Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 July 29

= July 29 =

Death sentence
What are the advantages of a death sentence in our morden society?. Peaseacom (talk) 07:37, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a homework question to me. Go read Capital punishment debate, there is a lot of food for thought there.  But the point is that you should be thinking up your own answers to this question.  And by the way, it's "modern". --Richardrj talkemail 07:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) Perhaps you should ask the good people of Morden.--Shantavira|feed me 07:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean ask Mr. Morden of course ;). 67.117.147.249 (talk) 17:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * A handy source of soylent green? -- Jayron  32  11:23, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It's worth noting that the question itself is rather biased. Something like "advantages and disadvantages" or "arguments for and against" might be a little more neutral. Whose "modern society" it actually is might be worth asking (it's a "modern society" primarily made up of China, the United States, and various Islamic-law countries). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 17:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't agree it's biased. Are you so insecure about the question that you will not concede that it is possible that it lends a single advantage to society?  Tempshill (talk) 20:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, the question is biased - asking only for advantages, if only for the implicit assumption in the question that such advantages certainly exist. A question asking only "What are the disadvantages" would be equally biased, in the opposite direction.  Noting those biases doesn't suggest insecurity, or personal belief one way or the other --Saalstin (talk) 22:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

The main advantage of the death penalty would be if it had a significant deterrent effect against serious crimes, but research conducted in developed countries hasn't generally found much major direct deterrent effects of this kind. In a number of U.S. states, the death penalty very disproportionately affects members of ethnic/racial minorities who are too poor to hire good lawyers at the original trial, so the death penalty might have a minimal deterrent effect on anyone who doesn't fall into that category... AnonMoos (talk) 22:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Even if it's not really an effective "detergent to crime" (apologies to Archie Bunker), it serves the purpose of permanent removal. In the days when you would get a fair trial and be hanged shortly thereafter, it was rather cheaper than life imprisonment, and ensured the murderer would never harm anyone again. However, with the length of time nowadays between sentencing and execution, it is no longer cost-effective. And there are prisons that are virtually escape-proof, effecting the goal of permanent removal. So from the societal standpoint, there is really no longer any practical advantage to capital punishment. However, there are psychological benefits. One is the good feeling a lot of folks got when thoroughly evil characters like John Wayne Gacy and Ted Bundy were finally put to death. And there's the flip side of that, that it's arguably a mercy killing for someone beset with demons. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Even with ludicrous modern delays,it's cheaper than imprisonment for a true life sentence.hotclaws 00:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

how many members of the upper class are there?
Approximately how many members of the Upper Class are there total worldwide? (not "upper middle class"). I don't just mean the few hundred or thousand "ultrarich" as tracked by Forbes, but all of the "upper class" (but again not the "upper middle class").

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.234.207.120 (talk) 08:37, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It all depends on your definition of the upper class. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're talking about the rich, there were 8,600,000 millionaires according to a 2008 study . Doing it on the basis of aristocracy or nobility is almost impossible: it might make some sense in western Europe (where the number of Counts, Dukes, Princes, etc, is more or less clearly defined, though counting their children and relatives might be more problematic), but would you count tribal chiefs in third-world countries as upper class, and do countries without a nobility (like the USA or as far as I know China) have no upper class? --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 11:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Counts and dukes aside, the upper class is the governing class, the privileged class who select which candidates will run for office in democracies are able to get the law made to favor their interests or bent in their favor, and do not depend on standing within a corporation for their clout. As a percentage of the population, the upper class varies culture to culture, rarely more than 5 to 10 per cent.--Wetman (talk) 18:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That is one definition, it isn't the only one. In the UK "upper class" and "rich and powerful" are not synonymous. Class depends on background, wealth and power are personal. There is often a strong correlation between the two, of course. The upper class in the UK is far less than 10%, probably less than 1%, and I think that is the case in most cultures that have something broadly equivalent to the Western European class system. --Tango (talk) 21:04, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Equivalent to unparliamentary language in US
Do the US House and Senate have equivalent rules to those on unparliamentary language? (e.g. a prohibition on calling people liars). I ask because I've seen some clips of the healthcare reform debate. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:56, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "Unparliamentary language" is forbidden in the House of Representatives. Although House rules don't spell out what constitutes unparliamentary language, this page of a GOP primer on House protocol gives some examples. I assume the Senate has a similar unwritten policy. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 17:06, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah. Thanks. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 20:43, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Humour in the Bible
Are there any examples of jokes or humour in the Bible? A passage or sentence that is intended to be amusing. Thanks, --Richardrj talkemail 09:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's what Uncle Cecil has to say on the matter. I got this through a simple google search.  Feel free to check out some of these links, or alter the terms of the search to include words like "humor" (or "humour" if you have the british penchant for extraneous "u"s).  -- Jayron  32  11:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Humour is highly dependent on culture and language. Any Biblical wit is likely to have been lost through generations of translators and editors. However, I have often seen God's treatment of Abraham and Adam and Eve interpreted in TV sketches as though they were cruel jokes. And Genesis 27:11 is sometimes quoted (Alan Bennett?) for laughs merely because it contains the words "hairy" and "smooth".--Shantavira|feed me 12:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The start of 1 Samuel 24is one such case where, if interpreted the right way, is a very funny scene that gets totally lost in trasnlation. Saul is chasing David, then goes into a cave to cover his feet, at which time David cuts off the hem of his garment. Well, one interpretation of the phrase "cover his feet" is to go to the bathroom, specifically number two. It gives a comical image when seen that way, though more so to the teenage crowd.Somebody or his brother (talk) 13:46, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

" אִם-יִשֹּׁךְ הַנָּחָשׁ, בְּלוֹא-לָחַשׁ; וְאֵין יִתְרוֹן, לְבַעַל הַלָּשׁוֹן" may be interpreted in several different ways. What it literally says is "if the snake bites without whisper, there is no advantage for the capable-of-speech". --Dr Dima (talk) 16:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ecclesiastes is full of it with his own brand of sarcasm:
 * The labour of the foolish wearieth every one of them, because he knoweth not how to go to the city. (10:15)
 * If the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be. (11:3)
 * If the snake should bite before it is charmed, the snake charmer is in trouble. (10:11) --Olaf Simons (talk) 13:55, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This translation of the Ecclesiastes 10:11 is indeed hilarious, but possibly incorrect. The original
 * I envy you for being able to read the original text. --Olaf Simons (talk) 21:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * When Sarah overhears Abraham being assured that she'll have a child, she has a good laugh over the pleasure she'll get from sex with her decrepit hubby.

And there's a bitter piece of snark from Job, when confronted by his sanctimonious, know-it-all friends: "No doubt that ye are the people, and wisdom hath died with ye".
 * Plenty of wordplay in the Hebrew Bible. And Jesus was frequently quite witty. That 'render unto Caesar' comeback xas pretty snappy! Rhinoracer (talk) 14:06, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * In Genesis 18 Abraham's market-place haggling with God over how many righteous men it would take to save Sodom always seemed like a hoot. What if there are 50 good men? Then eventually he haggles God down to a mere 10. Perhaps the greater humor is God knowing that there are not even 10. Never haggle with the omniscient. Edison (talk) 14:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I got the impression that God was waiting for Abraham to talk him down to one. Oh well. —Tamfang (talk) 03:41, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Some scholars think that the Book of Jonah is satire and intentionally funny, especially the last chapter. Same with the Book of Esther. Wrad (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd say so, but it's not exactly Richard Blackwoodesque. Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are riddled with biting irony. Many of the early biblical characters are given punning names by their parents. There's other irony too... Haman is hanged on the gallows he prepared for Mordechai or when the mocking soldier who disbelieves that the siege of Samaria will end in plenty is told he'll see it but not enjoy it. The closest I can think of to the kind of humour the OP was probably thinking of, ends rather badly, when Elisha is taunted for being bald - look it up and think twice the next time you heckle a divinely inspired person! --Dweller (talk) 15:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This one might be apocryphal: Moses comes down from the mountain. He says, I've got some good news and some bad news. The good news is, I got Him down to ten. The bad news is, adultery is still one of them. --jpgordon:==( o ) 20:06, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not exactly humor, but I like Judges Chapter 3, in which the Israelite Ehud, supposedly bearing gifts for the ruling king of Moab, tells the king, "I have a secret message for you." The king orders everyone else to leave, and then Ehud says, "I have a message from God" and stabs the king to death. Straight out of Hollywood. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 21:13, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The "camel/rope through the eye of the needle" pun was probably quite groanworthy in the early AD. Steewi (talk) 01:08, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * At the feeding of the multitude, there were 12 baskets full of scraps. Guess who'll carry them.-- Lenticel ( talk ) 01:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

When Moses asked God what His name was, and God said, "I am that I am", that was His way of saying, "Wouldn't you like to know!" I expect God found that rather funnier than Moses did. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Publius Cornelius Scipio Nasica Serapio
In the above article it talks of one Serapio, a dealer in sacrificial victims. Can you expand on this about a "dealer"? Is there further information on Serapio someplace? What else did he deal in? Suspect he was involved in the indigo trade in the ancient city of Thyatira. Cann't find him. Does Plutarch, Polybius, or Livy talk of him?--Doug Coldwell talk 21:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Since a sacrificial victim had to satisfy certain characteristics (it had to be "prefect"). of which the details are obscure to me, it makes sense that in Rome you could go to a specialist and ask for "a pig suitable to Ceres" or a cockerel for the auspex.--Wetman (talk) 22:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * When would frankincense be used? Does the name Serapio have a meaning?--Doug Coldwell talk 23:42, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * A pinch of frankincense was the ordinary gesture of respect, the one that Christians were martyred for refusing. A sacrifical victim, commonly a piglet or lamb, was a gesture for those who could afford it on special occasions.--Wetman (talk) 19:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Associated Press flashes
Associated Press "flashes" are very rare. They put out one when Obama was elected and ones when each of the Twin Towers collapsed. Two went out on the day of JFK's assassination.

Does anyone know what other events have generated flashes from the AP? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:50, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Over what time span? Per "Breaking news"(2007) by David Halberstam and Reporters of the Associated Press and a Google Book search, the AP has issued flashes (5 bells on the Teletype or modern equivalent: advisories of ten words or less that break into other transmissions to warn that a breaking story is coming) for wins in prize fights, the resignation of baseball managers, the dynamiting of a newspaper office, Lindbergh crossing the Atlantic, any significant event in war or politics, state or or U.S. Supreme Court decisions, trial verdicts,  arrests of criminals, an air raid alert in San Francisco in WW2, death of notable persons, natural disasters, even the arrest of a member of the Rolling Stones.  Edison (talk) 02:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you have a flash confused with an AP NewsAlert. NewsAlerts are short advisories that let subscribers know of a breaking story. A flash is any story given an "f" priority code. (Other priority codes are "b" for bulletin, "u" for urgent, "r" for regular and so on.) All the flashes I've ever seen have been very short, like NewsAlerts. In fact, a NewsAlert can also be a flash. When Michael Jackson died, the NewsAlert was a flash, raising some eyebrows. NewsAlerts occur regularly, but according to the AP Stylebook, flashes are to be reserved for events of "transcendent importance."
 * The Halberstam book mentions the following flashes: WWI armistice, Lindbergh baby verdict, man on the moon, death of President Harding, bombing of Pearl Harbor, JFK shot, Korea armistice, Hindenburg explosion and some others not in the Google Books preview. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 05:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I cited a reference, and stand by how the Halberstam/AP book defined a "flash." The ones I cited were specifically listed as AP flashes. That is how they went out, despite any recent guide you may have found. Many that I cited preceded the first (1953) AP Stylebook. Go argue with Halberstam and the AP. "Transcendant importance?????" Per the Google Book search results, there was a "flash" when Casey Stengal resigned as a baseball coach and when Keith Richards was arrested. Not all that "transcendent." Edison (talk) 02:11, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to argue with you, but this is how "flash" is defined in the glossary of Halberstam's book (page 20): "News alert of transcendent importance, consisting of a few words and followed immediately by a publishable bulletin series. Very few flashes have been sent by AP; two were sent within two hours, however, on 9/11 -- one when each tower fell." The term "transcendent importance" comes right from the "filing practices" section of the AP Stylebook, which says under "FLASHES": "File a flash only to report a development of transcendent importance. A flash should followed immediately by a publishable bulletin." I searched the Google Books preview of Halberstam's book for the word "flash," and the list above is what I came up with. My guess is that the authors of the books mentioning Keith Richards and Casey Stengal were using the word "flash" loosely to mean "a breaking news story" and were not aware of the official AP definition of a flash, which is what I am referring to in my question. It's also possible that the AP moves flashes on its s-wire (sports) or f-wire (finance) in addition to it's a-wire (general news). I'd only be interested in flashes moving on the a-wire. Incidentally, this page says the AP invented the flash in 1906. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You are giving too much credence to a modern usage guide, and ignoring what were AP "flashes" in the past. If they only "invented the flash in 1906," then why does the AP Service Bulletin from September 15, 1904, listed in my Google Book Search above, say (page 10) about the blowing up of a newspaper office in 1904: "Time of explosion 1:07 A.M., Associated Press Flash 1:09, Bulletin 1:12." The recent AP book is incorrect, according to the earlier AP book. Also the Relief of Ladysmith in 1900 was announced by the AP with "a seven word flash" followed by a substantial advance written story story with the breaking news at the top per . From 1904 here is a description of a newspaper office getting ready to put the paper to bed at 2 am, and the editor says he needs a "flash for the front page," meaning some dramatic news event that will get people to buy the paper. The AP telegraph operator (no Teletype) is copying dreary news about Washington, when AP breaks with news of a train wreck. A bit later, wreck details come in. Still later the names of the dead. Then the transmission goes back to finishing the long political story which was interrupted by the wreck coverage. Apparently in 1904 "flash" literally meant that a short message broke into a long story to let the subscribers know a bulletin was coming, so they might delay printing the paper  for a bit, to get a juicy front page item. Perhaps AP later codified past actual practice into the rule book. The Keith Richards "flash: . That one is not cited to AP so maybe it was really a lesser grade of alert. Circus fire flash: . Does the local paper decide it is an AP flash, as in the circus fire and the 1904 dynamiting of a newspaper office with fatalities, or some desk jockey in New York? Here  is a 1913 discussion of wire service "flashes," buletins, etc. The Halberstam book says that December 7, 1941 the AP chief in Hawaii called the AP in California with the information that at least 5 Japanese planes were dropping bombs near Honolulu, then the military cut off phone communications. The information did not leave the office in California, and the news was delayed over an hour. Here is a report of the AP flash announcing Franklin Roosevelt's death: .  says there were World War 2 flashes for the fall of Rome, then for the Germans announcing DDay. [http://books.google.com/books?id=Th71H3sIlbkC&am

White people by country
How do Germany and the Nordic countries compare to Canada in terms of the percentage of white people? Neon Merlin  23:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * We have articles like Demographics of Germany and Demographics of Canada which may be of use to you. It should be noted, however, that not all countries tabulate census data using such nebulous qualities as "race" and "skin color", so in countries where these are not significant social factors, the data may not exist.  In the U.S., where they ARE significant social factors, that sort of information is tabulated, but there is no guarantee that a) such numbers are kept in every country and b) where they are kept, definitions such as what constitutes a "white person" may vary greatly from place to place.  -- Jayron  32  23:31, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments removed. --Bongwarrior (talk) 07:55, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * For an example, Immune, the US Census Bureau (see Race and ethnicity in the United States Census) counts Indians and Arabs as Asian and White respectively. Nyttend (talk) 05:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Which is why race is so nebulous a concept. Many south-asians are closer genetically related to Lithunians than are neighboring Estonians, and yet few people would say that Lithuanians and Estonians are not both "white" while they would also not classify most Indians as "white".  Yet, there it is.  Still, skin-color-based "races" are real 'social' constructs (even if they have no basis in genetics) in some countries, but not all.  That's why the original question would likely be impossible to answer.  -- Jayron  32  05:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * For my purposes, a white person is someone of mostly Germanic and/or Jewish ethnicity. (Weren't the Franks, Romans and Anglo-Saxons ultimately Germanic?) Neon  Merlin  05:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That's kind of specific, and not all that great of a classification. I mean, aren't the Irish white people?  They aren't in the least bit Germanic.  What about Italians?  And how can you lump Jews in with Germanic peoples; Jews aren't even indoeuropean; their a semitic group.  Seriously, find a workable demographic category first, then decide how to research it.  -- Jayron  32  05:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Nit: the red hair gene probably got to Ireland from Scandinavia. —Tamfang (talk) 03:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The Romans were Germanic? Mama mia! I've only ever heard that claim in Victorian literature and white supremacist sites of the Nordic flavour. Also, why exclude slavs? Fribbler (talk) 08:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. German and / or Jewish = White? One's a nationality, the second a religion (would you have considered Sammy Davis, Jr. 'white'?) and the third an ethnic classification. What's the point here? DOR (HK) (talk) 07:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)