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

WWII Aerial photos
Are aerial recconaissance photographs taken of Britain by the Luftwaffe during World War II, published and unpublished, still subject to copyright? If so who would be likely to own such copyright?

Thanks in advance. 62.6.252.139 (talk) 21:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The copyright situation of Nazi state generated stuff is complicated, if I recall... they are inherited by the successor states, but are rarely claimed... this discussion pertains to exactly this sort of thing. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 21:17, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I hthought it might be complex - thanks for the link - it kind of helps.
 * On a similar theme, does anyone know the copyright status of photos taken by the Allied forces (ie offical photos, not personal snaphots)? Does this depend on whether they have already been published? Thanks once again. 94.196.76.194 (talk) 11:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I saw a news item a few years ago titled "Luftwaffe saves village green from landowner" which told how WW2 German aerial photos were used to dispute a landowner's claim that part of the village green had always been part of his estate and he was entitled to take it back. The photos showed that the land in question had not been enclosed by his estate during the war. Someone certainly had access to the photo archives. Edison (talk) 22:13, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Does Poland have an 'official' national bird?
Does Poland have an 'official' national bird? If so, is it the White Eagle like the one on the Coat of arms of Poland or is it the White Stork? Does anyone have a reliable source for this? OlEnglish (talk) 23:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I already answered this question at Talk:Coat of arms of Poland, so I'll just copy-paste here:
 * There is no particular species of bird that is generally recognized, let alone legally indicated, as a national bird. A concept of national bird, animal, flower, etc. doesn't really exist in Poland. The White Eagle is a heraldic symbol which is a different thing than a national bird.
 * I just looked at List of national birds and saw that it listed the white-tailed eagle as Poland's national bird. I promptly deleted this bit as nonsense.
 * As for sources, it might be difficult to find sources about something that doesn't exist. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 11:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I've always found the 'state flower', 'state bird' and so on, appointed by various US states a rather quaint and amusing concept. I don't recall having come across the idea in Europe. --ColinFine (talk) 23:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never come across it either, nor do I have any idea what it is meant to mean. --Tango (talk) 23:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Some of them have a "state soil", fertile ground for jokes I should think. DuncanHill (talk) 07:32, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Dirty jokes I'd bet :) OlEnglish (talk) 02:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

arab city neighbourhood
I notice that Beirut and Baghdad have nieghbourhoods that consist either one or two religious groups, such as one nieghbourhood in Beirut or Baghdad consist of Sunni Muslims only, one nieghbourhood in Beirut or Baghdad consist of Shi'a Muslims only, one nieghbourhood in Beirut or Baghdad consist of Christians, one nieghbourhood in Beirut or Baghdad consist of Sunni Muslims and Christians together and such. Are Beirut and Baghdad the only Arab cities that have such neighbourhoods consisting of only one or more religious groups? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.117.167 (talk) 23:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The old city of Jerusalem is traditionally divided into the Jewish quarter, the Christian quarter, the Muslim quarter, and the Armenian quarter. Having different districts for different non-Muslim groups was traditionally quite common, but I'm not sure how common residential segregation for different groups within Islam was until the 20th century... AnonMoos (talk) 01:15, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It is indeed quite common for large Middle Eastern cities to have been divided into ethnic or religious quarters. A few other famous examples are Cairo, which has a Coptic neighbourhood; Damascus with a Christian quarter; Istanbul, which has traditional Greek, Armenian and Albanian neighbourhoods; and Fes which has a Jewish quarter. However, most of these historical neighbourhoods had lost their specificity beginning in the early 20th century. It is traumatic events, such as the Lebanese Civil War and the occupation of Iraq which have rekindled segregation. That is most dramatic in Baghdad, in which neighbourhood that were mixed before 2003 have now been almost entirely segregated in the past five years, as a result of ethnic cleansing. --Xuxl (talk) 15:31, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Often in these cases, homogenous religious groups would be seperate in different rural areas, and these divisions would be all brought into the city during urbanisation, so the same homogenous groups now live next door to each other. Happens with ethnic groups too. Remember of course that many societies are not as secularised as the West (for better or for worse). Furthermore, during urbanisation families tend to follow people they know to the cities, and live near them, and they are likely to be of the same religion as the people they followed there. SGGH ping! 15:32, 11 February 2009 (UTC)