Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 July 31

= July 31 =

Why universities are bad
I have been doing research on why universities on bad. I know that is completely a matter of opinion and I have no interest on why anyone here thinks they are good or bad. What I am looking for is research on how the fundamental structure of distinct courses with one professor and dozens of students fails to educate efficiently. I have a lot of papers and books I've been reading, but I've found that when people ask for references here, the users turn up a lot of stuff that isn't readily available on Google or the local library. The more I have to read, the more well-rounded my research in this topic will be. -- k a i n a w &trade; 01:01, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Define what you mean by "bad" and "fail to educate efficiently". By what standard or threshhold? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 16:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If you have already decided on the conclusion, why bother with the research? 67.117.147.249 (talk) 02:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It is normal to begin with a hypothesis, test the hypothesis, and then decide if the hypothesis is correct or not. My hypothesis is that having one professor and many students is not efficient.  I can test it my creating my own university and having half the classes taught one way and the other half taught a different way.  However, I do not have the income to create my own university.  So, I am limited to reading about the work done by others on this topic.  From there, I can decide if my hypothesis is correct enough to go further.  Of course, you may disagree with this entire process and demand that the whole testing of the hypothesis is a waste of time.  That is your opinion.  I feel that a hypothesis is rather useless without further research. --  k a i n a w &trade; 03:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * However, it depends on your methodology and whether or not your hypothesis is truly testable. A hypothesis like "Does mixing these two chemicals produce this predicted third chemical" is easily testable.  One like "Does XXXX suck" isn't really testable because it is subject to easy confirmation bias.  If you go in assuming that Universities are bad from the outset, you are coloring your search for sources.  You are more likely to find sources which confirm your bias than not, so you've basically poisoned the well in setting up your research.  Asking a neutral question like "What are some factors that affect the quality of post-secondary education" or even "What are some alternatives to the standard University model and how well do they work?" would be far better starting points.  Once you start with a question "Are all universities bad?", then you aren't remaining neutral in your research, and are not going to produce valid results.  -- Jayron  32  04:12, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no need to interrogate the guy about his research methods. You don't even know what the end result of what he's trying to accomplish. APL (talk) 14:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "X is not efficient" isn't really a testable hypothesis. You need "X is less efficient than Y". --Tango (talk) 18:28, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "...a lot of stuff that isn't readily available on Google or the local library." Have you tried a university library? :-) APL (talk) 14:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * By "local library", I actually meant the University library. I work at two universities.  One is medical, so nothing there is useful in this area.  The other is an engineering university.  I got a very good start there.  I've spent the last three months reading studies on teaching methods that have been used as an alternative to lectures and grouping them by similarity - creating a sort of semantic graph of how the methods relate to one another and the results they produce.  The graph is looking good, but I'd like to have more substance by including as many studies as I can find. --  k a i n a w &trade; 18:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A good starting point would be that if the university in question has no library, that's bad. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 23:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Try a cost-benefit analysis. Is the cost of any university education repaid by higher earnings during the course of a normal working career, or is the cost higher than the expected income differential with an equally competent person who did not attend any university? I suspect you’ll find that there is some university education, somewhere, that isn’t worth the money. Bachelor of Arts in underwater basket weaving, vs. a plumber or auto mechanic, perhaps? Of course, you may have to attend a university to be able to undertake said cost-benefit analysis. . . DOR (HK) (talk) 07:39, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * If you conduct research on how universities are bad, it is highly likely that you will come to the conclusion that universities are bad. If you fail to spot the flaw in this approach, you may not have been sufficiently educated. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * However, if you conduct research into methods used to improve faults in universities and spend all of your time reading about how perfect universities are, you will never find methods used to improve faults. Then, you can never test those methods.  Then, you can never write a paper that compares those methods.  Then, you will appear to be rather uneducated because you listened to people on Wikipedia who were more concerned with bashing a research topic than providing references for the research. --  k a i n a w &trade; 14:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Is the irukandji jellyfish so dangerous?
Some people consider them even worse than sharks. Are they really dangerous?. --190.50.71.175 (talk) 03:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * They can kill you (possibly if you're stung multiple times or are allergic) but the main problem is the extreme pain: being stung by one feels like a combination of pnemonia, having the shit beaten out of you and being set on fire. This can last for hours or days. Half  Shadow  03:13, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) The Irukandji Jellyfish article says they killed 2 people in Australia in 2002, whereas the shark attack article rather confusedly seems to be saying there are 4 or 5 human fatalities worldwide per year as a result of shark attacks. As for non-fatal injuries, looks like shark attacks on humans worldwide are 50-70 per year.  Those jellyfish may sting more people per year than that, but, as the article points out, often a sting-ee doesn't identify the source of the sting.  (Fixed your link in the section title.  You might get better readership from experts over at the Science desk with this type of question, BTW.)  Tempshill (talk) 03:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

plush toy idea
I feel there should be three Beagle Brigade plush toys available for purchase. Their names can be Phyto, Daisy and Jackpot. The money from the sales of each plush toy should go to animal shelters. I told the U.S. Department of Agriculture about my idea. They think it's ingenious, with the money going to animal shelters. I tried to contact Hartz Mountain about this matter. They never got back to me. Who else should I contact regarding this matter?69.203.157.50 (talk) 08:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This is definitely one for Dragons' Den.--Shantavira|feed me 08:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

How could Dragon's Den, which is based in the UK be of any help to my idea?69.203.157.50 (talk) 17:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It is trivial to get plush toys produced. You just have to decide how much you are willing to pay and how willing you are to ignore the conditions in which the toys are produced (as a rule, the cheaper the product, the worse the conditions for the workers). The "money from the sales" is the profit after paying the producer and very likely the shipping company. If you are suggesting that someone produce the toys for free so you can get credit for coming up with a great idea, you will likely find that nobody is willing to put hundreds of people to work with no pay. -- k a i n a w &trade; 18:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The American adaptation of Dragons' Den is Mark Burnett's Shark Tank. It premieres August 9 on ABC. Pepso2 (talk) 21:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

For your information, I have no intention of being a contestant on that reality show. How about a portion of the sales go to animal shelters? Is there anyone else I can turn to?69.203.157.50 (talk) 22:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It is very easy. That is why I used the phrase "It is trivial to get plush toys produced."  In case you don't understand, "trivial" means "so easy that it is not worth explaining."  Go to the store.  I'm sure you have at least one store that sells plush toys.  All those toys have little tags on them.  On the tag is the distributor and/or manufacturer.  Write them all down.  Then, use Google or Bing to look up a phone number for each company.  Call them.  Tell them that you want to make, say, 100,000 plush toys.  Ask how much it will cost.  They will give you a ballpark quote.  Some may hang up on you because they deal in millions of toys, not thousands.  Sign a contract with one of the companies to produce the toys.  Sell the toys.  Give part of your profits to the animal shelter.  As I stated, this is very easy.  The only problem is laziness.  If you are asking for someone else to find a company, call them, get a quote, sign the contract, and sell the toys ... it won't happen.  Other people have their own ideas to work on. --  k a i n a w &trade; 17:19, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Earliest Parliamentary candidature by a living person
Michael Foot, who is still alive, stood for the British Parliament at the 1935 UK general election. I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to find out whether anyone else who stood in the election is still alive, and also wondered whether this is an international record, or whether there is someone out there who stood for election to their nation's parliament earlier. Any thoughts? Warofdreams talk 15:38, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Edward "Ned" Fenlon was elected to the Michigan state legislature in 1933. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 17:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

How do Germans feel about Jews and the Holocaust?
For example, are they still anti-Semitic? --59.189.56.132 (talk) 17:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That's 60 million people you're talking about. Wouldn't you figure it varies from person to person? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 17:31, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course it does, but are there statistics about the general sentiment? --218.186.10.247 (talk) 17:40, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a question in the same vein at Reference desk/Miscellaneous -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 17:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

How do Japanese feel about Japanese actions in World War 2?
For example, do they think the invasions of Asian countries was an act of aggression or self-defence? --59.189.56.132 (talk) 17:28, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If your question is homework, show that you have attempted an answer first, and we will try to help you past the stuck point. If you don't show an effort, you probably won't get help. The reference desk will not do your homework for you. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 17:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure whether most ordinary Japanese under the age of 65 have strong opinions on the matter. However, there is a relatively small minority of right-wing nationalists in Japan who are extremely vocal -- and on a number of occasions, the Japanese government has taken actions in order to appease this ultra-nationalist fringe (for domestic political reasons) which have ended up having major negative foreign-relations repercussions (such as Yasukuni shrine visits, downplaying the Nanjing atrocities, etc.).  AnonMoos (talk) 22:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

How do Muslims feel about terrorism?
Do they support it? I think many Muslim communities, for example Singapore Muslims, would not. Are there any Muslim organisations that help fight terrorism and discourage Muslims from turning extremist? --59.189.56.132 (talk) 17:29, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There are certainly Muslim organization against terrorism. For instance, Council on American-Islamic Relations, British Muslims for Secular Democracy, etc. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 17:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * CAIR is actually not necessarily a very good example, since it seems to be surrounded in a continual cloud of controversy... AnonMoos (talk) 21:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Muslims in the UK are generally opposed to terrorism. It is only a few people on the fringes that support it. --Tango (talk) 19:17, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear 59.189.56.132 -- Your basic question is somewhat meaningless and unanswerable in the form in which you asked it, since there are hundreds of millions of Muslims with very diverse attitudes and diverse concerns. In many cases, the concrete specific details of local political or military events will be a lot more immediately relevant to people's lives than vaguely-defined and general terms such as "terrorism" considered philosophically in the abstract.


 * However, one little discrepancy which I find interesting is that during the middle ages, the mainstream consensus of Islamic legal interpretation was strongly in favor of regularized rules of war which would protect civilians in time of combat, etc. -- but nowadays there are extremely publicly prominent Muslim legal-religious scholars (such as Yusuf Qaradawi) who say that suicide attacks deliberately targeting Jewish women and children are fully acceptable according to Islamic law -- in fact, Qaradawi has said that the one and only reason that it can ever be permissible for a Muslim woman to go unveiled in public is if going unveiled helps her to kill Jews! In this particular case, the ethics and morality of Islamic legal interpretation by some professional scholars has certainly degenerated and gone backwards since the medieval period.  However, Qaradawi doesn't speak for, and is not necessary typical of, the many hundreds of millions of Muslims in the world... AnonMoos (talk) 21:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The Muslims I've known have been peace-loving. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 23:05, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I know Muslims (and Japanese and Germans) are not monolithic blocs and even Muslim subcommunities are not monolithic blocs. But there are many surveys which show that "X% of Community Y support Z", so surely there are some for Muslim subcommunities and their views towards terrorism? For example, I think we can safely say that Singapore Muslims are less supportive of terrorism than Arab Muslims, but by how much? Try exploring the issues instead of calling me a troll. --59.189.61.197 (talk) 07:55, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Unless there is any authoritative study on political attitudes of Singaporean Muslim community, it would be difficult to give any exact answer. Talking about the Muslim word in general, I think it is safe to state the following (based on completly unscientific guesses):
 * An overwhelming majority of the population in the Muslim world are not supporters of terrorism (unless one employs a definition ofn 'terrorism' produced by a pro-Israel think-tank).
 * Large sections of the population in the Muslim world (a majority?) feel that Western countries employ double standards, branding Islamic organizations as 'terrorist' and stereotyping Muslims in general as 'terrorists' whilst turning a blind eye on Israeli war crimes in Gaza or US war crimes in Iraq.

--Soman (talk) 14:14, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

How do whites feel about slavery, colonialism and all their racist crimes?
Are most whites still racist today? --59.189.56.132 (talk) 17:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What planet are you from? Don't you know many white people? Why are you cluttering this page with your nonsense? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 17:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course I have met many white people online and many of them are racist. But I am looking for facts and statistics. --59.189.56.132 (talk) 17:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note to admins-this section should be removed as race-baiting. Clearly the anon editor has an agenda to push. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 17:40, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * All sections made by the IP should be removed. Surtsicna (talk) 17:43, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, please don't feed the troll. TastyCakes (talk) 17:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm a numberist myself. Go away, you horrible digit. Half  Shadow  17:47, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Has the OP read our article on loaded questions? Livewireo (talk) 18:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I feel the OP needs to make a strong attempt to comprehend that people are individuals. There is no such thing as "how whites feel" or "how Jews feel" or "how blacks feel" because the entire race doesn't feel anything.  The individuals have feelings and there is never a case in which all of the individuals feel the same thing.  By continually making the accusation that every individual in the race be treated as a whole, the OP is demonstrating how extremely racist he or she is.  The only cure for racism is education.  If the OP is willing to learn, we can teach.  If the OP is a die-hard racist with no purpose but to try and get others into an argument, then ignore the racist troll. --  k a i n a w &trade; 18:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I haven't committed any racist crimes, thank you very much. --Tango (talk) 19:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Q: How do whites feel about slavery, colonialism and all their racist crimes? A: We're against them.
 * Any more questions? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 23:03, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree that the issue could be summed up that easily. Yes, I agree that the anon IP's 4 questions at WP:RDH are highly trollish (as multiple-questions-posted-by-anon-ip queries usually are), but similar queries have been posted in the past (albeit better formulated) and answered through actual debate. It is wrong to assume that any whole ethnic/racial groups shares a single pov on any issue, but the question can easily be reformulated to "what is the general opinion in the country X about the issue Y".

I don't know if there is any consensus on condemnation of colonialism amongst white people today, as implied by User:Baseball Bugs. First of all, its extremly difficult to define 'white people', there are no objective delimitations. If we are employ a definition that roughly covers most people in Europe, Australia, Canada and New Zealand plus white population of USA (as defined in census as 'Caucasian'), then my own hunch feeling is that: --Soman (talk) 14:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There would extremly few persons arguing in favour of the reintroduction of slavery. However, I don't think there is any overwhelming feeling of collective guilt (as in the case of German collective trauma over Holocaust guilt).
 * Generally, many Europeans (in several countries probably a broad majority) retain nostalgic feelings regarding the colonial era. The colonial ventures are often portrayed as 'spreading culture' rather than savage plundering. Colonial 'explorers' are celebrated as heros in histiography, whilst colonial atrocities are generally downplayed or outright excluded from history books in schools. Probably, rather few Europeans see any direct link between the colonial legacy of divide-and-conquer in colonies as defining factors of problems of Third World countries.
 * I'm not saying that the solution is to institutionalize collective guilt, but at least it should be recognized that colonialism & slavery has contributed to severe socio-economic injustices and racist social order that persist till today.
 * How do I feel about slavery, colonialism and racist crimes? I feel I didn't do any of them. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Times when world population have decreased...
I was reading the article on the Black Death just now, and the intro states that "The Black Death is estimated to have killed 30% to 60% of Europe's population, reducing the world's population from an estimated 450 million to between 350 and 375 million in 1400". This is a pretty stunning statement, that the plauge was so horrible that it significantly decreased the number of living humans. Has there been other events (plauges, wars, famines, whatever) where something has had an impact world population?

I found this chart in the article on world population, and it seems to show that it has essentially only happened twice: a rather sustained fall beginning around 500 BCE and continuing for a few hundred years after that, and a few times in the years 1000-2000 CE. The second one I assume is different outbreaks of the plauge (would that be a correct assumption?) but what is the first? I would be most grateful if someone could enlighten me and direct me to the apropriate articles. 83.250.236.75 (talk) 17:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you mean an impact where the world population decreased, or simply where it was significantly effected?  The demographics of Africa were (and are) significantly affected by AIDS, but absolute population hasn't gone down, it just hasn't increased as quickly.  There were also many deaths in North America after European contact - Wikipedia's article on the subject gives estimates as high as 140 million, but after the various diseases and wars the number of "natives" in the Americas was down to a tiny portion of that.  TastyCakes (talk) 17:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I was actually more interested in those events that where so catastrophic that world population actually decreased, but information on other events which have had a huge negative impact on demographics is certainly appriciated. 83.250.236.75 (talk) 17:59, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The 1918 flu pandemic killed 50 to 100 million of the 1.6 billion people in the world at the time. I don't know if births outweighed this at the time. Vimescarrot (talk) 18:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The Plague of Justinian may be part of the reason for the flat spot above "year 0" on the chart. What caused the decline before that though? One out of 38 people (2.6% of world population) were killed in the Second World War but it led to the Baby boom, not a decline. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 18:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course, Jutinian was 500 years or so after the BC/AD line (the non-existant "year 0")... -- Jayron  32  18:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm actually starting to suspect that it may just have been a poorly drawn chart (well, a chart based on poor information at least). The image-page for the chart states that it uses the same information as this chart (only drawn logarithmically), and that chart uses the lower estimates from this page. But if you look at the table at the Census Bureau-page, you see that most of the lower estimates comes from "The Atlas of World History" by McEvedy and Jones, but they don't have a stat for 400 BCE, so instead the lowest estimate comes from "An Essay Concerning Mankind's Evolution" by Biraben. But Birabens stats are consistently higher than McEvedy and Jones's, which makes the lower estimate "jump up" slighly during that time. Maybe there was no population decrease at all between 200 and 400 BCE, just that the table where the information came from was exceedingly poorly constructed. 83.250.236.75 (talk) 18:39, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If you want go back far enough, the Toba catastrophe 70,000 to 75,000 years ago may have reduced the population to as few as 10,000. (The article doesn't mention what it was before the event. The discussion page asks, but there's no definite answer.) Mitch Ames (talk) 13:23, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, don't forget the Castastrophe on June 6th, 1996. A mysterious explosion destroyed the Chernolton research facility near Moscow. Lucifer Alpha, a powerful biological weapon under secret development there was released into the atmosphere, creating a deadly biohazard. Carried by the trade winds, Lucifer Alpha spread through out Eastern Europe and Eurasia, destroying 80% of the populace. Half of the world's people died. Half  Shadow  18:11, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And for those people who missed the oblique reference to a 20 year old video game, read Snatcher. -- Jayron  32  18:29, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What do you mean game? Half  Shadow  18:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

The last time there is a recorded decline in the world population, equal to a stunning 25%, was Genesis 4:1-16 (Qur’an 5:26-32). Since then, births have out-weighed deaths. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I forgot about Noah. My bad. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Now there's a story Ark.
 * Let's not forget World War II, which between the wonton slaughter of soldiers and the mass murders of civilians made a notable dent in the human population. Not like the Black Death, but significant still. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 07:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmmm, wonton slaughter. --Sean 13:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Hitler's quote
Some time ago I red this quote in Wikiquote Anybody who sees and paints a sky green and pastures blue ought to be sterilized (in German it would be something like Wer sieht und malt ein Himmel grün und blau Felder müssen sterilisiert werden, just to guess). Now it's absent, I think because it was unsourced. Can someone verify if it's a real quote? It would be amazing if you could find the original German form and when it was actually said. --151.51.22.210 (talk) 18:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the first source given in the #1 Google hit for me is Dorothy Thompson, who attributed it to Hitler in the N.Y. Post, Jan 3, 1944. So apparently an unofficial (maybe even biased) source, then. - Jarry1250 [ In the UK? Sign the petition! ] 18:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It should be noted that Dorothy Thompson was very biased against Hitler, especially after being expelled from Germany. Her statements may be based in truth, but unless others make the same statements, I would assume she is exaggerating. --  k a i n a w &trade; 19:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The German seems very hard to track down, even just on the keywords (e.g. I would expect green and blue to equal grün and blau (with or without endings) regardless of the rest of the translation). So it probably didn't exist in that form, though Hitler's own views on modern art can be easily sourced. - Jarry1250 [ In the UK? Sign the petition! ] 19:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "Jedermann, das Blau sieht und malt ein Himmelgrün und auffängt, soll entkeimt werden." is the German apparently. Googling it now. - Jarry1250 [ In the UK? Sign the petition! ] 19:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 2 hits? Maybe not. - Jarry1250 [ In the UK? Sign the petition! ] 19:25, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Is anyone else reminded of the Blaues Gras cantata by P. D. Q. Bach? —Tamfang (talk) 04:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, he did, that is a quote from Mein Kampf. Trust me I have read it many many times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 19:29, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, where? I CTRL-F'd Reynal And Hitchcock's translation and couldn't get any hits :( - Jarry1250 [ In the UK? Sign the petition! ] 19:31, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think any of them do. It doesn't actually sound like Mein Kampf, to me. His discussion of compulsory sterilization is much more reserved in the book, and clings very tightly to the medicalized language of eugenics, at least in the editions I have seen. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 20:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It's an exaggerated paraphrase of something Hitler said in his speech at the opening of the first Große Deutsche Kunstausstellung (Great German Art Exhibition) in 1937, source. The quote is:


 * "Ich habe hier unter den eingeschickten Bildern manche Arbeiten beobachtet, bei denen tatsächlich angenommen werden muß, daß gewissen Menschen das Auge die Dinge anders zeigt als sie sind, d.h. daß es wirklich Männer gibt, die die heutigen Gestalten unseres Volkes nur als verkommene Kretins sehen, die grundsätzlich Wiesen blau, Himmel grün, Wolken schwefelgelb usw. empfinden oder, wie sie vielleicht sagen, erleben. Ich will mich nicht in einen Streit darüber einlassen, ob diese Betreffenden das nun wirklich so sehen und empfinden oder nicht, sondern ich möchte im Namen des deutschen Volkes es nur verbieten, daß so bedauerliche Unglückliche, die ersichtlich am Sehvermögen leiden, die Ergebnisse ihrer Fehlbetrachtungen der Mitwelt mit Gewalt als Wirklichkeit aufzuschwätzen versuchen, oder ihr gar als "Kunst" vorsetzen wollen. Nein, hier gibt es nur zwei Möglichkeiten: Entweder diese sogenannten "Künstler" sehen die Dinge wirklich so und glauben daher an das, was sie darstellen, dann wäre nur zu untersuchen, ob ihre Augenfehler entweder auf mechanische Weise oder durch Vererbung zustande gekommen sind. Im einen Fall tief bedauerlich für diese Unglücklichen, im zweiten wichtig für das Reichsinnenministerium, das sich dann mit der Frage zu beschäftigen hätte, wenigstens eine weitere Vererbung derartiger grauenhafter Sehstörungen zu unterbinden. Oder aber sie glauben selbst nicht an die Wirklichkeit solcher Eindrücke, sondern sie bemühen sich aus anderen Gründen, die Nation mit diesem Humbug zu belästigen, dann fällt so ein Vorgehen in das Gebiet der Strafrechtspflege."

Translation:
 * "I saw many works among the pictures submitted here for which it indeed has to be assumed that certain people's eyes show things differently than they are, this means that there are really men who see, or, as they may say, experience, the present-day body shapes of our Nation only as degenerate retards, who generally perceive meadows as blue, skies as green, clouds as sulphurous yellow, and so on. I do not want to argue whether the people concerned really see or perceive it like this, but I just want to prohibit in the name of the German Nation that these poor unfortunate people who clearly suffer with respect to their vision try to forcefully sell the results of their misconceptions to the public, or even declare it "art". No, there are only two possibilities: Either these so-called "artists" really see things in this way and hence believe in what they represent, then one just would have to investigate whether their eye problems were caused mechanically or through inheritance. In the former case very unfortunate for these poor people, in the latter case important for the Interior Department, which would then have to look at the issue of at least preventing a further inheritance of such dreadful vision problems. Or, they do not believe in the reality of these perceptions themselves but try for other reasons to harass the Nation with this nonsense, then this method of operation belongs into the area of criminal law."

It seems Dorothy Thompson is a rather more succint writer than Hitler... --Chl (talk) 19:23, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * See Degenerate Art. BrainyBabe (talk) 08:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Information requested by sweepstake forms
Why do they often ask age and gender for sweepstakes ? Is it to prevent certain categories people from winning ? (ie: a 79 old woman registers in a contest aimed at a teenage male audience) ? Rachmaninov Khan (talk) 20:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It's probably not for that reason, mainly because I am fairly sure they can't discriminate along the lines of gender and age (with the possible exception of minimum ages). It's probably because most sweepstakes are really ways to harvest addresses for advertising pitches, and knowing that kind of information (and often they ask what you household income is, as well) means they can sell targeted ad lists. Just my guess. (In reference to a US context in particular.) --98.217.14.211 (talk) 20:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * One way to find out is, if you have to give your name, give a fake middle initial, and see where that starts turning up. Then you know who they sold their mailing list to. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 23:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Religion,biography of William Temple
I want to know the biography of William Temple,archbishop of Caanterbury —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.13.24.13 (talk) 21:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See William Temple (archbishop). // BL \\ (talk) 21:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Third Punic War info request
Did the name of Byrsa hill, where Scipio Aemilianus Africanus besieged Carthage, have a meaning relating to Mars.--Doug Coldwell talk 21:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The article you linked to, Byrsa, says, "The name is derived from the Phoenician word for citadel." Do you have reason to doubt that? Deor (talk) 00:04, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I am sure that is correct. I have reason to believe that either that hill or another (apparently there were three additional blockades or "hills" protecting Byrsa) were referred to as Mar's hill. Citadel is correct as many ancient sources say this is the meaning for Byrsa. Perhaps one of Seven hills of Rome was referred to as the hill of Mars?--Doug Coldwell talk 11:44, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Problem solved. I found what I was looking for.--Doug Coldwell talk 12:24, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you would like to share the solution you have found with the rest of us. // BL \\ (talk) 17:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Right now I am studying various aspects of ancient history. I am reading from Livy, Polybius, and Plutarch. Mars hill turns out to be Areopagus, nothing to do with Scipio it turns out. Areopagus was the council of elders of the city, similar to the Roman Senate. So I guess one could say Areopagus (Greece) is the counterpart of the Roman Senate. --Doug Coldwell talk 22:26, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also I note that there is a reference to Mars in one of Seven hills of Rome, Palatine Hill.--Doug Coldwell talk 13:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also I note that there is a reference to it in Unknown God, if the King James Version (1611) had been used for the Acts of Apostles reference for verse 22. Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
 * I see that in verse 19 Areopagus is referenced. Areopagus in the List of Biblical names means "the hill of Mars."
 * KJV verse 19 reads: And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
 * Areopagus (Greece) is the counterpart of the Roman Senate? --Doug Coldwell talk 16:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also apparently the Temple of Mars was at the location of Temple of Jupiter (Capitoline Hill) prior.--Doug Coldwell talk 18:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also apparently Cato the Elder made reference to Mars as pointed out in Mars (mythology): For your cattle, for them to be healthy, make this sacrifice to Mars Silvanus you must make this sacrifice each year. Apparently it is believed that all Romans are descendants of Mars.
 * Also there seems to have been a Temple of Mars Ultor in Rome, that Wikipedia has an article on.--Doug Coldwell talk 18:44, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Pope Re Abortion
Is it true that the Pope refused to allow a 9 year old rape victon to have an abortion? Did a brazilian archbishop at the center of the controversey get excommunicated? --- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.22.7 (talk) 23:59, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * As far as I can tell, the abortion was long over before the Pope received word and commented. This recent article states that the doctor and the girl's parents are excommunicate. The girl herself is not as she is too young to have been responsible for the decision. As for the archbishop, why would he have been penalized at all? He was entirely on side with the official doctrine. // BL \\ (talk) 00:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd be less worried about the current pope if he didn't look like the preacher from Poltergeist II... Half  Shadow  00:20, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * To me, he looks more like Emperor Palpatine Llamabr (talk) 21:22, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Only the girl's mother, and not her father/rapist, was excommunicated (along with the doctors). I don't know anything about the Pope's involvement, but higher-ups including a cardinal for Latin America supported the archbishop's move, which was consistent with Catholic abortion doctrine.  --Sean 13:47, 3 August 2009 (UTC)